1. #5841
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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    We could avoid the problem altogether if we just used clear language to communicate ideas. Replace “defund” with “reform” and all of a sudden you have a clear message people can rally behind. With “defund” you have a perfect example of a term that is easy to Motte and Bailey. “Of course we don’t mean abolish the police, that’s just right-wing propaganda gobbledygook.”

    Agreed. The more I consider it, the worse this is looking. Why in the holy fuck did they pick "DEFUND"? Reform. Change. Whatever - but now the GOP can jump on it and change the narrative. All because smart people suck at naming things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Seiklis View Post
    They're two of the last right leaning college towns for a non-religious school (Texas Tech and Clemson respectively)

    If they slip, that's where you'll see a blue Texas

    Cruz beat Beto 64%-35% in Lubbock County, if that were to shift to 58-42...that's where Biden could have a chance
    Ah, ok - that's a very nice canary to keep an eye on, indeed.

  2. #5842
    Old God Milchshake's Avatar
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    It's also a case of how these "revolutionaries" or whatever doesnt understand the electorate. They went from being apolitical for the first 22 years of their lives to full on cosplay socialists.
    "Lets be the Tea Party of the Left"
    When right wingers say "Defund Planned PArenthood" or "Defund the Postal Service" there's no ambiguity there...


    Problem is, Left and Center voters in the US dont react the same way that Tea Party voters do. The Left coalition in the US in way more diverse and complicated. To mobilize, it needs more empathy than dominance politics.

    These Revolutionaries just lack the legwork and empathy to get this. They just seem more interested in revering their Socialist Daddy.
    Government Affiliated Snark

  3. #5843
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    we've seen time and time again that "but actually" doesn't work. talking down to people and calling them ignorant & irrational doesn't work.
    clear & concise messaging is what speaks to the majority of people.
    this is potentially a great opportunity for democrats to showcase what they're all about, protecting civil liberties, promoting social justice and social services. they shouldn't throw it away by letting the right wing muddy the waters.
    Keep It Simple, Stupid.
    Agreed - I mean, fucking DEFUND policy - you almost can't choose a worse word/phrase. Reform would have been so much better.

  4. #5844
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Agreed. The more I consider it, the worse this is looking. Why in the holy fuck did they pick "DEFUND"? Reform. Change. Whatever - but now the GOP can jump on it and change the narrative. All because smart people suck at naming things.
    'Defund' is intended to hold the feet of small-government folks to the fire, and because 'reform' carries connotations of previous 'reform' efforts like in the MPD. People want actionable change.

    Like seriously we're in the middle of a national reexamination on race and y'all are carrying on about nonsense like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  5. #5845
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Agreed - I mean, fucking DEFUND policy - you almost can't choose a worse word/phrase. Reform would have been so much better.
    I get where they're coming from though.

    We've had huge pushes for "reform" for decades and decades, and while there have been some tepid steps, nothing has happened.

    So their rhetoric is being amped up as the "softer" rhetoric that doesn't scare reactionaries too ignorant to do 10 seconds of reading did nothing. And those people who are freaking out about "defund"? They'd be freaking out about pretty much any slogan no matter how sanitized and pedestrian.

    These are two different goals here.

    Protesters/activists goal is to make some big noise this time, the previous attempts haven't worked so they're amping things up. Their goal is very local and immediate, they want cities to take action.

    Bidens goal is to win, so he can't back the amped up rhetoric because unfortunately, he still needs some of those ignorant votes to win.

    Let's not pretend that a more PR friendly, sanitized slogan would be responded to much differently. Right wing reactionaries would still have apoplectic fits over it and nothing would change. The protesters goal isn't a presidency, as that can't deliver structural reform to policing to begin with (though it absolutely can help).

  6. #5846
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I get where they're coming from though.

    We've had huge pushes for "reform" for decades and decades, and while there have been some tepid steps, nothing has happened.

    So their rhetoric is being amped up as the "softer" rhetoric that doesn't scare reactionaries too ignorant to do 10 seconds of reading did nothing. And those people who are freaking out about "defund"? They'd be freaking out about pretty much any slogan no matter how sanitized and pedestrian.

    These are two different goals here.

    Protesters/activists goal is to make some big noise this time, the previous attempts haven't worked so they're amping things up. Their goal is very local and immediate, they want cities to take action.

    Bidens goal is to win, so he can't back the amped up rhetoric because unfortunately, he still needs some of those ignorant votes to win.

    Let's not pretend that a more PR friendly, sanitized slogan would be responded to much differently. Right wing reactionaries would still have apoplectic fits over it and nothing would change. The protesters goal isn't a presidency, as that can't deliver structural reform to policing to begin with (though it absolutely can help).
    So that's where I think they're wrong... Nothing is going to happen without a large amount of federal oversight... Some places may change up their budget, but you'll still have large pockets of the country that won't.

    In order to get that you need some republican support... If you leave yourself open to such an easy attack the conversation ends there.

  7. #5847
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I get where they're coming from though.

    We've had huge pushes for "reform" for decades and decades, and while there have been some tepid steps, nothing has happened.

    So their rhetoric is being amped up as the "softer" rhetoric that doesn't scare reactionaries too ignorant to do 10 seconds of reading did nothing. And those people who are freaking out about "defund"? They'd be freaking out about pretty much any slogan no matter how sanitized and pedestrian.

    These are two different goals here.

    Protesters/activists goal is to make some big noise this time, the previous attempts haven't worked so they're amping things up. Their goal is very local and immediate, they want cities to take action.

    Bidens goal is to win, so he can't back the amped up rhetoric because unfortunately, he still needs some of those ignorant votes to win.

    Let's not pretend that a more PR friendly, sanitized slogan would be responded to much differently. Right wing reactionaries would still have apoplectic fits over it and nothing would change. The protesters goal isn't a presidency, as that can't deliver structural reform to policing to begin with (though it absolutely can help).
    ^ Biden's "trying" to present himself as the MLK to the protesters' Malcolm X.

    But I do not think that this issue is the thing to go all white liberal on, however. Black voices are saying "Defund", so that should be the message here as well.

    And I really don't think a lot of y'all treating this as another "death panels" thing grasp the magnitude of this conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  8. #5848
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    ^ Biden's "trying" to present himself as the MLK to the protesters' Malcolm X.

    But I do not think that this issue is the thing to go all white liberal on, however. Black voices are saying "Defund", so that should be the message here as well.

    And I really don't think a lot of y'all treating this as another "death panels" thing grasp the magnitude of this conversation.
    It's not all black voices though... There are plenty that don't think defunding the police is a good message.

  9. #5849
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    It's also a case of how these "revolutionaries" or whatever doesnt understand the electorate. They went from being apolitical for the first 22 years of their lives to full on cosplay socialists.
    "Lets be the Tea Party of the Left"
    When right wingers say "Defund Planned PArenthood" or "Defund the Postal Service" there's no ambiguity there...


    Problem is, Left and Center voters in the US dont react the same way that Tea Party voters do. The Left coalition in the US in way more diverse and complicated. To mobilize, it needs more empathy than dominance politics.

    These Revolutionaries just lack the legwork and empathy to get this. They just seem more interested in revering their Socialist Daddy.
    The City of Minneapolis is now a base of left wing antifa anarchists? What even is this?

  10. #5850
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    So that's where I think they're wrong... Nothing is going to happen without a large amount of federal oversight... Some places may change up their budget, but you'll still have large pockets of the country that won't.
    The federal government can't force that change upon counties/cities. Police reform has to come at the local level, it's not a "top-down" thing. Yes, consent decrees and DoJ oversight can absolutely help, but those are the band-aides on the currently broken system, they're not a solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    In order to get that you need some republican support... If you leave yourself open to such an easy attack the conversation ends there.
    How? That's living in fantasy land to think that Republicans would support this change, as they've actively fought against it for decades. It's an ideological issue for them, and short of the Republican party coming to their senses again (which ain't happening even if Trump goes out, it's still "his "party in terms of what they've become) they're never gonna sign on with this.

    Case in point: See the extensive support and defense of the police, police brutality, and attacks against victims by Republican officials (need I even mention the Texas GOP which is having a shitshow of a problem with multiple county chairs sharing racist as fuck messages recently?) and conservative commentators.

    This is, as with many things, another issue where Republicans make it impossible to compromise and they must be dragged kicking and screaming against their will towards a better future.

  11. #5851
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    'Defund' is intended to hold the feet of small-government folks to the fire, and because 'reform' carries connotations of previous 'reform' efforts like in the MPD. People want actionable change.

    Like seriously we're in the middle of a national reexamination on race and y'all are carrying on about nonsense like this.
    I'm fully aware of the movement, and what is meant by the Defend Police stance - changing how police forces are formed to center around the needs of the individuals they are policing instead of just tossing them in jail, focusing on social work, mental health, etc.

    The issue is that I want this to succeed, and I want people to get on board. But a shitty naming convention is keeping that momentum from going forward, and the GOP is going to capitalize on it as well. And it's not nonsense - because it will demonstrably affect the overall movement as it goes from liberal cities to moderate cities, looking for buy in.

    They should have picked a better word. Defund doesn't even make sense for what they want to actually do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I get where they're coming from though.

    We've had huge pushes for "reform" for decades and decades, and while there have been some tepid steps, nothing has happened.

    So their rhetoric is being amped up as the "softer" rhetoric that doesn't scare reactionaries too ignorant to do 10 seconds of reading did nothing. And those people who are freaking out about "defund"? They'd be freaking out about pretty much any slogan no matter how sanitized and pedestrian.

    These are two different goals here.

    Protesters/activists goal is to make some big noise this time, the previous attempts haven't worked so they're amping things up. Their goal is very local and immediate, they want cities to take action.

    Bidens goal is to win, so he can't back the amped up rhetoric because unfortunately, he still needs some of those ignorant votes to win.

    Let's not pretend that a more PR friendly, sanitized slogan would be responded to much differently. Right wing reactionaries would still have apoplectic fits over it and nothing would change. The protesters goal isn't a presidency, as that can't deliver structural reform to policing to begin with (though it absolutely can help).
    But there is a middle ground of people who are open to signing on to this idea, and are being lost because of a naming convention. Why pick "Defund"? Why not something else, more along the lines of change? I get that "Reform" is no longer useful. I get that something BIG was necessary to get people's attention.

  12. #5852
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurasu View Post
    The City of Minneapolis is now a base of left wing antifa anarchists? What even is this?
    Milchshake is a centrist conservative who constantly goes off like this on anything to the left of him. How that turned into turning a anarcho-communist/socialist symbol into a pro-biden symbol... I will never know.

  13. #5853
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But a shitty naming convention is keeping that momentum from going forward
    I cannot firmly reject this notion enough.

    The fucking color of the paint on the exterior trim isn't why the house isn't selling, you can repaint the exterior trim whatever the fuck color you want at pretty minimal cost.

    If it was a naming thing, why not the dozens of other times there have been national protests pushing for police "reform" in the wake of the police murder, or near murder, of an unarmed, innocent man (usually of color) for literally nothing or for a petty misdemeanor crime?

    I mean, how many more people do cops need to kill before we start saying, "Yay, maybe pushing for more radical change is how we get this ball rolling, because all our previous attempts haven't worked"? And this is a pretty fucking minor detail, too.

  14. #5854
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    Milchshake is a centrist conservative who constantly goes off like this on anything to the left of him. How that turned into turning a anarcho-communist/socialist symbol into a pro-biden symbol... I will never know.
    Biden explaining his crime legislation as a progressive:

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?c48436...me-legislation
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  15. #5855
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But there is a middle ground of people who are open to signing on to this idea, and are being lost because of a naming convention.
    Where the fuck have they been for the past...let's say decade? How much longer should people wait for these kindly folk to come to their senses and say, "Yay, cops murdering innocent people is bad!"?

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Why pick "Defund"? Why not something else, more along the lines of change? I get that "Reform" is no longer useful. I get that something BIG was necessary to get people's attention.
    Because, unlike previous attempts that are easy to dismiss and sanitize, it catches peoples attention. It causes racist TV hosts like Tucker Carlson to have segments pearl clutching about mass-crime coming without the police.

    It's not a winning electoral issue, because it's not an electoral issue for these people right now. Not at a national level. Most of this can, and will be accomplished on the local level. Within the state. Within the county. Within the city. That's where more change can be done to address these issues, and where efforts need to be focused. Federal support is great, but you can't fix this from a top-down perspective.

  16. #5856
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    So that's where I think they're wrong... Nothing is going to happen without a large amount of federal oversight... Some places may change up their budget, but you'll still have large pockets of the country that won't.

    In order to get that you need some republican support... If you leave yourself open to such an easy attack the conversation ends there.
    The good old 'peace before justice' route.

    Nothing says you have the back of minorities when you compromise their demands with the same people who defer equality.

    'Guys, just hold off 15-20 more years until things boils over again.' Says people who are aren't directly impacted by decades of the systemic charades.

    By all means the Dems need to win big 2020. A win isn't throwing throwing a piece of your base under the bus to kiss ass with people who do not even pretend to care about the wants of the needs of left-wing platforms.

    Keep thinking short term and that's all any 2020 victory be, short-termed.

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  17. #5857
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Agreed - I mean, fucking DEFUND policy - you almost can't choose a worse word/phrase. Reform would have been so much better.
    Trump can't really use it against Biden, though he might try. Biden has already stated defunding the police is not an option or a path for reform.

    Democratic presidential contender Joe Biden's campaign said on Monday that the former vice president does not support calls to defund the police amid growing calls to do so by activists across the country.

    “As his criminal justice proposal made clear months ago, Vice President Biden does not believe that police should be defunded," Biden campaign spokesman Andrew Bates told reporters.

    "He hears and shares the deep grief and frustration of those calling out for change, and is driven to ensure that justice is done and that we put a stop to this terrible pain," Bates added. "Biden supports the urgent need for reform — including funding for public schools, summer programs, and mental health and substance abuse treatment separate from funding for policing — so that officers can focus on the job of policing."
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...und-the-police

  18. #5858
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Where the fuck have they been for the past...let's say decade?
    Being defeated by law and order republicans...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  19. #5859
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Where the fuck have they been for the past...let's say decade? How much longer should people wait for these kindly folk to come to their senses and say, "Yay, cops murdering innocent people is bad!"?



    Because, unlike previous attempts that are easy to dismiss and sanitize, it catches peoples attention. It causes racist TV hosts like Tucker Carlson to have segments pearl clutching about mass-crime coming without the police.

    It's not a winning electoral issue, because it's not an electoral issue for these people right now. Not at a national level. Most of this can, and will be accomplished on the local level. Within the state. Within the county. Within the city. That's where more change can be done to address these issues, and where efforts need to be focused. Federal support is great, but you can't fix this from a top-down perspective.
    you want to catch attention, yes. you want them to be intrigued, not dismiss the issue out of hand.
    i think it may be too late, but it has a strong possibility to backfire. the right wing are already attempting to steer the narrative to "law and order" and this is changing the heading to dead on into that. "see? the people calling for police reform really just want to be free to steal and loot as they please".

  20. #5860
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    The federal government can't force that change upon counties/cities. Police reform has to come at the local level, it's not a "top-down" thing. Yes, consent decrees and DoJ oversight can absolutely help, but those are the band-aides on the currently broken system, they're not a solution.



    How? That's living in fantasy land to think that Republicans would support this change, as they've actively fought against it for decades. It's an ideological issue for them, and short of the Republican party coming to their senses again (which ain't happening even if Trump goes out, it's still "his "party in terms of what they've become) they're never gonna sign on with this.

    Case in point: See the extensive support and defense of the police, police brutality, and attacks against victims by Republican officials (need I even mention the Texas GOP which is having a shitshow of a problem with multiple county chairs sharing racist as fuck messages recently?) and conservative commentators.

    This is, as with many things, another issue where Republicans make it impossible to compromise and they must be dragged kicking and screaming against their will towards a better future.
    I think there's enough former republican Independents that would support a STOP BEING RACIST MURDERS Act that curtailed federal funding for states and municipalities that didn't follow through. Stronger federal investigative bodies, stuff like that.

    If we can't, then there's no chance of any reform happening in places like Texas that you just mentioned.

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