Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Endus]

It's interesting how many of you are now willing to admit that Biden isn't really your guy, you don't even like him, but somehow he's what we ended up with. And yet, we supposedly chose him, yeah? Where's Endus where I need some false sense of democratic processes laid out for me?

I literally posted like 20 minutes before you. It's the last post above this one you made.

But here you go;

He was chosen by the DNC

That's a lie. The DNC made no such choice. He was one of many potential candidates on the primary ballot. The voters picked Biden.

everyone pretty much fell in line over a weekend, people knelt and pledged fealty

No such bullshit happened. Again; this is a lie. There is no "fealty". It's horseshit you're making up.

the media gave Creepy Joe plenty of earned media because jackasses like Bill Maher and everyone on MSNBC or CNN had been talking about him for over a year. Biden is electable, etc ad nauseum. Suddenly Bernie tanked and Joe was ascendant.

Not really "suddenly". It also appears you're misrepresenting the fact that primaries don't occur at the same time in every State, and each State tends to vote differently, so significant shifts as new State results come in is what always happens. Happened in 2016, too. You're again basically lying, here; misrepresenting the facts to manufacture a completely baseless conspiracy theory.

One thing that remained weird throughout was Sanders sort of constantly kowtowing to Biden and absolutely refusing to go after him on ANYTHING.

This is descriptive of your own personal bias and blinders, not anything about Sanders or Biden. What you're demonstrating is that you don't actually understand Sanders and what he stands for all that well. You thought he was anti-establishment and would burn it all down for you, and that's never who he was.

Well, we all know how it shook out esp after Clyburn gave Biden the southern black vote.

Y'know, dismissing the agency of southern black voters is pretty damned racist. Why do you presume they can't or won't make their own choices, like everyone else?

Right, because almost certainly racist motherfucking Biden is some great friend to the black american as long as he can incarcerate them and get them on the Federal Prison Industries (aka Unicor) payroll. Yes, I am cynical as hell - this shit was significantly engineered by DNC insiders in my opinion. They'd rather lose this election than shift to the left and thereby potentially lose the same corporate money that the GOP gets now.

Back to utterly baseless conspiracy theories. You may as well be talking about the Illuminati.

Because the job seems to be to make bloody well sure we deregulate the financial sector, curbstomp the working class, and then hollow out the tax coffers every 15-20 years. Force Joe and Jane Sixpack to sell low, so later the elite can buy high. We literally have socialism for the rich, and capitalism for the poor. For our friends everything, for our enemies the law.

It would really help if you bothered to even read Biden's platform, because you're making claims that fly directly against it. You're not attacking Biden, you're attacking a fiction you made up in your own mind.

[Thekri]

Because him being the senator from MBNA, trying to kill SS, veteran's bennies, and on and on is somehow not enough proof. We already had this thread over here:

Biden's Problematic Record
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lematic-Record

It's interesting how many of you are now willing to admit that Biden isn't really your guy, you don't even like him, but somehow he's what we ended up with. And yet, we supposedly chose him, yeah? Where's Endus where I need some false sense of democratic processes laid out for me?

Show me where I ever said anything different? Want to go dig up were Cubby was going ballistic at me because I criticized Biden? Want to go find the endless examples I called out Obama, Sanders, and Pelosi? I have no allegiance to any of these people. I am not falling in line with anybody, and I am well aware the world is full of shades of grey. But there are still absolutes in this world, and there are still red lines that can be crossed.

Trump has crossed red lines faster then we can draw them. Thousands of Americans have died from his hubris, and thousands more will die from his hubris. He has single handed done more damage to the effort to combat climate change then any man alive. He promotes fossil fuels and plastic pollution when everyone knows what they are doing. He negotiates with terrorists and betrays out allies to death at the hands of the Turks. He insults our friends and surrenders to our enemies. He turns Americans against Americans to serve his own twisted interests, and he is running the largest scale looting operation in American history, as he and his cronies strip billions from Americans. He has broken every norm of decency and honor in American governance, he has spit on the rights of Americans and of Humanity. He holds the principles of our Democracy and rule of law in contempt.

But yeah, Biden is a senile old man with a questionable track record. I get it. Easiest vote I will ever cast. This isn't about incrementalism, this is a matter of we can worry about a sound fire prevention policy sometime after we stop, drop and roll to put out the flames currently consuming us.

[Louisa Bannon]

The “Need for Chaos” and Motivations to Share Hostile Political Rumors
https://psyarxiv.com/6m4ts/

A Shocking Number of Americans Want to 'Just Let Them All Burn'
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/e...-them-all-burn

This is simply what you get. Shit happens, countries implode.

[Endus]

The “Need for Chaos” and Motivations to Share Hostile Political Rumors
https://psyarxiv.com/6m4ts/

A Shocking Number of Americans Want to 'Just Let Them All Burn'
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/e...-them-all-burn

...

Are you seriously linking to content that underscores that your own personal motives in spreading disinformation and false narratives is because you seriously want to burn down the entire system because you can't get your way, and that supposedly justifies lying?

You're admitting to being a bad faith actor, here.

[Edge-]

The “Need for Chaos” and Motivations to Share Hostile Political Rumors
https://psyarxiv.com/6m4ts/

A Shocking Number of Americans Want to 'Just Let Them All Burn'
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/e...-them-all-burn

...Interesting, but I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at, if anything?

NFC is associated with support for Donald Trump and, more weakly, with support for Bernie Sanders, as the researchers told Edsall.

Interesting research, but it backs a lot of anecdotal discussion on the topic of spreading misinformation and how the Trump camp and Sanders camps shared similarities in this area.

From this vantage point, Trumpism isn't a fever, or even really a political ideology.

Also long discussed, Trump is a symptom, not the disease.

It's an expression of a deep-seated Need for Chaos that manifests itself in all kinds of ways—NFC characteristics might, for instance, explain why online alt-right trolls love to make memes about longshot presidential candidate Andrew Yang.

And also jives with discussion on why some of the alt-righters started throwing their support behind candidates like Yang or Tulsi or Williamson early on.

Interesting looking study though, I'll bookmark for closer reading later.

[Louisa Bannon]

It would really help if you bothered to even read Biden's platform, because you're making claims that fly directly against it. You're not attacking Biden, you're attacking a fiction you made up in your own mind.

Why read what he won't do anyway? Is this like Obama promising to close Guantanamo Bay? Guantanamo Bay is still open indefinitely...

Listen, Canada guy, tell me how we get Medicare for All such that it will actually happen, or you know, step off maybe?

Because since it won't happen, what does someone get for voting Biden? Not trump? Don't care...

[kaelleria]

Lol, Canada guy understands our political system better than the agitator.

[Elegiac]

Why read what he won't do anyway? Is this like Obama promising to close Guantanamo Bay? Guantanamo Bay is still open indefinitely...

Listen, Canada guy, tell me how we get Medicare for All such that it will actually happen, or you know, step off maybe?

Because since it won't happen, what does someone get for voting Biden? Not trump? Don't care...

Yeah, this is pretty obvious sockpuppeting. The current focus in actual leftist circles is pretty much exclusively on the protests and the issues surrounding them. Clinging to a "Bernie or Bust" shtick stinks of a right winger trying to stir shit by recycling old Bernie Bro talking points.

Given how many members of Y'all Qaeda have been spotted trying to start shit disguised as protesters lately, who's surprised?

[Nurasu]

I dont know how anyone can claim to be left of center, and watch bidens speech right now compared to trumps yesterday and say
"oh actually id rather trump win"

Is this the same speech where he came up with the solution of shooting unarmed civilians in the leg instead of the heart? I'd never ever in a million years say I'd prefer Trump to win, but I'd never ever in a million years claim Biden is an intelligent candidate. He's still completely detached from the problems of the Black community and has no idea how to truly relate to them.

[Edge-]

Listen, Canada guy, tell me how we get Medicare for All such that it will actually happen, or you know, step off maybe?

You've been told, you just don't like the answer.

By boiling the frog.

The ACA being the first, concrete step forward towards it and a perfect example of the kind of backlash that will have to be fought against every step of the way.

You and others just seem unhappy that this is the most likely situation, and reactive negatively and with hostility to the notion that M4A may not be something that's immediately implementable.

[Louisa Bannon]

Lol, Canada guy understands our political system better than the agitator.

Nope, just willing to pretend the lies are true. When you vote Democratic, you get effectively nothing. That's been a fact for the average American for decades. Both of our right-wing parties are carefully, methodically, and repeatedly hollowing out the wealth of the middle-class.

[Thekri]

Is this the same speech where he came up with the solution of shooting unarmed civilians in the leg instead of the heart? I'd never ever in a million years say I'd prefer Trump to win, but I'd never ever in a million years claim Biden is an intelligent candidate. He's still completely detached from the problems of the Black community and has no idea how to truly relate to them.

Right now they need someone to take their foot off their neck so they can breath. Trump is insistent on slamming down his knee.

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Nope, just willing to pretend the lies are true. When you vote Democratic, you get effectively nothing. That's been a fact for the average American for decades. Both of our right-wing parties are carefully, methodically, and repeatedly hollowing out the wealth of the middle-class.

But we all know you are voting for Trump anyway. So it doesn't matter.

You aren't convincing anyone with your bizarre logic.

You: Hundreds of people have to get stitches every year because the are bitten by their house cats
Us: Yeah, sounds about right, you do have to be a bit careful with them
You: So you might as well get a tiger, because both cats and tigers can bite you
Us: ... wut?

[Endus]

Why read what he won't do anyway? Is this like Obama promising to close Guantanamo Bay? Guantanamo Bay is still open indefinitely...

You realize Obama tried to close it down, right? Congress blocked it.

The President is not a King.

Listen, Canada guy, tell me how we get Medicare for All such that it will actually happen, or you know, step off maybe?

Because since it won't happen, what does someone get for voting Biden? Not trump? Don't care...

One step at a time, like anywhere else.

In Canada, Tommy Douglas was "the guy". Premier of Saskatchewan starting in '44, introduced medical insurance reform in his first term, and slowly pushed for additional measures over time, building up what became Medicare. The universal program wasn't actually established until the year after he was removed from office, in '62, by his successor, finalizing Douglas' efforts.

That's an 18-year-long process, step by incremental step.

The federal government then studied the Saskatchewan system, and established the federal system in '66. So, about 22 years later. And that first system has been reviewed and revised and adapted and improved ever since.

One step at a time. The same way you accomplish anything in a democratic society.

[Louisa Bannon]

You and others just seem unhappy that this is the most likely situation, and reactive negatively and with hostility to the notion that M4A may not be something that's immediately implementable.

When did Canada get a national health service? How about the U.K.?

Now remind me again why the U.S. can't have that?

It's just stupid to act like there is any intention of EVER allowing the U.S. to be anything more than a careful controlled serfdom.

When a supermajority of Americans support a political idea but still can't get that thing implemented, that's a failure of democracy. It's simply not working any longer. The will of the people is overridden.

[kaelleria]

You realize Obama tried to close it down, right? Congress blocked it.

The President is not a King.



One step at a time, like anywhere else.

In Canada, Tommy Douglas was "the guy". Premier of Saskatchewan starting in '44, introduced medical insurance reform in his first term, and slowly pushed for additional measures over time, building up what became Medicare. The universal program wasn't actually established until the year after he was removed from office, in '62, by his successor, finalizing Douglas' efforts.

That's an 18-year-long process, step by incremental step.

The federal government then studied the Saskatchewan system, and established the federal system in '66. So, about 22 years later. And that first system has been reviewed and revised and adapted and improved ever since.

One step at a time. The same way you accomplish anything in a democratic society.

You're crushing their narrative... STAHP!

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When did Canada get a national health service? How about the U.K.?

Now remind me again why the U.S. can't have that?

It's just stupid to act like there is any intention of EVER allowing the U.S. to be anything more than a careful controlled serfdom.

Go do some actual research on how Canada got its healthcare system... or the UK.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

I like that some people pretend M4A can be accomplished without addressing the massive social issues this country currently has. It can't.

[Edge-]

When did Canada get a national health service? How about the U.K.?

Is the US the U.K? Are we Canada? Do we have the same histories? The same governments? The same cultures?

No?

Well, that was a fucking pointless trip down that alley, then.

Now remind me again why the U.S. can't have that?

I don't have the time dive into everything for the millionth time, especially since it's been covered extensively, but I'll give you some of the greatest hits -

1. A population where half will react with hostility towards anything proposed by the other half: See the ACA protests
2. A deeply rooted industry with millions of workers that needs to be dealt with as it would functionally disappear under M4A
3. The need to actually figure out how to finance the whole thing that won't bankrupt the country or scare the piss out of everyone
4. A political party that's rooted in preventing any positive progress trying to stymie the efforts at every corner.
5. A political ideology that has promoted viewing the government with great skepticism, including openly attacking the governments credibility and shilling a message that the government is both the enemy and incapable of doing anything well

I could go on, but that's just a TLDR for anyone who just woke up from a coma.

It's just stupid to act like there is any intention of EVER allowing the U.S. to be anything more than a careful controlled serfdom.

Cool, so start working to make more radical left wing parties political viable. Don't just bitch and moan about the DNC.

And on the Benghazi thing: https://www.npr.org/2017/01/19/51044...ning-detainees

In 2011, Congress began placing restrictions on Guantanamo transfers in its yearly defense authorization bill, effectively stopping the president from transferring the detainees to a U.S. facility.

Even the detainees cleared for release were stuck in Guantanamo if they couldn't return home. For example, there were dozens of Yemenis who had been cleared but couldn't return to a country descending into a civil war.

It was up to the U.S. State Department to find a country willing to take the men the U.S. would not.

"Until we are able to get a policy, a plan agreed to by a president — and by a Congress — to deal with the reality of, 'What are you going to do to ... address that last group of really hardcore people who are down there?' then this will stay open indefinitely," says Chuck Hagel, who served as U.S. secretary of defense from 2013 to 2015.

Stop making yourself look ignorant.

[Endus]

I like that some people pretend M4A can be accomplished without addressing the massive social issues this country currently has. It can't.

I mean, achieving some kind of universal health care is a big step in solving some of those massive social issues. It's certainly not the only such issue. As we've seen, with this pandemic response in the USA being the world's worst response in no small part because of this, and now that's been eclipsed by the racial inequities that run rampant through society, as symbolized by George Floyd's murder and now the fascist crackdowns on protestors sparked off because of that incident.

- - - Updated - - -

There are people that thought it could be achieved with Bernie simply signing an EO. Ignoring pretty much anything about the US itself, expecting it to happen overnight.

In reality, you could have it voted on now, have it pass, and you'd still be trying to get it properly in place in a decade.

Would every State be fully on-board with establishing those measures? They sure weren't, with the ACA.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

In reality, you could have it voted on now, have it pass, and you'd still be trying to get it properly in place in a decade.

Well, most of these people are completely clueless as to how policy works and how even something like the ACA took forever to implement. It also caused a wipeout of the Democratic Party and has allowed a Republican HHS to slaughter the program.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, achieving some kind of universal health care is a big step in solving some of those massive social issues. It's certainly not the only such issue. As we've seen, with this pandemic response in the USA being the world's worst response in no small part because of this, and now that's been eclipsed by the racial inequities that run rampant through society, as symbolized by George Floyd's murder and now the fascist crackdowns on protestors sparked off because of that incident.

I would point out who's currently running HHS and then ask the question of what people of a similar mentality would do when they controlled everyone's healthcare -- including those who they are actively working against in other avenues.

[Felya]

Why read what he won't do anyway? Is this like Obama promising to close Guantanamo Bay?

Let’s check?

His successor, President Barack Obama, promised that he would close it, but met strong bipartisan opposition from the US Congress, which passed laws to prohibit detainees from Guantanamo being imprisoned in the U.S. During Obama's administration, the number of inmates was reduced from about 245 to 41; most former detainees were freed and transferred to other countries.

Guantanamo Bay is still open indefinitely...

Let’s check that too?

In January 2018, President Donald Trump signed an executive order to keep the detention camp open indefinitely. In May 2018, the first prisoner was transferred during Trump's term; this reduced the number of inmates to 40.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanta...detention_camp

Hey look... you just blamed Obama for something Trump used an executive order to do. Yet, ignored Obama transferring the fast majority of prisoners out of Guantanamo. If Trump was elected, it would be closed by now.

Listen, Canada guy, tell me how we get Medicare for All such that it will actually happen, or you know, step off maybe?

ACA is the first step, which is why a corporation like Trump, dismantled it.

Because since it won't happen, what does someone get for voting Biden? Not trump? Don't care...

Millions lost healthcare because of Trump’s attack on ACA... but, you don’t care.

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Nope, just willing to pretend the lies are true. When you vote Democratic, you get effectively nothing. That's been a fact for the average American for decades. Both of our right-wing parties are carefully, methodically, and repeatedly hollowing out the wealth of the middle-class.

You brought up Guantánamo bay... Obama transferred or released more that 200 inmates, leaving only 41. Trump took over, made it permanent through an executive order.

Trump kicked off millions from their healthcare, while you don’t care.