Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Louisa Bannon]

Now changing party is also not needed since the are movements inside the democratic party that are getting people elected that are disconnected from the old guard and also don't seek the some financial sponsors, they are also more left leaning. Change happens over time and again despite your love for communism unless you want a bloody revolution that ends up hurting the people more in the long run you need to give these things time.

Good one...

There's been plenty of time in the last 50 years for the Dems to change direction. They have not. Now while the GOP has never gotten my vote, now the Dems don't either.

I get what's happening. I understand that both major parties are on the right (something people argued about even just yesterday). I get that since at least the days of the Clintons that "counter-scheduling" has been used to kick the more truly leftist part of the Dems in the face. I get that voters went to the primaries and voted for whomever they saw fit, for whatever reason.

I mean, sure listen to Clyburn. Vote like your mama wants you to. He got your vote for Biden in the primaries so for at least the next few months Clyburn can tell you that your paychecks can wait and he has more important shit to do while you get kicked out of a rental, have the utilities shut off, get foreclosed upon, etc.

Over there, Bernie is asking his own delegates to take a pledge to support Biden and not just boo him as they did Hilary.

Yes, it's all being managed quite carefully. Just bow your head and we can slip this collar and lead over it...

It's all good. I understand that I do not have representation. But nobody gets my vote for free. Maybe I just throw it away, or vote third party. Everybody else gets what they want from the situation, and so do I - at least under the circumstances. If Biden wins, okay. If Trump, fine.

[Felya]

Voting for democrats won't change anything either, what is your point? You hate democracy so much that people can't support people that actually want change?

What the fuck are you talking about? Biden will pass violence against women act, that GOP has been blocking since last year. Biden will not inhibit mail in voting or threaten states that dare to send out sign ups for it. Everything you are claiming to care about, will be worse if people listen to your ignorance and vote 3rd or nothing. Your position is of a reactionary, that doesn’t actually care.

[Machismo]

Good one...

There's been plenty of time in the last 50 years for the Dems to change direction. They have not. Now while the GOP has never gotten my vote, now the Dems don't either.

I get what's happening. I understand that both major parties are on the right (something people argued about even just yesterday). I get that since at least the days of the Clintons that "counter-scheduling" has been used to kick the more truly leftist part of the Dems in the face. I get that voters went to the primaries and voted for whomever they saw fit, for whatever reason.

I mean, sure listen to Clyburn. Vote like your mama wants you to. He got your vote for Biden in the primaries so for at least the next few months Clyburn can tell you that your paychecks can wait and he has more important shit to do while you get kicked out of a rental, have the utilities shut off, get foreclosed upon, etc.

Over there, Bernie is asking his own delegates to take a pledge to support Biden and not just boo him as they did Hilary.

Yes, it's all being managed quite carefully. Just bow your head and we can slip this collar and lead over it...

It's all good. I understand that I do not have representation. But nobody gets my vote for free. Maybe I just throw it away, or vote third party. Everybody else gets what they want from the situation, and so do I - at least under the circumstances. If Biden wins, okay. If Trump, fine.

So, are you saying that Democrats supported gay marriage 50 years ago?

[Felya]

Personally I don't understand this insistence that I see made by some people claiming that you can't support LGBTQ rights if you put more focus on worker rights or stronger and more robust social security.

You do know that LGBTQ rights are a part of workers rights?

https://www.glaad.org/tap/donald-trump

[Machismo]

I recall you explaining that you'd rather not Biden had won the nomination.

I'm sure you have reasons for that and that is because Biden isn't strong enough in certain policies and stances that you'd prefer. Likewise for many people Biden is even worse than that and offers so little that it just isn't interesting enough to vote for him.

I mean, you can moan and complain and try to over-rationalize why that is and why all of that is a bad decision, but in the end, what truly matters de facto, is the fact that a big part of the US population, the ones currently getting raked over the coals by the Democratic Party for not adhering to party unity, isn't willing to vote for a conservative.

Part of the US population decided that they wanted to present a conservative nominee for the Democratic Party. That is fine, that is their choice, but they must then also take responsibility for the fact that they won't get a part of the progressive vote because of it. You can't force your shit down people's throat nor should you harass them for not wanting to vote conservative Biden into office.

Biden isn't a conservative.

That is simply a lie.

[Acidbaron]

Good one...

There's been plenty of time in the last 50 years for the Dems to change direction. They have not. Now while the GOP has never gotten my vote, now the Dems don't either.

I get what's happening. I understand that both major parties are on the right (something people argued about even just yesterday). I get that since at least the days of the Clintons that "counter-scheduling" has been used to kick the more truly leftist part of the Dems in the face. I get that voters went to the primaries and voted for whomever they saw fit, for whatever reason.

I mean, sure listen to Clyburn. Vote like your mama wants you to. He got your vote for Biden in the primaries so for at least the next few months Clyburn can tell you that your paychecks can wait and he has more important shit to do while you get kicked out of a rental, have the utilities shut off, get foreclosed upon, etc.

Over there, Bernie is asking his own delegates to take a pledge to support Biden and not just boo him as they did Hilary.

Yes, it's all being managed quite carefully. Just bow your head and we can slip this collar and lead over it...

It's all good. I understand that I do not have representation. But nobody gets my vote for free. Maybe I just throw it away, or vote third party. Everybody else gets what they want from the situation, and so do I - at least under the circumstances. If Biden wins, okay. If Trump, fine.

From what i am reading, knowing i do not live there and my interest in US politics is limited to events that have a global impact.
I do see change coming and i find it the wrong way to go about it all thinking that in action will lead to the changes you want.

What you must understand is that even if it is not your guy on that seat, you are still winning more this way by having your party in control of the white house. It might be miniscule but that small bump is more worth it than it being a negative outcome.

Now i can lecture you of how my political party rebuild and reformed it self a few times through out history now becoming the biggest block in the region but i am not going to, if you want change you're going to have to deal with a slow process and a lot of people in top positions you do not like. that's reality.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

Citations needed.

Just look at any response to Charlotte Clymer or the Human Rights Campaign twitter account. Look at someone like Chase Strangio, the ACLU lawyer fighting the anti-trans bills that have sprung up complaining about the complete lack of disengagement from the Sanders campaign. Another idea would be to look at the shoestring budgets of outlying LGBTQ orgs fighting these bills. Yet another would be to note the entire purpose of "the left" was to destroy and replace the Democratic establishment -- which includes every LGBTQ policy org.

It shouldn't be a choice between trying to help the poor or trying to help LGBTQ rights. Both can be done at the same time.

You do realize that social conservatism is tied up heavily in the white working class and that it's pretty much impossible to find a working alliance with them without throwing out initiatives on minority rights, don't you?

- - - Updated - - -

Biden isn't a conservative.

That is simply a lie.

That and mainline Democrats are way better on, in particular, trans rights than the Bernie left is.

[AntiFascistVoter]

So, are you saying that Democrats supported gay marriage 50 years ago?

Man, I still have whiplash from 2008.

Obama elected
Gay marriage still illegal
Recreational Weed still illegal.


2020
Weed is legal
Haircuts are illegal.

The hippies won!

[Felya]

I recall you explaining that you'd rather not Biden had won the nomination.

Indeed... there was always a caveat...

I'm sure you have reasons for that and that is because Biden isn't strong enough in certain policies and stances that you'd prefer. Likewise for many people Biden is even worse than that and offers so little that it just isn't interesting enough to vote for him.

No, it’s because Trump is unlike anything in American history. That’s the caveat...

I mean, you can moan and complain and try to over-rationalize why that is and why all of that is a bad decision, but in the end, what truly matters de facto, is the fact that a big part of the US population, the ones currently getting raked over the coals by the Democratic Party for not adhering to party unity, isn't willing to vote for a conservative.

*look$ at Trump* Uhm... over rationalize? Are you sure?

Part of the US population decided that they wanted to present a conservative nominee for the Democratic Party. That is fine, that is their choice, but they must then also take responsibility for the fact that they won't get a part of the progressive vote because of it. You can't force your shit down people's throat nor should you harass them for not wanting to vote conservative Biden into office.

No, Biden is objectively progressive when standing next to Trump. Self proclaimed progressives such as your self, don’t understand the Overton window, making them reactionaries.

Edit: ‘I will fly to US to vote Trump as a progressive, because Bernie lost’ is reactionary... not progressive...

[infinitemeridian]

This seems fairly accurate to me. What's astonishing is that this information is presented dispassionately, but as you say Team Blue folks will lose their minds over it instead of trying to figure what to do instead.

I liken people voting for Trump similar to what Taibbi calls the "fuck you vote" in Hate Inc, IIRC. And if Howard Stern is to be believed, I think the disdain goes both ways. Trump's voters don't like him, and he doesn't like them in return either. Yeah, they know he's an asshole. Yes, they probably think he's corrupt and a Russian mob money launderer via real estate and other investments. They don't care. They vote for him because its their way of making note of the degree to which they have stopped giving a shit. I personally have a lot of sympathy with that attitude. Point being: if I don't get what I want, I sure the hell am not doing anyone else any favors either. I owe others nothing.

Now that's not how it should be, but that's the state of politics in the U.S right now. It's just too many decades of corruption and being told to wait one's turn. That turn is not forthcoming, not while they create disasters every 15-20 years to hollow us out. Just be sure to keep your retirement invested with Wall Street so they can keep playing casino with your old age funds. Hey, if things go sour you can be a greeter at Walmart.

So what could the Dems do? Well, they could go full-throated FDR - but they absolutely refuse to do that.

Here's the thing that continually astonishes me: 70% of americans support some kind of single-payer, national health service type thing. Are the Dems, leftists that they supposedly are, offering that this year? As we are in the midst of a pandemic they are offering that for sure, right? No, sadly Biden is in the pocket of the health insurance companies so the answer is "Fuck no!"

Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts (oh, how the mighty fall to ID politics quackery):

I guess we could do a break down of those many bipartisan bailout plans that helped middle-class America thanks to the Dem's superb political acumen. Oh wait, no - none of that happened (countdown to mention of a onet-time $1200 stimulus because that covers all sins, we are bought cheaply these days). In fact, the Dems just keep kicking anyone with good ideas in the face. We ain't got time for that shit, Pelosi has to hurry home to a freezer full of choco ice cream.

And so it goes...

Most Americans these days vote to own the other side. Voting for Biden doesn't "own" Trump in the same as voting Trump "owns" Biden and the dems. It's really that simple and dems just continue to write walls of text on policy (see Biden's website - it's fucking awful) that most people don't read / or care about.

The only way to beat Trump is to run on big ideas and actually trying to give people material things that they understand (i.e., M4A, free college, etc.). Dems thinking they can win an election by running on platitudes ("American leadership", "Restoring dignity to the white house", etc.) or shit people don't care about / understand (means-testing / general wonkery) is just a terrible strategy.

Now they could very will win this - but it won't be because they have a winning strategy but rather because the economy / covid-19 will be a deciding factor.

[Flarelaine]

I don't believe in any of this.

Go to any "leftist" community out there and they are the most outspoken about LGBTQ rights and issues than any other people I know.

The two accounts are easy to reconcile - you claim they speak about LGBTQ rights, @GreenGoldSharpie claims they don't do a thing. The two can be true at the same time.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

I don't believe in any of this.

Good for you. I mean, totally shocking rebuttal and all, but given you're nothing but another bomb thrower who apparently lacks the intuition to understand that American civil liberties for minorities are entirely dependent on government enforcement, and that blowing up the one party responsible for enacting that enforcement might actually piss off minorities.

Particularly when you've never actually done anything for those minorities.

Go to any "leftist" community out there and they are the most outspoken about LGBTQ rights and issues than any other people I know.

Except, of course, the citations made. But, then, the DSA is full of young white kids making close to, on average, $100k. What does a Brooklyn hipster understand about the queer kid growing up in a trade unionist's home in the Midwest? Hell, a bunch of them declared Buttigieg isn't queer enough, but someone like me has a lot more in common with him than not. Yet, I still get to sit back and watch the so-called left try to recruit the collection of religious nutjobs, vicious homophobes, and self-absorbed fools who make up the white working class in the Midwest.

I'm going to posit that you don't understand a fucking thing about this country and how it works.

[Machismo]

And Trump is objectively progressive when standing next to Hitler. The main argument made here by you or the other Biden-supporters is void of any substance or morality.

Establishment Democrats are just boring reactionaries without even realizing it, seemingly.

And yet... you called Biden a conservative.

Also, you are the reactionary... which is why we have a supposed Bernie supporter shilling for Trump. Man, your self-owns are the best.

[Louisa Bannon]

So, are you saying that Democrats supported gay marriage 50 years ago?

These identity politics don't interest me that much. Just fix it in Title 42 and be done with it.

In fact, what annoys is how these issues are used purely for the sake of expediency, and the hypocrisy of our glorious leader be damned. I have read articles explaining to me how I can still vote Biden even though he's probably as big a sexual assault fuckup as Kavanaugh. Personally, I'd prefer to have people with cleaner hands as either a justice on SCOTUS or the person sitting in the oval office.

[Machismo]

These identity politics don't interest me that much. Just fix it in Title 42 and be done with it.

In fact, what annoys is how these issues are used purely for the sake of expediency, and the hypocrisy of our glorious leader be damned. I have read articles explaining to me how I can still vote Biden even though he's probably as big a sexual assault fuckup as Kavanaugh. Personally, I'd prefer to have people with cleaner hands as either a justice on SCOTUS or the person sitting in the oval office.

It's not identity politics... it's literally an abuse of civil rights that was being perpetrated, and is now fixed.

You claimed that they have not changed, but as we can clearly see, that's not the case. In reality, you are saying you are not interested in the changes.

Now, if you had said you don't want to vote for people who may be sexual assaulters, that's fine. But, that was not your comment. You were railing on about how Democrats haven't changed in 50 years. This is simply a deflection on your part.

[AntiFascistVoter]

Just look at any response to Charlotte Clymer or the Human Rights Campaign twitter account. Look at someone like Chase Strangio, the ACLU lawyer fighting the anti-trans bills that have sprung up complaining about the complete lack of disengagement from the Sanders campaign. Another idea would be to look at the shoestring budgets of outlying LGBTQ orgs fighting these bills. Yet another would be to note the entire purpose of "the left" was to destroy and replace the Democratic establishment -- which includes every LGBTQ policy org.


That and mainline Democrats are way better on, in particular, trans rights than the Bernie left is.

No to mention just a few weeks ago. Former BErnie spokesperson, Brianha Joy Grey, was trashing Charlotte and Danica Roem.


Dems are better off without Bri and her toxic fanclub.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

Frankly, I don't care.

We know you don't. That's evident in that you clearly don't recognize that the Midwestern white working has been absolutely brutal to minority communities and has shown no willingness to form any sort of coalition. It doesn't matter how you think it should work. Deal with how it does. We're not going to sacrifice ourselves for people who made our lives miserable and still are in many states.

- - - Updated - - -

No to mention just a few weeks ago. Former BErnie spokesperson, Brianha Joy Grey, was trashing Charlotte and Danica Roem.


Dems are better off without Bri and her toxic fanclub.

Of course we are. They don't actually do anything but engage in slackivism anyway. It's all about positioning themselves rather than doing anything. Once we return to work I'll be certified and I fully intend to become a steward in my local. Betting that's more than most of the workers rights folks on here have done.

[Muzjhath]

We know you don't. That's evident in that you clearly don't recognize that the Midwestern white working has been absolutely brutal to minority communities and has shown no willingness to form any sort of coalition. It doesn't matter how you think it should work. Deal with how it does. We're not going to sacrifice ourselves for people who made our lives miserable and still are in many states.

What needs to be remembered is that in a lot of the midwest, and even rural new-england, badly educated white people. Often "working class" fly the Confederate flag because it represents their values. Even when they were on the union side of that conflict.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

What needs to be remembered is that in a lot of the midwest, and even rural new-england, badly educated white people. Often "working class" fly the Confederate flag because it represents their values. Even when they were on the union side of that conflict.

Exactly. Pretending that these gaping social wounds don't exist in the name of class solidarity doesn't mean they don't exist. It also tends to piss off the people working for minority rights when you pretend their struggles aren't real.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

Which is not very conductive behavior, considering it will only encourage 'the other side' to keep on doing the same thing. You keep treating them like they treat you and every new generation that grows up will just look over at you and see how you're unwilling to cooperate 'for reasons'.

I'm obviously an outsider and sure I won't have this grasp of a long history of animosity between the two groups, but it makes it a whole lot easier for me to see how bullshit it is and that neither side is then behaving in an adult manner.

Yeah, because you pretending to be above it just really changes the fact that the reply to an open hand is crazy ass legislation and court filings. When does the Title VII decision drop again?