Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Endus]

in america, "government -----" anything is also a byword for cheap, low quality, and insufficient.
so when you tell them "government healthcare for all! no exceptions!!" its like saying "school cafeteria food for all! no exceptions!!"

its not from ignorance, rather familiarity.

Except for all the things they absolutely rely upon without thinking, which are government run.

You're simply explaining that there are other irrational boogeymen that they hide under the covers from.

[starlord]

Except for all the things they absolutely rely upon without thinking, which are government run.

You're simply explaining that there are other irrational boogeymen that they hide under the covers from.

the VA isn't known for their great healthcare or doctors either.

Officials at the Phoenix VA hospital were accused of keeping a secret wait list of veterans who were seeking health care. This list was kept out of sight of federal regulators, who were instead sent documents that vastly underreported how long it took for patients in Phoenix to see a doctor.

The secret wait list kept out of view, for example, that patients had to wait an average of 115 days to be seen by a primary care provider. Those long wait times may have had dire consequences: CNN reported that as many as 40 veterans died while on wait lists at the Phoenix hospital, and an official investigation found the wait time contributed to deaths

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...ndal-explained

thats just one of many. so yea, its a pretty big boogeyman that influences people's view of healthcare.

[starwipwe]

how hard is it to criticize dems without making up blatant lies and spreading misinformation?

i see the "totally leftists bro" still keep spreading alt right talking points. how completely unexpected.

- - - Updated - - -

actually one candidate does want to expand healthcare.
this is an example of misinformation being spread as fact.

If Biden's private healthcare were pushed on any european state, there would be blood on the streets. What he is proposing is a horrible, ghastly compromise between two horrible private healthcare systems. The fact that the status quo is worse does not change that.

Honestly it is embarrassing to listen to you pathetic, dickless appeasers. When did Americans lose their balls? You handed your country over to a bunch of revolting corporatists and you are utterly incapable of doing anything about it.

[beanman12345]

Starlord has a fan it seems.

[starlord]

Starlord has a fan it seems.

just report & ignore, if they want my attentions they will have to post on their main account.

[cubby]

Starlord has a fan it seems.

The new account creation is pretty impressive, outside of the irritating nature of the lies and insults. And yeah, it seems he does.

[Felya]

If Biden's private healthcare were pushed on any european state, there would be blood on the streets. What he is proposing is a horrible, ghastly compromise between two horrible private healthcare systems. The fact that the status quo is worse does not change that.

If Bernie’s medicare for all were pushed on any US state, there would be blood on the streets. the problem is that you are a successful foreign business owner... you don’t know how it is.

Honestly it is embarrassing to listen to you pathetic, dickless appeasers. When did Americans lose their balls? You handed your country over to a bunch of revolting corporatists and you are utterly incapable of doing anything about it.

Oh... there is line in this song to explain why you can’t see America’s balls...



It’s the part about Jimmy... I think you call it imperialism.

[starlord]

also, when it comes to completely government run healthcare, there are things like republicans ban on funding healthcare centers that provide abortion.

women & other minorities ought to be pretty leery of their healthcare being completely subject to a republican congress's whims.

[starwipwe]

The new account creation is pretty impressive, outside of the irritating nature of the lies and insults. And yeah, it seems he does.

That's all you can go on about isn't it dumbass? Because I can say you, yes you, are shilling for a segregationist, a homophobe, someone who sucks Wall St dick, probably a rapist. That's your guy. The guy YOU want running YOUR country. A piece of white supremacist crap a decent human being wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. What does that say about you?

Face it, no one could be such a pathetic anal hall monitor as to care about the terms and conditions of some shit MMO forum, you just blather on about that forever because you have no intelligence, no wit, no charm, no comeback. No scurry on and file your report you pathetic whining loser.

[Endus]

the VA isn't known for their great healthcare or doctors either.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...ndal-explained

thats just one of many. so yea, its a pretty big boogeyman that influences people's view of healthcare.

You keep pointing to additional boogeymen that get fearmongered about, rather than trying to make a case that any of this panic is rational. Because it isn't.

[starlord]

You keep pointing to additional boogeymen that get fearmongered about, rather than trying to make a case that any of this panic is rational. Because it isn't.

is it not rational to see that a currently government run healthcare program has many flaws?

[starwipwe]

If Bernie’s medicare for all were pushed on any US state, there would be blood on the streets. .

Congratulations, you are now officially a member of the Republican party.

[Endus]

is it not rational to see that a currently government run healthcare program has many flaws?

It is irrational to presume that the flaws of one government-run healthcare program with serious limitations and a history of deliberate underfunding is in any way representative of the concept of government-run healthcare.

Particularly when you can look at plenty of your fellow developed countries and see that they have systems that work just fine, and produce better outcomes overall than the current American system, which is designed to generate profit off human suffering.

You're literally cherry-picking an example to fearmonger about, to avoid a responsible, thorough analysis of the issue.

[starlord]

It is irrational to presume that the flaws of one government-run healthcare program with serious limitations and a history of deliberate underfunding is in any way representative of the concept of government-run healthcare.

Particularly when you can look at plenty of your fellow developed countries and see that they have systems that work just fine, and produce better outcomes overall than the current American system, which is designed to generate profit off human suffering.

You're literally cherry-picking an example to fearmonger about, to avoid a responsible, thorough analysis of the issue.

so you don't think a similar program by the same government would be subject to the same forces that caused it to become so terrible?

very optimistic.

[starwipwe]

so you don't think a similar program by the same government would be subject to the same forces that caused it to become to terrible?

very optimistic.

Nationalized healthcare is demonstrably better than private systems as proven in numerous studies.

Now fuck off.

[Ripster42]

is it not rational to see that a currently government run healthcare program has many flaws?

I'd argue that it's not rational to say that those flaws are an effective argument against any gov't paid for health care. IMO gov'ts have a duty to interfere in markets that, by their nature, cannot function efficiently as free markets. Efficient free markets solutions require elastic supply and demand. Healthcare does not have elastic demand when paid for by the patient.

I'd also argue that it's fairly irrational to choose the VA as a metric for what gov't run healthcare would look like in the US. For as much as america claims to support our troops, we don't really give a fuck about the VA unless a close relative (or ourselves) is both A) in the armed services B) needs VA services. We'll write a story about it in the newspaper. Cry some. Do nothing. We, as a nation, would give much more of a shit if almost everyone in the US got their healthcare paid for via single payer. Instead of 10% of the pop having "familiarity" it'd be 95% of it. The relative pressure that puts on elected officials to fix problems isn't really comparable.

[Endus]

so you don't think a similar program by the same government would be subject to the same forces that caused it to become so terrible?

very optimistic.

I think you're being deliberately misleading and dishonest by trying to cherry-pick apples when the conversation's about oranges. And I've given you more leash than you deserved on this particular angle.

The VA is a part of the USA's overall broken healthcare system. It is not a separate system unto itself. You can't treat it as such, like you're trying to.

[starlord]

I'd argue that it's not rational to say that those flaws are an effective argument against any gov't paid for health care. IMO gov'ts have a duty to interfere in markets that, by their nature, cannot function efficiently as free markets. Efficient free markets solutions require elastic supply and demand. Healthcare does not have elastic demand when paid for by the patient.

I'd also argue that it's fairly irrational to choose the VA as a metric for what gov't run healthcare would look like in the US. For as much as america claims to support our troops, we don't really give a fuck about the VA unless a close relative (or ourselves) is both A) in the armed services B) needs VA services. We'll write a story about it in the newspaper. Cry some. Do nothing. We, as a nation, would give much more of a shit if almost everyone in the US got their healthcare paid for via single payer. Instead of 10% of the pop having "familiarity" it'd be 95% of it. The relative pressure that puts on elected officials to fix problems isn't really comparable.

i'm just explaining where the perception comes from, and why people like the *idea* of healthcare but have a hard time grappling with the implementation.
my family members have VA healthcare, and it is only used as a last resort for things that are too much for private healthcare because it's terrible & they have had awful experiences with doctors there.
so when you say "take away what we have already", that's why many people have an objection. it's not persuasive the average voter to say political pressure will fix any problems when that hasn't happened already with the examples we do have.

[Endus]

i'm just explaining where the perception comes from, and why people like the *idea* of healthcare but have a hard time grappling with the implementation.
my family members have VA healthcare, and it is only used as a last resort for things that are too much for private healthcare because it's terrible & they have had awful experiences with doctors there.
so when you say "take away what we have already", that's why many people have an objection. it's not persuasive the average voter to say political pressure will fix any problems when that hasn't happened already with the examples we do have.

Like, seriously, I clearly stated that many Americans react emotionally and irrationally over fearmongering nonsense, when it comes to universal healthcare (and other issues).

Pointing out some of the many irrational justifications for that pointless fear really isn't debunking my point; you're just detailing what I glossed over, and somehow you think that's a counterargument.

[starlord]

I think you're being deliberately misleading and dishonest by trying to cherry-pick apples when the conversation's about oranges. And I've given you more leash than you deserved on this particular angle.

The VA is a part of the USA's overall broken healthcare system. It is not a separate system unto itself. You can't treat it as such, like you're trying to.

you said "people are illogically scared of change", i'm pointing out that there are actual real world examples that people look at for comparison.
its part of the reason that people object to removing private options.
republicans would try to undermine public healthcare as much as possible and make it subject to their ideologies, as they do already.
that wouldn't suddenly disappear if there was nationalized healthcare.