Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[AntiFascistVoter]

For fuck's sake...

You need better tankie sources. But lies and deception seem to be your thing.



Of course Jordan Uhl cropped the bullet point right before this one.

[Louisa Bannon]

Biden isn't a conservative.

Again, Obama self-described his own economic policies as those of a moderate republican. Biden is currently trying to milk that legacy and association telling Wall Street types that nothing will fundamentally change for them.

But he's not a conservative? Well, what do you want to call it?

I might agree to the extent that he is obviously an opportunist that is for sale, so whichever way the wind blows is fine for him. The hand is out...

The Senator from MBNA...so cool, that really makes me want to vote for him!!! (this is sarchasm)

What you must understand is that even if it is not your guy on that seat, you are still winning more this way by having your party in control of the white house. It might be miniscule but that small bump is more worth it than it being a negative outcome.

I have to disagree.

There were several people that ran that would have had me voting Dem, Biden is literally the one for whom I refuse to vote because of his crazy long record of shit I wholeheartedly disagree with.

I would have voted for any of the following and actually been happy with it to some degree: Elizabeth Warren, Jay Inslee, Michael Bennet, Eric Swalwell, Kamala Harris (despite being SF Dem machine gross) and even maybe Andrew Yang (purely for outsider charm). These candidates all surely have faults, but I am not looking for the motes in their eyes when I can see a beam sticking out of Biden's.

Edit: I saw a lot of these folks interviewed by Rachel Maddow on her show and I actually think most of them have true political charisma despite possible flaws. Obviously the one Rachel has girl-wood over is Amy Klobuchar, But I just find her too conservative and narrow focused.

The Dems had to go all cynical on this one. No, trust me - this is a type of "counter-scheduling." The "left" is being shown its place.

I take it and my vote with me.

[Machismo]

Again, Obama self-described his own economic policies as those of a moderate republican. Biden is currently trying to milk that legacy and association telling Wall Street types that nothing will fundamentally change for them.

But he's not a conservative? Well, what do you want to call it?

I might agree to the extent that he is obviously an opportunist that is for sale, so whichever way the wind blows is fine for him. The hand is out...

The Senator from MBNA...so cool, that really makes me want to vote for him!!! (this is sarchasm)



I have to disagree.

There were several people that ran that would have had me voting Dem, Biden is literally the one for whom I refuse to vote because of his crazy long record of shit I wholeheartedly disagree with.

I would have voted for any of the following and actually been happy with it to some degree: Elizabeth Warren, Jay Inslee, Michael Bennet, Eric Swalwell, Kamala Harris (despite being SF Dem machine gross) and even maybe Andrew Yang (purely for outsider charm). These candidates all surely have faults, but I am not looking for the motes in their eyes when I can see a beam sticking out of Biden's.

The Dems had to go all cynical on this one. No, trust me - this is a type of "counter-scheduling." The "left" is being shown its place.

I take it and my vote with me.

I'd call him a moderate Democrat, a centrist. Hell, Republicans aren't even conservatives when it comes to economic policies.

And yes, I noticed your name for him is literally a Republican talking point. There's some pretty sweet irony right there.

As for pointing to him as being a political windsock... that shows that the Democratic Party has changed. You just argued against your own previous statement.

[AntiFascistVoter]

I'd call him a moderate Democrat, a centrist. Hell, Republicans aren't even conservatives when it comes to economic policies.

And yes, I noticed your name for him is literally a Republican talking point. There's some pretty sweet irony right there.

As for pointing to him as being a political windsock... that shows that the Democratic Party has changed. You just argued against your own previous statement.

It's uncanny how all these anti-Biden posters sound exactly like a person that watches Fox News all day.

Moreso for the self-styled "I'm from Europe" posters, that seem to watch an awful lot of Fox News for supposedly being thousands of miles away.

[Louisa Bannon]

And yes, I noticed your name for him is literally a Republican talking point. There's some pretty sweet irony right there.

Not that much...

“I got in that fight because [families] just didn’t have anyone — and Joe Biden was on the side of the credit card companies,” Warren said
...
While MBNA, the credit card company based in Delaware, was pushing the legislation, Biden faced charges of being too close to the company. “I’m not the senator from MBNA,” he protested to the Washington Post in 1999. Three years earlier, his son Hunter Biden had joined MBNA as a senior official. In 2001, Hunter Biden became a federal lobbyist, but stayed on at MBNA as a consultant at a fee of $100,000 per year.

https://theintercept.com/2019/10/14/...nkruptcy-women

As for pointing to him as being a political windsock... that shows that the Democratic Party has changed. You just argued against your own previous statement.

Doesn't the buyer have to have means? I think its a limited group to whom he might appeal. Not quite a windsock, but the hand is still out...

[Shadowferal]

Gotta agree with Louisa.
Obama was hard on the Clinton bandwagon. And that former admin movrd the centrist point rightward.
Clinton needed legislative wins and he wasn't going to get it with the GOP in full control of House and Senate. So he adopted Conservative policies such as balancing the budget, NAFTA, welfare reform, and the GOP detested him for it. As a result conservatives went further rightward as we saw with GWB and now the current clown show.

Give Biden points for forcing Obama on support of the rainbow flag, but I wouldn't go much further.

[Louisa Bannon]

It's uncanny how all these anti-Biden posters sound exactly like a person that watches Fox News all day.

What's uncanny is that I have never willing watched Fox news except perhaps at a Doctor's office or a pizzeria or some other captive place.

You could grant some of us the simple courtesy of taking our own assertions at face value. This is an old account. Yes, over time I have experienced some bans for various things. I am not always on here. But I didn't just invent this avatar just to annoy any of you.

Sure, maybe I'm a disgruntled leftist. But calling me a Trump follower, or fox news watcher, or whatever is just nuts.

I used to listen to Air America, read Daily Kos, Atrios, Get Your War On, The World Tomorrow, Conceptual Guerilla, Steve Gilliard, and watch Rachel Maddow almost every night. I listened to Bag Man, read Blowout, etc. It's all bullshit...gotta fill those hours on the air, online, on TV, and in print. Not all of it is top rate material, some is just interesting or fun.

Withholding my vote is the only thing a person in my situation can do, so I am doing that thing. It doesn't make me right-wing, sorry to disappoint.

[Machismo]

Not that much...

“I got in that fight because [families] just didn’t have anyone — and Joe Biden was on the side of the credit card companies,” Warren said
...
While MBNA, the credit card company based in Delaware, was pushing the legislation, Biden faced charges of being too close to the company. “I’m not the senator from MBNA,” he protested to the Washington Post in 1999. Three years earlier, his son Hunter Biden had joined MBNA as a senior official. In 2001, Hunter Biden became a federal lobbyist, but stayed on at MBNA as a consultant at a fee of $100,000 per year.

https://theintercept.com/2019/10/14/...en/?comments=1


Doesn't the buyer have to have means? I think its a limited group to whom he might appeal. Not quite a windsock, but the hand is still out...

Except, it is literally what he was called by the National Review... they started it.

Let's not forget, our conversation started with you saying the Democrats have not changed in 50 years, and I brought up one example... and you said you didn't care.

[Acidbaron]

I have to disagree.

There were several people that ran that would have had me voting Dem, Biden is literally the one for whom I refuse to vote because of his crazy long record of shit I wholeheartedly disagree with.

I would have voted for any of the following and actually been happy with it to some degree: Elizabeth Warren, Jay Inslee, Michael Bennet, Eric Swalwell, Kamala Harris (despite being SF Dem machine gross) and even maybe Andrew Yang (purely for outsider charm). These candidates all surely have faults, but I am not looking for the motes in their eyes when I can see a beam sticking out of Biden's.

Edit: I saw a lot of these folks interviewed by Rachel Maddow on her show and I actually think most of them have true political charisma despite possible flaws. Obviously the one Rachel has girl-wood over is Amy Klobuchar, But I just find her too conservative and narrow focused.

The Dems had to go all cynical on this one. No, trust me - this is a type of "counter-scheduling." The "left" is being shown its place.

I take it and my vote with me.

I don't see how this is being done to show "the left" their place inside the party, considering how the party itself is turning more left.

You are looking at this from an ideological stand point, while i think most people who voted for Biden are looking at this from a practical standpoint of who can really win the national election. Every step of the way it also seems that the Biden delegation is trying to pander to that "left".

So with all due respect i fear it might be you who have grown far too cynical on this, not the party.

It is your right to do whatever you please with your vote, but with that also come the consequences and this is why people here give you a hard time. Because they have a hard time understanding why you would self-sabotage some progress with a democratic victory if you can't have the victory you want, turning politics into something very binary what it is not.
But i do understand not wanting to vote for a person, i have a list of people who in my opinion have a bad track record and i consider people who committed "treason" to my ideals and believes, then again i also never had to worry that my nation would end up 4 more years in the hands of a person and party who has been attacking the foundations of my nation on multiple levels.

And sadly the reality is, if you abstain this can be counted as direct support for trump because republicans have an edge if turn out is lower. That doesn't mean you support trump but your actions will work out in his favour. That is something you have to keep in the back of your head.

[Endus]

I don't see how this is being done to show "the left" their place inside the party, considering how the party itself is turning more left.

You are looking at this from an ideological stand point, while i think most people who voted for Biden are looking at this from a practical standpoint of who can really win the national election. Every step of the way it also seems that the Biden delegation is trying to pander to that "left".

Also, the practical reality that the only way to effect ideological change in a party is from within.

If you're sulking at home and not going to the polls, congrats, you're irrelevant and nobody either knows what you feel, nor do they have any reason whatsoever to care. You're removing yourself from the discussion, rather than making your point and working for change. It isn't a noble stand against The Establishment, it's a resounding "meh, do whatever, I don't care enough to do anything".

[GreenGoldSharpie]

It's uncanny how all these anti-Biden posters sound exactly like a person that watches Fox News all day.

Moreso for the self-styled "I'm from Europe" posters, that seem to watch an awful lot of Fox News for supposedly being thousands of miles away.

I think it's a lot less complicated than that. The anti-Biden left defines everything on an economic axis. The American left functions on a number of different axes coalitioned together. They assumed they could operate without the rest of us, and it wasn't even enough to win the primary.

[Edge-]

You need better tankie sources. But lies and deception seem to be your thing.



Of course Jordan Uhl cropped the bullet point right before this one.

I am so aggressively not shocked or surprised Rochana is sharing easily debunked, edited screencaps of bullshit. No wonder they never link to their sources, because that would make debunking them even easier.

- - - Updated - - -

Gotta agree with Louisa.
Obama was hard on the Clinton bandwagon. And that former admin movrd the centrist point rightward.
Clinton needed legislative wins and he wasn't going to get it with the GOP in full control of House and Senate. So he adopted Conservative policies such as balancing the budget, NAFTA, welfare reform, and the GOP detested him for it. As a result conservatives went further rightward as we saw with GWB and now the current clown show.

Give Biden points for forcing Obama on support of the rainbow flag, but I wouldn't go much further.

This is a pretty insane theory, dude. You think Obama tanked the last few years of his presidency...for Clinton? Really?

[Louisa Bannon]

Except, it is literally what he was called by the National Review... they started it.

You need a smiley sticker or something...? FWIW, I knew this IMPORTANT fact. It doesn't change that its more recent usage was the link I showed and that Warren was pointing up this shit in the earlier debates when Biden looked like a zombie.

Let's not forget, our conversation started with you saying the Democrats have not changed in 50 years, and I brought up one example... and you said you didn't care.

All I meant is that once they started moving to the right, it hasn't stopped. Now, they no longer represent any of my views.

I am not choosing between GOP and GOP-Lite.

Have you ever had GOP-Lite?

[Machismo]

You need a smiley sticker or something...? FWIW, I knew this IMPORTANT fact. It doesn't change that its more recent usage was the link I showed and that Warren was pointing up this shit in the earlier debates when Biden looked like a zombie.


All I meant is that once they started moving to the right, it hasn't stopped. Now, they no longer represent any of my views.

So, we've gone from them supposedly not changing... to them being political windsocks, to them supposedly shifting to the right? Jesus, you people really need to get your narrative straight.

Once again, the legalization of gay marriage disagrees with you. That's just a single issue.

Oddly enough, Trumpsters who pretend to have morals scream about how they'd totally support Democrats, except Democrats have shifted way to the left. They swear they only vote for Trump, because they feel abandoned.

[Acidbaron]

Also, the practical reality that the only way to effect ideological change in a party is from within.

If you're sulking at home and not going to the polls, congrats, you're irrelevant and nobody either knows what you feel, nor do they have any reason whatsoever to care. You're removing yourself from the discussion, rather than making your point and working for change. It isn't a noble stand against The Establishment, it's a resounding "meh, do whatever, I don't care enough to do anything".

Indeed, that's what i pointed out a few times you don't get change from the outside. If you don't make noise inside the party if you don't challenge ideas and believes the party but instead remove yourself to the side line the party is not going to change because why would it?

Because those who oppose it remove themselves what means the party can turn into an echo chamber. It is even a bit odd that Americans don't see this if we take a look of what happened to the GOP from when Obama took office, to the tea party, to the trump nomination and presidency. People either removed themselves or got bullied out with a rather disastrous outcome for the party now and especially post the cult of trump. People are already losing donators and voters right now inside that party.

But i do get it is a thin line between supporting your party for the sake of progress and opposing it, i can understand some of the sentiment why people do not wish to support Biden, but at the end of the day there is quite a bit more at stake for the US here.

[AntiFascistVoter]

I think it's a lot less complicated than that. The anti-Biden left defines everything on an economic axis. The American left functions on a number of different axes coalitioned together. They assumed they could operate without the rest of us, and it wasn't even enough to win the primary.

I agree partly. The American left is definitely a unique thing. Mostly because it is the most diverse coalition out there.

These reactionaries on the left and right both hate diversity. They lack the empathy to understand it's benefit. It's sad and revealing to see how an highly empathic person like Biden, totally befuddles them. Causing them to lash out mostly with lies and conspiracies.

Biden actually cares about everyone -- even the 30% who think he doesn't care about them; and Trump doesn't care about anyone -- even the 42% who think he does.

Buried in yesterday's Quinnipiac Poll:

Does the presidential candidates care about average Americans:

Trump

• yes 42%
• no 56%

Biden

• yes 61%
• no 30%

[Louisa Bannon]

So, we've gone from them supposedly not changing... to them being political windsocks, to them supposedly shifting to the right? Jesus, you people really need to get your narrative straight.

I don't think anything I've said has shifted at all, you just focus on points that aren't important.

I called Biden an opportunist with his hand out, you called him a Windsock. We finessed it I guess.

I said the party was another party right of center, perhaps not as far right as the GOP.

You want to pick at nits for reasons I don't care to speculate upon.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the practical reality that the only way to effect ideological change in a party is from within.

Nope, counter-scheduling makes sure you get shamed and cast out.

If you're sulking at home and not going to the polls, congrats, you're irrelevant and nobody either knows what you feel, nor do they have any reason whatsoever to care. You're removing yourself from the discussion, rather than making your point and working for change. It isn't a noble stand against The Establishment, it's a resounding "meh, do whatever, I don't care enough to do anything".

I generally vote, I just don't vote for assholes.

Try again, Endus. You're so smart...

[Machismo]

I don't think anything I've said has shifted at all, you just focus on points that aren't important.

I called Biden an opportunist with his hand out, you called him a Windsock. We finessed it I guess.

I said the party was another party right of center, perhaps not as far right as the GOP.

You want to pick at nits for reasons I don't care to speculate upon.

And yet, on the stance of gay marriage alone, that undermines your argument. Your only response... you don't care.

Good one...

There's been plenty of time in the last 50 years for the Dems to change direction. They have not. Now while the GOP has never gotten my vote, now the Dems don't either.

I get what's happening. I understand that both major parties are on the right (something people argued about even just yesterday). I get that since at least the days of the Clintons that "counter-scheduling" has been used to kick the more truly leftist part of the Dems in the face. I get that voters went to the primaries and voted for whomever they saw fit, for whatever reason.

I mean, sure listen to Clyburn. Vote like your mama wants you to. He got your vote for Biden in the primaries so for at least the next few months Clyburn can tell you that your paychecks can wait and he has more important shit to do while you get kicked out of a rental, have the utilities shut off, get foreclosed upon, etc.

Over there, Bernie is asking his own delegates to take a pledge to support Biden and not just boo him as they did Hilary.

Yes, it's all being managed quite carefully. Just bow your head and we can slip this collar and lead over it...

It's all good. I understand that I do not have representation. But nobody gets my vote for free. Maybe I just throw it away, or vote third party. Everybody else gets what they want from the situation, and so do I - at least under the circumstances. If Biden wins, okay. If Trump, fine.

What you are saying is simply not true. The Democrats have shifted, albeit not a lot, over time. And yes, most of that shit has been to the left. That's why I pointed to gay marriage, a clear shift in policy, and you want to ignore it, because it doesn't fit your narrative. The ACA is yet another example of a shift to the left (a horribly-implemented one, at that). Just because you "don't care" about the shift, doesn't mean it's not happening. It means you have other motives and other priorities. Now, what those motives and priorities are... is up for debate.

[Acidbaron]

I don't think anything I've said has shifted at all, you just focus on points that aren't important.

I called Biden an opportunist with his hand out, you called him a Windsock. We finessed it I guess.

I said the party was another party right of center, perhaps not as far right as the GOP.

You want to pick at nits for reasons I don't care to speculate upon.

Perhaps? Making that claim is just being dishonest for the sake of having an argument.

[Endus]

Nope, counter-scheduling makes sure you get shamed and cast out.

Pretty sure you're using "counter-scheduling" wrong. It was a key campaign strategy for Bill Clinton, and sure didn't work against his success.

Also, frankly, I've done exactly what I described, and helped to foster political change. If you're being "shamed and cast out", that has way more to do with what change you were seeking and/or your own belligerence in pushing it, than the concept itself.

I generally vote, I just don't vote for assholes.

Try again, Endus. You're so smart...

If you're voting for someone without any chance of winning the general, for President, it's a wasted vote that means nothing and you may as well have not voted. It isn't an expression of defiance or some statement of societal dissonance that will see lasting political change in the aftermath. At best, you might Ross Perot the election for the candidate you like least. As conservatives voting for Perot in '92 did, in helping elect Bill Clinton.