Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Felya]

I wonder, under the premise that the Democrats take the White House and flip the Senate, if they won't toss out the 60 vote rule, and go entirely nuclear for two years.

It’s actually one of the reasons I didn’t support Bernie. During the debates, Bernie specifically stated that he would not reverse the executive power grab, but use it to push left’s agenda. Biden said he would reverse Trump’s power grab and try to push his agenda as a coalition.

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I can't help myself but when i watch the interviews and comments from Joe Biden, especially those made at his home, how mentally fit is he?
Trump is not exactly bright, but Joe is seriously giving him a lot of attack-opportunities.

I think he is mentally apt, just that he is about to fall asleep half way through his point.

[Bodakane]

No, this is a misunderstanding between the difference. I am not arguing from a perspective that the truth is between right and left. I am pointing at the reality that Democrats will not have 60% majority. That means if I actually want a public option, it has to be in a form that will pass Congress. It doesn’t mean I don’t support medicare for all, it means I don’t believe it can pass. It means I’d rather American people got something, instead of voting out of ideological purity and then wondering why nothing gets done.



Did Obama capitulate with ACA or was the inability to get a single GOP vote, was justified by Trump to claim extremism? It was the liberal purists who refused to get on board with ACA. It was liberal purists who refused to hold their nose and vote Hillary. The result is you got nothing...

Yes, Obama capitulated with the ACA. The insurance mandate is the conservative response (put forth by the Heritage Foundation) to universal/single payer healthcare. That "compromise" is exactly what you're asking for, except the Repubs refused it and then gutted it. They did that, because as I've said, they've learned the Dems will ALWAYS cave. So they are free to go as far right as they want, there is no opposing force pulling them back.

Progress is not happening and what meager progress we can point to (ACA, Paris Accord, etc.) has already been undone and yet you guys keep thinking the "moderate" way is the correct path.

[Lenonis]

I wonder, under the premise that the Democrats take the White House and flip the Senate, if they won't toss out the 60 vote rule, and go entirely nuclear for two years.

I'm sure there is some extreme hesitation to do this. It's quite remarkable the GOP hasn't done it already -- and if they won't go for that power grab they must have already done the political math to know the backlash they'd experience from the other side far outweighs the support they'd get from theirs.

[cubby]

I'm sure there is some extreme hesitation to do this. It's quite remarkable the GOP hasn't done it already -- and if they won't go for that power grab they must have already done the political math to know the backlash they'd experience from the other side far outweighs the support they'd get from theirs.

The GOP only had a brief two year stint in which they could have done it. But yeah, surprising - it's possible they just didn't have a House version of Moscow Mitch. If they did, they could have killed the ACA in it's entirety.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

This is the final wager that you and I will ever partake in.

I hope your Joe Biden wins and you get all the things, healthcare, environment, human rights etc.

...

But if you lose it is finally time to admit to the corruption of both parties and of the partisan tapestry of the Main Stream Media.

If you cannot admit that-if you cannot process your defeat then you should just resubscribe to wow and live out the rest of your days picking flowers and gouging out various animal body parts for gold.

[cubby]

But if you lose it is finally time to admit to the corruption of both parties and of the partisan tapestry of the Main Stream Media.

And then do what...?

[Felya]

Yes, Obama capitulated with the ACA. The insurance mandate is the conservative response (put forth by the Heritage Foundation) to universal/single payer healthcare. That "compromise" is exactly what you're asking for, except the Repubs refused it and then gutted it. They did that, because as I've said, they've learned the Dems will ALWAYS cave. So they are free to go as far right as they want, there is no opposing force pulling them back.

Progress is not happening and what meager progress we can point to (ACA, Paris Accord, etc.) has already been undone and yet you guys keep thinking the "moderate" way is the correct path.

Now, think about what would have happened if it were more extreme. If ACA and Paris Accord are not enough, while both were undone as extremes... what would have happened to the actual extremes? (Hint: They would never have passed to be undone by Trump in the first place)

[Draco-Onis]

It’s actually one of the reasons I didn’t support Bernie. During the debates, Bernie specifically stated that he would not reverse the executive power grab, but use it to push left’s agenda. Biden said he would reverse Trump’s power grab and try to push his agenda as a coalition.

You've unknowingly shown why democrats always lose, when republicans win they throw away the rule book and put the pedal on the gas democrats want to play the nice guy and go back to the center. President Biden will be the forgive and forget president to the republicans when what we need is to hit them back hard for what they did during the Trump years. But since there is no other choice I have made my peace with being with on the losing side of power.

What Moscow Mitch and Trump have done is given democrats a master class when it comes to political power one more term and they would have reversed Roe V. Wade, they've changed the courts forever and we are going to do absolutely nothing to reverse that. Biden won't balance the supreme court we are going to be stuck with the right wing nut job court for decades.

[Felya]

You've unknowingly shown why democrats always lose, when republicans win they throw away the rule book and put the pedal on the gas democrats want to play the nice guy and go back to the center. President Biden will be the forgive and forget president to the republicans when what we need is to hit them back hard for what they did during the Trump years. But since there is no other choice I have made my peace with being with on the losing side of power.

What Moscow Mitch and Trump have done is given democrats a master class when it comes to political power one more term and they would have reversed Roe V. Wade, they've changed the courts forever and we are going to do absolutely nothing to reverse that. Biden won't balance the supreme court we are going to be stuck with the right wing nut job court for decades.

Doesn’t make sense, in light of Trump reversing Obama’s policy. If Democrats were not successful in implementing policy, there would be nothing for Trump to reverse.

[Noxx79]

In regard to blue no matter who, I point to a presidential inaugural speech:”The American people don’t expect government to solve every problem. They don’t expect those of us in this chamber to agree on every issue. But they do expect us to put the nation’s interests before party.”

Student loan debt will never be forgiven, too many people who own too many politicians like Biden will not let this happen. And let's say they forgave all student loan debt...who in their right mind would ever loan money to anyone for education ever again? So then you want the government to forgive all student loan debt and then give all future education for free. Never mind the hard working people who saved or worked multiple jobs to pay off their school or their children's school and now would have the privilege of paying off debt for people who can't handle responsibility.

I did see Obama endorsed Biden adding "The other side has a massive war chest. The other side has a propaganda network with little regard for the truth.”

In response, a senator rightly pointed out that ‘Dems only have 8 of the 10 richest American billionaires—including Bloomberg, Bezos & the Google founders—plus Soros & Steyer. And we’ve only got ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, WaPo, NYT & just about every other newspaper in America. How can we compete on $$ and propaganda?’

Of all the arguments against canceling student debt, this is always the dumbest.

“Everyone before me had to work for school, everyone else should have to work for it.”

It’s a garbage argument, ignoring the fact that education costs have skyrocketed since these people went to school. It’s also incredibly selfish and short sighted.

[Edge-]

Progress is not happening and what meager progress we can point to (ACA, Paris Accord, etc.) has already been undone and yet you guys keep thinking the "moderate" way is the correct path.

The ACA is not?

8 years ago...

Dropping kids off your insurance at 18 was standard. Now it's 26, and people don't want to give that up.
You could be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions ranging from a prior pregnancy to teenage acne. And they can't charge you more for it. Now you can't be denied coverage, and people don't want to give that up.
Lifetime/annual maximums existed previously. They don't now, and folks seem to like that.
Medicaid was expanded in many, mostly liberal states, covering hundreds of thousands/millions more. Folks don't want to give that up.
Preventative care is now covered fully. Folks seem to like that.
Prior to the ACA you could be dropped by your insurance for having an expensive illness/injury. You can't anymore, and people seem to like that.

These aren't "meager", these are pretty significant steps that people are starting to take for granted. They've forgotten the Congressional hearings with health insurance workers testifying how they were directed to find ways to deny people coverage or drop them off their insurance because they were trying to get expensive treatments covered. I remember all this garbage because I lived through it. It was fucking awful, and there's little chance in hell you could ever convince me to return to the way things were. Even with fat sacks of cash.

And it hasn't been "undone". Trump has pulled back some elements of the ACA, but it remains the law of the land and it's now majority popular, and the Republican replacement effort faceplanted.

What's the alternative that you think would be more effective? Taking even more extreme steps that are likely far easier to overturn with the changing of the guard and that will be infinitely more unpopular and difficult to get passed to begin with?

Slow and steady progress is how shit gets done, outside of things like a violent revolution. So if you're not ready for a violent revolution, then I'd suggest supporting progress in whatever form it appears. Trust me, I wish it wasn't such a painfully slow process but if that's the reality of the situation then I'll take slow progress over regression.

[Draco-Onis]

Doesn’t make sense, in light of Trump reversing Obama’s policy. If Democrats were not successful in implementing policy, there would be nothing for Trump to reverse.

Trump didn't just reverse Obama's policies he went right far right that's my point all of these slow advances were for naught. Also historically speaking that approach the slow and steady approach is a failure social security, medicare, medicaid, the new deal were not slow steps. The slow steps are far easier to reverse than big changes that Americans notice in their lives, if your approach is a slow boil when you take it away no one notices.

[GreenJesus]

Of all the arguments against canceling student debt, this is always the dumbest.

“Everyone before me had to work for school, everyone else should have to work for it.”

It’s a garbage argument, ignoring the fact that education costs have skyrocketed since these people went to school. It’s also incredibly selfish and short sighted.

One thing that needs to be done is to remove all the bloat in Universities. If the taxpayer is going to pay for it, then there needs to be some accountability. There is no reason that colleges should cost as much as they do today. I know this is a random example, but why did Elizabeth Warren get paid $400,000 for one class? Was her one class really worth that much? How much did tuition need to increase to offset that cost? Colleges have gotten away with raising costs and raising tuition because the government provides student loans. The college will get the money either way since student loans don't go away with bankruptcy so might as well just ramp it up. Students will still give away their first born to be able to attend them anyway. "I'll be a billionaire after I graduate and become CEO. So who cares what the cost is?"

[Bodakane]

The ACA is not?

8 years ago...

Dropping kids off your insurance at 18 was standard. Now it's 26, and people don't want to give that up.
You could be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions ranging from a prior pregnancy to teenage acne. And they can't charge you more for it. Now you can't be denied coverage, and people don't want to give that up.
Lifetime/annual maximums existed previously. They don't now, and folks seem to like that.
Medicaid was expanded in many, mostly liberal states, covering hundreds of thousands/millions more. Folks don't want to give that up.
Preventative care is now covered fully. Folks seem to like that.
Prior to the ACA you could be dropped by your insurance for having an expensive illness/injury. You can't anymore, and people seem to like that.

These aren't "meager", these are pretty significant steps that people are starting to take for granted. They've forgotten the Congressional hearings with health insurance workers testifying how they were directed to find ways to deny people coverage or drop them off their insurance because they were trying to get expensive treatments covered. I remember all this garbage because I lived through it. It was fucking awful, and there's little chance in hell you could ever convince me to return to the way things were. Even with fat sacks of cash.

And it hasn't been "undone". Trump has pulled back some elements of the ACA, but it remains the law of the land and it's now majority popular, and the Republican replacement effort faceplanted.

What's the alternative that you think would be more effective? Taking even more extreme steps that are likely far easier to overturn with the changing of the guard and that will be infinitely more unpopular and difficult to get passed to begin with?

Slow and steady progress is how shit gets done, outside of things like a violent revolution. So if you're not ready for a violent revolution, then I'd suggest supporting progress in whatever form it appears. Trust me, I wish it wasn't such a painfully slow process but if that's the reality of the situation then I'll take slow progress over regression.

I mean, WADR, you're making an argument in a vacuum.

Break it down realistically and logically.......

There's 2 real sides to the healthcare issue:

Liberals want some form of universal healthcare so they don't have to worry about being able to afford medical care.
Conservatives want an every man for himself pay your own way or fuck off and die scenario.

If you think the ACA as it stands now is closer to the liberal scenario than the conservative scenario, then you're either confused or not being intellectually honest for the sake of winning a meaningless online argument.

[Felya]

Trump didn't just reverse Obama's policies he went right far right that's my point all of these slow advances were for naught. Also historically speaking that approach the slow and steady approach is a failure social security, medicare, medicaid, the new deal were not slow steps. The slow steps are far easier to reverse than big changes that Americans notice in their lives, if your approach is a slow boil when you take it away no one notices.

Which is why reversing Trump’s executive power grab is important. This isn’t a reflection of policy implementation, but the power in the executive branch. It’s why Bernie was wrong... It’s why it doesn’t mater what policy you push, when the next guy can just flip it back.

[Draco-Onis]

Which is why reversing Trump’s executive power grab is important. This isn’t a reflection of policy implementation, but the power in the executive branch. It’s why Bernie was wrong... It’s why it doesn’t mater what policy you push, when the next guy can just flip it back.

You entirely miss my point what will reversing the executive power grabs do? we've already seen the next Trump will just ignore it or just change it to worse. The republicans have already checkmate the democrats they have the judicial branch for the future to protect and rubber stamp their power moves. What should keep you up at night is that Donald J. Trump the moron in chief did this much damage, imagine what the next one with brains will be able to do with the judicial branch and his party backing him.

[Edge-]

If you think the ACA as it stands now is closer to the liberal scenario than the conservative scenario, then you're either confused or not being intellectually honest for the sake of winning a meaningless online argument.

Except THAT is operating in a vaccuum, not reality.

Reality was that it was functionally already "what conservatives want". The ACA was absolutely a huge step towards improving access to insurance and ensuring that insurance companies can't fuck you over on a whim.

If you think the ACA is more akin to "what conservatives want", especially after they collectively lost their god-damn minds about "DEATH PANELS" and spend the better part of the past decade pathetically virtue signaling with "REPEAL AND REPLACE!", only to have those efforts go belly up when they actually had the power to do something, then I literally don't know what to tell you.

Because that is a view that's detached from reality. "It's a conservative thing, even if conservatives hate it!"

[PfeffermintShake]

Turns out, Death Panels were shear projection.

Trump and Jared are literally running Death Panels^TM now.
Deciding which states get hospital ships.
Deciding who gets masks and ventilators.
Not opening the ACA exchanges.

[Edge-]

Turns out, Death Panels were shear projection.

Trump and Jared are literally running Death Panels^TM now.
Deciding which states get hospital ships.
Deciding who gets masks and ventilators.
Not opening the ACA exchanges.

You forgot -

Deciding which hospitals they will take PPE from for "federal use" without explanation.

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Republican Rep Trey Hollingsworth has thoughts -

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...m_npd_nn_fb_ma

"It is policymakers' decision to put on our big boy and big girl pants and say it is the lesser of these two evils," Republican Rep. Trey Hollingsworth told radio station WIBC-FM of Indianapolis. "It is not zero evil, but it is the lesser of these two evils, and we intend to move forward that direction."

I guess he's right. If a few tens of thousands of Americans need to die to save my 401k, I guess that's just how things are.

Seriously, Republicans are still openly talking about taking action that they know and admit will unnecessarily kill more Americans.

I say they volunteer first.

[Bodakane]

Except THAT is operating in a vaccuum, not reality.

Reality was that it was functionally already "what conservatives want". The ACA was absolutely a huge step towards improving access to insurance and ensuring that insurance companies can't fuck you over on a whim.

If you think the ACA is more akin to "what conservatives want", especially after they collectively lost their god-damn minds about "DEATH PANELS" and spend the better part of the past decade pathetically virtue signaling with "REPEAL AND REPLACE!", only to have those efforts go belly up when they actually had the power to do something, then I literally don't know what to tell you.

Because that is a view that's detached from reality. "It's a conservative thing, even if conservatives hate it!"

It was political theater and you know it, just as everything they freak out about.

You really think the mostly gutted ACA is closer to what liberals want than what conservatives want.....fucking really?