Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Elegiac]

you want to catch attention, yes. you want them to be intrigued, not dismiss the issue out of hand.
i think it may be too late, but it has a strong possibility to backfire. the right wing are already attempting to steer the narrative to "law and order" and this is changing the heading to dead on into that. "see? the people calling for police reform really just want to be free to steal and loot as they please".

Kinda hard to do that when there's a 400+ post twitter thread full of videos of police brutality against these protesters.

[kaelleria]

The good old 'peace before justice' route.

Nothing says you have the back of minorities when you compromise their demands with the same people who defer equality.

'Guys, just hold off 15-20 more years until things boils over again.' Says people who are aren't directly impacted by decades of the systemic charades.

By all means the Dems need to win big 2020. A win isn't throwing throwing a piece of your base under the bus to kiss ass with people who do not even pretend to care about the wants of the needs of left-wing platforms.

Keep thinking short term and that's all any 2020 victory be, short-termed.

How do you change stuff in east bumblefuck Texas? Or Rural Georgia? Explain that.

[Elegiac]

How do you change stuff in east bumblefuck Texas? Or Rural Georgia? Explain that.

Reconstruction 2.0, which is what this is in case the white liberals present still haven't gotten the picture.

[Edge-]

Being defeated by law and order republicans...

I mean, are people too lazy to even spend 10 seconds to understand a slogan really going to be allies? If they're too lazy for that, are they really going to get out there and fight? Put out far more effort than a 10 second search and a few minutes of reading? Are they gonna go out there and put their bodies on the line? Put their money on the line? No, they're fucking not. Because if a slogan is enough to trigger them into inaction, then they were never fucking potential allies to begin with. They were people happy with the status quo who want to return to it, nothing more.

This wasn't directed at you, but I just had more to say on this because I keep hearing, "Just wait and take it slow and do it peacefully and don't ruffle feathers and and and and and" far, far too often from folks I know and others around and I have the same, uncomfortable question for all of them:

How many more people, including primarily people of color, need to be murdered or brutalized by the police before it's enough? How many more deaths, how many more lives ruined, how many more gross abuses, before it's enough? How many so that these people can keep their moral conscious "clear" because they did things the "right" way?

Because almost universally, this sentiment comes from the very people of privilege who are least affected by these issues. My mother being one of them, and despite being a woke leftie more involved as she's retired, we've had extensive arguments over this and she's always told me that it's not a fair question. And it's not a fair question, because it requires people to confront real, uncomfortable realities about who they are and what they believe.

[Felya]

Kinda hard to do that when there's a 400+ post twitter thread full of videos of police brutality against these protesters.

Harder than convincing people Obama is a foreign born terrorist?

[starlord]

Kinda hard to do that when there's a 400+ post twitter thread full of videos of police brutality against these protesters.

not everyone has or cares about twitter, remember.

[Elegiac]

not everyone has or cares about twitter, remember.

You do realise video format is like...communicable to other platforms, right?

[kaelleria]

Reconstruction 2.0, which is what this is in case the white liberals present still haven't gotten the picture.

Ok sure... do it. How do you do this without moderate independent support?

[Elegiac]

Speaking of Twitter, trending at number 1 is currently "#PeoplesBudgetLA" - in reference to the grassroots campaign for...Defunding the Police.



So calm down, pearl clutchers. Use "People's Budget" or "Care Not Cops". More easily digestible soundbites to follow.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok sure... do it. How do you do this without moderate independent support?

"Your" support, hun. Just say "your" support.

[Endus]

We could avoid the problem altogether if we just used clear language to communicate ideas. Replace “defund” with “reform” and all of a sudden you have a clear message people can rally behind. With “defund” you have a perfect example of a term that is easy to Motte and Bailey. “Of course we don’t mean abolish the police, that’s just right-wing propaganda gobbledygook.”

Because it means exactly what it says.

The reason not to use a meaningless generic term is because it is meaningless and generic. "Reform" doesn't propose anything. It says "make better" without making any effort to suggest how. You could, in theory, "reform" the police by giving them all a happy-face button to make them seem less threatening, but not actually doing anything meaningful. Whereas defunding them will, necessarily, have direct and meaningful outcomes.

The same argument will play out no matter what generic platitude you pick; "change", "improve", "restructure", none of these mean anything, without explanatory context. "Defund" is that context. We're skipping the platitude, and getting at the core.

I think the real issue is that people are so used to comforting-but-meaningless platitudes that a bald-faced direct statement of intent is so stark it seems frightening. But what frightens you is, fundamentally, direct honesty, without any attempt made to shave the corners off to try and make it more palatable, because that process is how you turn any movement into a meaningless, directionless platitude.

[starlord]

I mean, are people too lazy to even spend 10 seconds to understand a slogan really going to be allies? If they're too lazy for that, are they really going to get out there and fight? Put out far more effort than a 10 second search and a few minutes of reading? Are they gonna go out there and put their bodies on the line? Put their money on the line? No, they're fucking not. Because if a slogan is enough to trigger them into inaction, then they were never fucking potential allies to begin with. They were people happy with the status quo who want to return to it, nothing more.

This wasn't directed at you, but I just had more to say on this because I keep hearing, "Just wait and take it slow and do it peacefully and don't ruffle feathers and and and and and" far, far too often from folks I know and others around and I have the same, uncomfortable question for all of them:

How many more people, including primarily people of color, need to be murdered or brutalized by the police before it's enough? How many more deaths, how many more lives ruined, how many more gross abuses, before it's enough? How many so that these people can keep their moral conscious "clear" because they did things the "right" way?

Because almost universally, this sentiment comes from the very people of privilege who are least affected by these issues. My mother being one of them, and despite being a woke leftie more involved as she's retired, we've had extensive arguments over this and she's always told me that it's not a fair question. And it's not a fair question, because it requires people to confront real, uncomfortable realities about who they are and what they believe.

you have to balance your rhetoric against, for example, literal roaming packs of looters in LA, and people burning down post offices for the lulz. these are real things happening that people are concerned about.
minority owned business and neighborhoods are being destroyed, it's not a "privilege" issue.
there is a real drive for police reform, i don't want to see it squandered.

[Elegiac]

you have to balance your rhetoric against, for example, literal roaming packs of looters in LA, and people burning down post offices for the lulz.

Oh for fuck's sake. Show us the evidence that this is happening on a wide scale. Come on. Because the actual facts are that the vast majority of these demonstrations have been peaceful until attacked by the same militarized police they're protesting against.

You people have been sitting on the fence for so long you've forgotten how to stand up.

[cubby]

I cannot firmly reject this notion enough.

The fucking color of the paint on the exterior trim isn't why the house isn't selling, you can repaint the exterior trim whatever the fuck color you want at pretty minimal cost.

If it was a naming thing, why not the dozens of other times there have been national protests pushing for police "reform" in the wake of the police murder, or near murder, of an unarmed, innocent man (usually of color) for literally nothing or for a petty misdemeanor crime?

I mean, how many more people do cops need to kill before we start saying, "Yay, maybe pushing for more radical change is how we get this ball rolling, because all our previous attempts haven't worked"? And this is a pretty fucking minor detail, too.

The color of the house and the trim can affect the selling of the house, which is my point. A better naming convention, one that is less confusing to those that are being introduced to it, would help. That's my only point.

You know I agree with the whole movement, right? The entire thing - I'm all in. I'm just arguing that the marketing department could have done a better job.

[Elegiac]

The color of the house and the trim can affect the selling of the house, which is my point. A better naming convention, one that is less confusing to those that are being introduced to it, would help. That's my only point.

You know I agree with the whole movement, right? The entire thing - I'm all in. I'm just arguing that the marketing department could have done a better job.

And we're saying: sit down. This is not that kind of issue, and it's just betraying a viewpoint of overly sanitized political messages as the default.

[Felya]

I mean, are people too lazy to even spend 10 seconds to understand a slogan really going to be allies?

Affordable Care Act was supported by the public, while ObamaCare wasn’t. At some point democrats need to learn...

If they're too lazy for that, are they really going to get out there and fight? Put out far more effort than a 10 second search and a few minutes of reading? Are they gonna go out there and put their bodies on the line? Put their money on the line? No, they're fucking not. Because if a slogan is enough to trigger them into inaction, then they were never fucking potential allies to begin with. They were people happy with the status quo who want to return to it, nothing more.

That depends... are you looking for people to fight or to vote?

This wasn't directed at you, but I just had more to say on this because I keep hearing, "Just wait and take it slow and do it peacefully and don't ruffle feathers and and and and and" far, far too often from folks I know and others around and I have the same, uncomfortable question for all of them:

It’s not waiting and taking it slow. The link I provided on previous page, is Biden talking about GOP winning on the law and order platform in the 80s. Democrats law, order and justice, didn’t resonate. With Biden being the iconoclast law and order Democrat. This is about perception and GOP is winning that argument... has been winning that argument for 40 years. While those who tried to buck it, are now being treated like traitors.

How many more people, including primarily people of color, need to be murdered or brutalized by the police before it's enough? How many more deaths, how many more lives ruined, how many more gross abuses, before it's enough? How many so that these people can keep their moral conscious "clear" because they did things the "right" way?

For the electorate? I don’t know... 100000 dead, didn’t seem to move the needle...

Because almost universally, this sentiment comes from the very people of privilege who are least affected by these issues. My mother being one of them, and despite being a woke leftie more involved as she's retired, we've had extensive arguments over this and she's always told me that it's not a fair question. And it's not a fair question, because it requires people to confront real, uncomfortable realities about who they are and what they believe.

I’m going to reach for an analogy here... In Last Boy Scout movie, the good guys try to warn a neighboring car of a bomb, by writing “Boom!!!” on a paper and sticking it for the car to see. Well, turns out “boom” means “fuck you” in their language and they start shooting... You are preaching to the quire by saying “defund the police”, the problem is that others are hearing “fuck you”.

[cubby]

Where the fuck have they been for the past...let's say decade? How much longer should people wait for these kindly folk to come to their senses and say, "Yay, cops murdering innocent people is bad!"?

Because, unlike previous attempts that are easy to dismiss and sanitize, it catches peoples attention. It causes racist TV hosts like Tucker Carlson to have segments pearl clutching about mass-crime coming without the police.

It's not a winning electoral issue, because it's not an electoral issue for these people right now. Not at a national level. Most of this can, and will be accomplished on the local level. Within the state. Within the county. Within the city. That's where more change can be done to address these issues, and where efforts need to be focused. Federal support is great, but you can't fix this from a top-down perspective.

I agree with everything you're saying. My argument is only that the name could have been better. Look at the mantra:

Focus on the local. Local needs, local people, local understanding.

Awesome. Spot on. Let's do it immediately. And here's the name of it:

Defund the Police

...er...whut? I don't want to defund the police. Nevermind.

This isn't me - this is people who we want to get on board. Doesn't matter why. My wife works in this field significantly, and she came up with a great phrase, the "learning entry point" (may not be hers originally, of course). People's learning entry point for this movement will be HERE - NOW. And we might not get as many because the name sucks.

[Elegiac]

I agree with everything you're saying. My argument is only that the name could have been better. Look at the mantra:

Focus on the local. Local needs, local people, local understanding.

Awesome. Spot on. Let's do it immediately. And here's the name of it:

Defund the Police

...er...whut? I don't want to defund the police. Nevermind.

This isn't me - this is people who we want to get on board. Doesn't matter why. My wife works in this field significantly, and she came up with a great phrase, the "learning entry point" (may not be hers originally, of course). People's learning entry point for this movement will be HERE - NOW. And we might not get as many because the name sucks.

If this hypothetical person is still wondering where 'defund the police' is coming from given everything that is happening how in the fuck do you think some white liberal nonsense like "reform the police" is going to spur them to take an interest?

That is why this is happening. Because every goddamn time we ask for an inch, we are told that we are asking for too much by the people that ostensibly support us.

If you or this hypothetical white moderate can't grasp the urgency? Sit down.

[cubby]

Trump can't really use it against Biden, though he might try. Biden has already stated defunding the police is not an option or a path for reform.

Democratic presidential contender Joe Biden's campaign said on Monday that the former vice president does not support calls to defund the police amid growing calls to do so by activists across the country.

“As his criminal justice proposal made clear months ago, Vice President Biden does not believe that police should be defunded," Biden campaign spokesman Andrew Bates told reporters.

"He hears and shares the deep grief and frustration of those calling out for change, and is driven to ensure that justice is done and that we put a stop to this terrible pain," Bates added. "Biden supports the urgent need for reform — including funding for public schools, summer programs, and mental health and substance abuse treatment separate from funding for policing — so that officers can focus on the job of policing."

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...und-the-police

Exactly. And now Biden can't get on board with this because the name fucking sucks.

[starlord]

Oh for fuck's sake. Show us the evidence that this is happening on a wide scale. Come on. Because the actual facts are that the vast majority of these demonstrations have been peaceful until attacked by the same militarized police they're protesting against.

You people have been sitting on the fence for so long you've forgotten how to stand up.

https://www.newsbreak.com/california...-unrest-mounts

https://www.google.com/amp/s/lbpost....ong-beach/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thereal...ong-beach/amp/

denying it just gives more ammo to the right wing.

[Edge-]

you have to balance your rhetoric against, for example, literal roaming packs of looters in LA

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/loo...-angry-we-are/

I'm not actually even seeing any recent reports of this. Seems to have stopped days ago, so if folks still believe they're out there then that's probably because they're getting garbage information to begin with. Those folks aren't gonna be allies.

and people burning down post offices for the lulz.

It seems that only two in Minneapolis were burnt down. I'm not seeing much about them elsewhere and if people believe this is widespread then again, they're getting bad information and wouldn't be allies to begin with.

these are real things happening that people are concerned about.

I don't prioritize property over life. People who do have some odd priorities. You don't see the fire department show up because someone is locked in a building and go, "Well, there's simply nothing we can do. We could break down the door, but that would be property damage and we can't do that to save someone."

minority owned business and neighborhoods are being destroyed, it's not a "privilege" issue.

Sadly, a handful have been. And racists are holding those up as a shield from criticism and being wielded as a cudgel against the protesters writ-large. Don't side with the racists.

there is a real drive for police reform, i don't want to see it squandered.

Horse shit. We've seen no meaningful changes in over a decade of this shit happening again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again and if I thought you'd read them I'd actually be linking to each time there were widespread national protests following the murder of an unarmed black person for...sleeping, selling cigarettes, paying with a counterfeit $20, wearing a hoodie, being in their home at night, driving a car, having a legal firearm, being pregnant and I'll stop here.

This ain't an electoral issue.

Police reform is an electoral issue. That's why Biden is taking that on.

Defund the police is not an electoral issue. It's a local issue that requires more dramatic change than what can be done on a federal level.