Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Acidbaron]

Can You point me towards the Obama discussion thread you had for his presidency? I mean surely you had one for the head of state before Trump and not just a thread to shitpost under because Trump lives rent free in your head. It must be there, surely there was some circle jerk where you tried to out do each other over how much you loved Obama and everything he did?

Obama didn't have a controversy every single day something trump has because he seeks them out and creates them, but there were a lot threads on Obama. Threads, posts and avatars and the like.

[Louisa Bannon]

I can't tell with these people if it's an eagerness to say "I was right; you should've listened to me" when Biden loses, or a fear of being wrong when he wins.

I shall explain...

It's simply that Biden is a really shitty candidate, and its the DNC's incredibly cynical take on what Americans as voters will accept given the advent of something like Trump.

I mean look at the response to the pandemic: endless handouts to corporations. $4 trillion or more to their friends and a measly one time $1200 for the average citizen. The average citizen can still catch Covid-19 for which is there is little in the way of treatment, no vaccine, and questions about who pays for it all. And while they have flubbed the quarantine in place phase there was no assistance to keep smaller companies afloat, maintain employment or even wage security, stop foreclosures, stop evictions, or stop utility shutoffs while people were financially stressed under lock-down conditions. Americans will eat shit and ask for seconds.

I would argue that Trump is terrible. But if you actually put him side by side with decades of the also terrible Biden's political record, Biden is technically worse if only for the duration of time he's been terrible, but I would argue substantively also. But Trump has other flaws: he foments violence, he makes endlessly idiotic tweets, his crimes, and probably worst of all is his unseemly behavior as president. Trump is undignified and embarrassing. I really want to say that Biden is dignified and doesn't embarrass us - but that's not really true is it? I guess Biden would simply embarrass us less, or we could just pretend that possibly senile, old creepy Joe was somehow just prone to gaffes and inappropriate touching. "That's just Joe!" we would say of President Biden. "Oh look, he's massaging the shoulders of the German PM."

Polls put Biden ahead. Trump still has a base that it seems he cannot fall below. I don't think this is going to be a clean or overwhelming win for Biden. But hey, he might do it.

I think I've heard Krystal Ball describe this election as a choice between candidates "stab me" or "shoot me" - and those aren't great choices. And incrementalism continues.

The incrementalism designed into the U.S. political system is probably going to be its downfall. Given the greed of politicians, the shift to the entire conversation to the right of middle - progress for the left is effectively impossible. My advice to younger people is get the fuck out of here. Which reminds me to call a younger relative of mine and tell him that very thing.

Joe Rogan: "We can go dumber."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YraUerctDM8

[Felya]

What a bunch of nonsense. Different time, different president, different electorate, different electoral map. The only thing that's the same is the racial injustice being protested.

The problem Trump should face in this, is his reaction to NFL kneeling to the flag. So far, I’m only seeing it on sports pages... but, Kapernic was right... Compare Trump’s campaign for months attacking kneeling to the flag, but is now posting ‘what he really meant’ tweets.

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But if you actually put him side by side with decades of the also terrible Biden's political record, Biden is technically worse if only for the duration of time he's been terrible, but I would argue substantively also.

I disagree and you have not actually shown anything that makes Trump better. In fact, your following text seems to claim he is worse. So... let’s compare. Here are just 2 political topic... I realize it’s a lot, that’s why only two... feel free to just focus on the first, we can return to second once done:

Energy:
Has Biden left environmental treaties like Paris Accord? Is Biden convincing his followers that windmills cause cancer and that coal is foundation of US workers? Is Biden attacking little girls, because they try to raise awareness? Is Biden loosening the rules in clean water act? Has Biden send 2000 US troops to protect Saudi oil, after they kill a US resident? Is Biden increasing drilling in American, previous to Trump, protected land? Is Biden giving out subsidies to oil companies and coal? Is Biden the one making espestos legal for use?

International
Is Biden leaving peace treaties that the rest of the world maintains? Is it Biden supplying Saudi Arabia with weapons the blew up children in Libya? Is it Biden who is leaving nuclear and heavy arms treaties? Was it Biden who hired a lobbyist for Turkey, than left those who were fighting terrorism with with, to start the process of Kurd genocide? Is it Biden that is demanding Russia return to the G7, while insulting and asserting conspiracy theory about the UN, the WHO and even Canada? Was it Biden who vetoed to keep war powers against Iran? Was it Biden who added North Korea and didn’t include Saudi Arabia, to claim his promised Muslim ban, wasn’t a Muslim ban?

[Louisa Bannon]

I disagree and you have not actually shown anything that makes Trump better.

I have no intention of showing that Trump is better. I've said he's terrible, just over a shorter span of time. I've also said that the Dems being only incrementally different than the GOP, which really could be good or bad and doesn't matter, is not enough. The Dems fail to distinguish themselves as an actual opposition party as they strive to be more like the GOP and grab more of that corporate cash.

The choice is between far right, and middle right. A lot of Americans may simply not give a crap.

[Felya]

I have no intention of showing that Trump is better. I've said he's terrible, just over a shorter span of time. I've also said that the Dems being only incrementally different than the GOP, which really could be good or bad and doesn't matter, is not enough. The Dems fail to distinguish themselves as an actual opposition party as they strive to be more like the GOP and grab more of that corporate cash.

The choice is between far right, and middle right. A lot of Americans may simply not give a crap.

I am asking you, in the span of time they were politicians, willing to ignore Trump’s litigious and personal failing through Trump’s previous decades to holding office... How is Trump not objectively worse? I asked you what Biden has done to even match Trump’s 4 years of Trump. I listed the things Trump did... I’m not taking your assertion of Biden being in office longer, as the reason this is true.

Edit: Biden has been in office longer, thus has more issues, is an obviously flawed logic. Time in office is not a metric of bad policy or bad leadership. It’s a variable that is intentionally deceptive... It’s not like Biden was in office for 40 years, but ran as anti establishment. That’s the lie Trump is pedaling... that a billionaire corporation is the little guy, fighting against corporate democrat establishment.

[Louisa Bannon]

I asked you what Biden has done to even match Trump’s 4 years of Trump.

Because it was asked:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lematic-Record

Go there. Read. Understand.

Corporatist? Yes.
For sale and bought? Yes.
Racist? Yes.
Profiting on the misery of others? Yes.
Supporting wars? Yes.
Mass incarceration? Yes.
Putting more people in prison than ever before? Yes.
etc, etc, etc...

Time in office is not a metric of bad policy or bad leadership.

It is if you're a sleazy politician like Joe Biden, who is a pure opportunistic jerk at every turn.

[kaelleria]

We've never had a president that has gone out of their way to make things worse.

I don't see how protests around George Floyd's murder helps Republicans at all.

The police are out of control and have been for a while, we just have tons of video now.

[Felya]

Because it was asked:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lematic-Record

I responded there to the medicare for all. As anyone reading that can see, you didn’t exactly provide a defense. Just arguing that Biden’s public option like Medicare, isn’t called Medicare for all. Going as far as saying a single paragraph summery of his plan, was too much to read... so... you skimmed it and asked me to be more specific. Over a shirt paragraph...

Then you went in to assert that Biden will just say what everyone wants to hear, without a second realizing that your assertions are not what people want to hear. Otherwise, Biden would fake support them...

Go there. Read. Understand.

Yeah... my understanding is the issue... you bet.

Corporatist? Yes.

Trump is a corporation. Yes?

For sale and bought? Yes.

Trump is the one buying. Yes?

Racist? Yes.

Trump had nazis marching in his behalf. Yes?

Profiting on the misery of others? Yes.

Trump’s entire career as a corporation is predicated on misery of others. Yes?

Supporting wars? Yes.

Trump vetoed, to have war powers act to go to war with Iran. Yes?

Mass incarceration? Yes.

Trump privatizing for profit prisons. Yes?

Putting more people in prison than ever before? Yes.

Trump is holding children in cages. Yes?

etc, etc, etc...

Mine are specific...

It is if you're a sleazy politician like Joe Biden, who is a pure opportunistic jerk at every turn.

Call him sleepy Joe instead of jerk... you are comparing him to Trump. The guy who imitated a disabled person and laughed off ‘only in the panhandle’ for someone screaming to shoot people. Trump calls his many accusers sluts that are too ugly to assault. But, Joe Biden is a pure jerk at every turn? Yeah... that’s bizarre...

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We've never had a president that has gone out of their way to make things worse.

I don't see how protests around George Floyd's murder helps Republicans at all.

The police are out of control and have been for a while, we just have tons of video now.

Apparently it’s to call Biden racist.

[Sunseeker]

Looks like our election chances in november are slipping away due to this disorder

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...041BB2EFC3034C

Violent protests likely caused a 1.5–7.9% shift among whites toward Republicans and tipped the election.

Minnesota was within 1.5% margin

could very well go red now so thats +10 electorates to trump

so great news if your maga recently i guess

might also scare off white moderates in arizona/nevada we need to win,
i dunno what joe can do to help himself since trump will push the "radical left anarchist/antifa/BLM causing anarachy" message, very similar to richard nixons "law and order" campaign in 1968.

lets just hope we still have elections by 2024

I said it months ago when the Biden supporters were crying about compromise. People who are turning to Trump because of what is happening now, they were always Trump supporters. The fact that they were less egregious than others made people think they could be "won over" by "reason" and "compromise". That magical "moderate" vote the Democrats needed soooooo badly!

There's your moderates folks. Trumpster-lites that as soon as they see an angry black man they run straight to the nearest strong-man.

It'd be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

[lockybalboa]

I said it months ago when the Biden supporters were crying about compromise. People who are turning to Trump because of what is happening now, they were always Trump supporters. The fact that they were less egregious than others made people think they could be "won over" by "reason" and "compromise". That magical "moderate" vote the Democrats needed soooooo badly!

There's your moderates folks. Trumpster-lites that as soon as they see an angry black man they run straight to the nearest strong-man.

It'd be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

So are you with us or not? Biden or no?

[Sunseeker]

So are you with us or not? Biden or no?

I've said it so many times here. Go search my posts, it's here, several times over.

You're only demonstrating the point I keep bringing up. Any time I complain. Any time I disagree. Any time I point out the faults in your logic, suddenly you think I'm going to switch teams.

[Louisa Bannon]

I don't see how protests around George Floyd's murder helps Republicans at all.

Well, this situation is bad. Yes, the GOP is full of racist nonsense and dogwhistling. But look and see if you can find the Dems in it too?

The Hennepin County Attorney handling the case against Minneapolis officer Derek Chauvin in the death of George Floyd is Michael O. Freeman, a Democrat. Instead of charging first degree murder, he's going with third-degree. A lot of this hangs on intent. My understanding is that Derek Chauvin kneeled on George Floyd's back, and then also put his knee into the back of the man's neck. Given what I assume has to be standard police safety training on doing either of those two things, I think he had the intent to kill the poor fellow. I've seen footage that shows witnesses complaining of the treatment and that the suspect was unresponsive and perhaps in need of medical assistance. I think the videos show that George Floyd did not resist and that this was an instance of wildly unnecessary force. Here you have a Dem wimping out utterly in terms of prosecuting the case. But I guess black folks think Dems are their friends or something...

Amy Klobuchar has come under scrutiny for her time handling such matters herself as former Hennepin County Attorney. It is thought that Klobuchar had previously let Derek Chauvin slide on criminal charges, and here he is again behaving badly and killing a man. At the moment I'd say nothing is certain, but Klobuchar seems to have been very lackluster in prosecuting wrongdoing on the part of the police whereas now she is making statements about systemic racism in the police department. So which is it, are they good cops that shouldn't be prosecuted or is there systemic racism? And if there was systemic racism, where is her record prosecuting the problems arising from that fact?

Is the GOP bad? Yes.
Are the Dems better? No.

[Lenonis]

Is the GOP bad? Yes.
Are the Dems better? No.

Bold move pulling a BotH sIDeS on racial issues.

Since both sides are the same i eagerly wait for you to tell us the Dem version of Charlottesville.

[Louisa Bannon]

Again, I don't do the dance that you may demand of me, I do the dance I want to dance.

Will Black Voters Still Love Biden When They Remember Who He Was?
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019...explained.html

Joe Biden isn’t the only Democrat who has blamed black America for its problems
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...-its-problems/

How Did the Democrats End Up Here?
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...ts-end-up-here

Just some food for thought. I'd argue that the pressure from the more left leaning mentioned in these articles will now not be forthcoming, thanks to counter-scheduling. The left in the party has not only been marginalized, I think they may have abandoned ship. Maybe the Dems don't need those votes.

[Somewhatconcerned]

Bold move pulling a BotH sIDeS on racial issues.

Since both sides are the same i eagerly wait for you to tell us the Dem version of Charlottesville.

There isn't one...but people see that all these riots and COVID hotspots are in Dem controlled cities.

We will see how people feel about rioting and looting come November. Sadly these acts (even if they are mostly by bad actors) cause more anger and resentment towards the looters than the actions against Floyd. Counterproductive.

[Machismo]

There isn't one...but people see that all these riots and COVID hotspots are in Dem controlled cities.

We will see how people feel about rioting and looting come November. Sadly these acts (even if they are mostly by bad actors) cause more anger and resentment towards the looters than the actions against Floyd. Counterproductive.

Yes, I agree, it's a shame there's so much racism coming from one specific side. That's why they love Trump so much, he's a fellow racist.

[Thepersona]

Yes, I agree, it's a shame there's so much racism coming from one specific side. That's why they love Trump so much, he's a fellow racist.

Also he ignores that covid hotspots are in democratic areas because they are more transparent about it.

[Trandithal]

Bold move pulling a BotH sIDeS on racial issues.

Since both sides are the same i eagerly wait for you to tell us the Dem version of Charlottesville.

Can you tell us when Trump supported segregation, retard?

Essentially all you people do is cherry-pick stuff to support your bigot, when it it is transparent to everyone else that both candidates are old school unreconstructed racists who occasionally come out with inclusive rhetoric when it is politically expedient to do so.

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We will see how people feel about rioting and looting come November. Sadly these acts (even if they are mostly by bad actors) cause more anger and resentment towards the looters than the actions against Floyd. Counterproductive.

Do fuck off you evil little race-baiting cunt.

[Machismo]

-snip-

Odd, considering how many times you got caught spamming racist nonsense, and even trying to claim others were saying things they were not saying.

Oh, and as for Trump supporting segregation, do you mean the guy who got caught refusing to rent to people, because they were black?

[Gestopft]

I shall explain...

It's simply that Biden is a really shitty candidate, and its the DNC's incredibly cynical take on what Americans as voters will accept given the advent of something like Trump.

Did you see the thread I linked right below the segment you quoted? I've been critical of his record and skeptical of his chances since before he was actually running. You don't need to explain any of Biden's negatives to me.

I think I've heard Krystal Ball describe this election as a choice between candidates "stab me" or "shoot me" - and those aren't great choices. And incrementalism continues.

I think viewing it as "stab me" versus "shoot me" is a mistake for two reasons, and a rather narrow way of looking at this election. Look beyond the next four years: broad systemic change is not on the ballot, unfortunately, but that doesn't mean both Neoliberals will result in the same future. Think about it as "not going to do progressive change" versus "sodomizing progressive change with a rusty crowbar." Just imagine that every judge McTurtle adds to the court also adds to the time before M4A is possible. Or some real anti-trust. Or campaign finance reforms. You shouldn't have to imagine hard because it's true- the GoP knows that they are outnumbered, especially among younger voters, so they are building the biggest roadblock possible before they leave. Biden won't drive through it, but he won't add to it. Don't let McTurtle build the roadblock, which incidentally reminds me of the second mistake: thinking mostly about the candidates as individuals. This isn't just "Trump versus Biden," it's "Trump's maladministration of cronies, corruption, and incompetence" versus "Biden's administration of reasonably competent governance and unfortunately probably also some Wall Street goons." An administration is more than the person at the top. People are policy, and Biden's people will undoubtedly be better, and that will make a real difference in people's lives.

I mean look at the response to the pandemic: endless handouts to corporations. $4 trillion or more to their friends and a measly one time $1200 for the average citizen. The average citizen can still catch Covid-19 for which is there is little in the way of treatment, no vaccine, and questions about who pays for it all. And while they have flubbed the quarantine in place phase there was no assistance to keep smaller companies afloat, maintain employment or even wage security, stop foreclosures, stop evictions, or stop utility shutoffs while people were financially stressed under lock-down conditions. Americans will eat shit and ask for seconds.

Yeah, I've been arguing against Neoliberalism for years. Both candidates will continue Neoliberalism; only one will entrench it in the courts for generations. Even if you think both candidates are similarly awful, a Trump government will destroy the future of Progressive politics in a way that Biden wouldn't.

The incrementalism designed into the U.S. political system is probably going to be its downfall. Given the greed of politicians, the shift to the entire conversation to the right of middle - progress for the left is effectively impossible. My advice to younger people is get the fuck out of here. Which reminds me to call a younger relative of mine and tell him that very thing.

Progress for the left becomes LESS possible if you sit out. Think. Beyond. Four. Years.

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Can you tell us when Trump supported segregation, retard?

When he didn't rent to black people, maybe?

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The left in the party has not only been marginalized, I think they may have abandoned ship. Maybe the Dems don't need those votes.

If they win without the left of the party, good luck getting a foot back in the door. Don't marginalize yourself.