Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Elegiac]

Exactly. And now Biden can't get on board with this because the name fucking sucks.

Fine. And you know what? Let him. Let's see the usual centrist response to this crisis and watch how downtown Seattle or Los Angeles gets burned to the ground or turned into active police states because the principle concern is not ruffling feathers.

The most useless allies in existence are moderate allies, Christ and Allah.

[cubby]

If this hypothetical person is still wondering where 'defund the police' is coming from given everything that is happening how in the fuck do you think some white liberal nonsense like "reform the police" is going to spur them to take an interest?

That is why this is happening. Because every goddamn time we ask for an inch, we are told that we are asking for too much by the people that ostensibly support us.

Sit down.

You realize you're shouting at someone who is intimately involved in this movement, right?

And the question isn't "where is this coming from" because, well, duh. The question is what does the movement want? And right now it sounds to the uninformed person that the movement wants to defund police.

And to those of you arguing that the name doesn't matter, then why did we choose this one? Why not Localize Police? Or Reform Police? Or Change Police?

And I'm not asking saying that anyone is asking for too much - the entire Defund Police movement is both brilliant and far overdue. Just a shitty name that will turn possible allies away.

[Elegiac]

And to those of you arguing that the name doesn't matter, then why did we choose this one? Why not Localize Police? Or Reform Police? Or Change Police?

We're not arguing that the name doesn't matter.

We are arguing that those names represent the same nonsense reform packages that have done exactly fuck all to address this issue and betray a stance that, even now, the main concern is looking presentable. And we're arguing that those names betray an internalisation of the belief that tone is more important than content, which is something that is deliberately buttressed in our culture precisely because it's a convenient cudgel against actual reform.

[kaelleria]

Speaking of Twitter, trending at number 1 is currently "#PeoplesBudgetLA" - in reference to the grassroots campaign for...Defunding the Police.



So calm down, pearl clutchers. Use "People's Budget" or "Care Not Cops". More easily digestible soundbites to follow.

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"Your" support, hun. Just say "your" support.

Oh for fucks sake. Don't mistake my want for better messaging for my support in completely changing the way policing in this country works.

Defund the police is a terrible message because it needs to be explained.

[cubby]

Oh for fuck's sake. Show us the evidence that this is happening on a wide scale. Come on. Because the actual facts are that the vast majority of these demonstrations have been peaceful until attacked by the same militarized police they're protesting against.

You people have been sitting on the fence for so long you've forgotten how to stand up.

This is insanely true. There is amble evidence out there, most recently IIRC in Seattle, where the demonstration was entirely peaceful, right up to the point where the police literally attacked.

Fucking abomination.

Our police forces have been militarized over a long period of time to the point where they are using U.S. Army hardware and tools banned by the Geneva Convention to "police" the citizenry. Oh, and murdering black people.

[Felya]

Oh for fuck's sake. Show us the evidence that this is happening on a wide scale. Come on. Because the actual facts are that the vast majority of these demonstrations have been peaceful until attacked by the same militarized police they're protesting against.

Rhetoric does not require a wide scale or fact. Just check any conservative leaning source... There have been articles from Fox that claims democrats and republicans are the establishment fighting against Trump’s law and order. Even GOP speaking out in support of these protestors, is being spun as the establishment trying to over take the rule of law.

[Elegiac]

Based on what someone said the other day about the amount of cash involved with the US police force (captain having his own plane or whatever it was), by all means, defund some of them.

You guys are arguing over the use of a single word and how it isn't the right word, doing the Republican's work for them.

Blame the white liberals for getting cold feet because all strong political beliefs are equally worthless to them, honestly. And that's just a noisy minority now, anyway, so we should just ignore it and keep on protesting because it looks like that is what is needed to effect some goddamn change in this country.

[Edge-]

The color of the house and the trim can affect the selling of the house, which is my point. A better naming convention, one that is less confusing to those that are being introduced to it, would help. That's my only point.

It may affect the price of the house, but if someone wants the house, they're gonna buy it and repaint the trim.

You know I agree with the whole movement, right? The entire thing - I'm all in. I'm just arguing that the marketing department could have done a better job.

Seeing a lot of this, lately. "I'm fully supportive of their movement, I just think they need to tone it down a bit because they're getting too uppity and it might drive police, civil folks who could be allies off."

I full realize and admit that this isn't an accurate representation of your words as you wrote them. But damn if that ain't the strong subtext, because it's been the rhetoric that's been used for years to justify support via inaction.

https://www.newsbreak.com/california...-unrest-mounts

https://www.google.com/amp/s/lbpost....ong-beach/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thereal...ong-beach/amp/

denying it just gives more ammo to the right wing.

Also, largely over that single weekend, while protests have continue daily across the nation, gaining strength and momentum, without continued widespread looting (though there remains some isolated instances in some larger cities).

You act like the right wing "needs" ammo. They don't. They never have, and they never will. Where none exists, they manufacture it.

See: Fox News selectively editing a clip of police being flagged down by black store owners who were trying to protect their store and point the cops towards looters, who were aggresively detained without questioning immediately upon the arrival of the police. While this happened, a local reporter begged with the cops to leave the store owners alone, confirming that they were not the looters and were trying to get assistance from the police.

Fox News edited out everything except the cops cuffing the store owners against a wall, not showing any indication that they'd behaved inapporpriately.

Because. It. Doesn't. Matter.

Don't fucking play their game, because you won't win it.

[cubby]

We're not arguing that the name doesn't matter.

We are arguing that those names represent the same nonsense reform packages that have done exactly fuck all to address this issue and betray a stance that, even now, the main concern is looking presentable. And we're arguing that those names betray an internalisation of the belief that tone is more important than content, which is something that is deliberately buttressed in our culture precisely because it's a convenient cudgel against actual reform.

This is very well said, thank you. Seriously.

So why "Defund Police" then? It's not accurate. It doesn't describe what the movement wants to do, does it? You're not suggesting we literally defend existing police departments, right?

[Elegiac]

This is very well said, thank you. Seriously.

So why "Defund Police" then? It's not accurate. It doesn't describe what the movement wants to do, does it? You're not suggesting we literally defund existing police departments, right?

I mean, it does when you smack people over the head with facts like this.

[Edge-]

And to those of you arguing that the name doesn't matter, then why did we choose this one? Why not Localize Police? Or Reform Police? Or Change Police?

I'm a communications guy by profession, so I do things with words and understand their importance.

"Localize Police" - What does that even mean? They're already local. Does localizing it mean that they're "more local" now? That they have to live in the cities they police? Don't most of them already do that? Does it matter if they don't?

"Reform Police" - See previous posts, this has been the refrain for decades, with fuckall to show for it. It's dead.

"Change Police" - ...ok? Are they gonna start wearing purple uniforms? Are they gonna start driving Toyota's? We gonna force them all to wear tophats? Get more white supremacists in? Get black supremacists in? Change them how? In what way?

Most of these are surprisingly passive verbs. "Localize" is not an action word. "Reform" is an action word, but it's a very cautious one. "Change" is an action word, but an amorphous one with a great many meanings.

This is what we'd call "Chickenshit corporate sanitizing", where you run a statement or comment through so many rounds of PR review that it loses any emotional connection or value and becomes as meaningless as all those feel-good posts from gaming companies about the protests that were largely followed by no actual action.

[starlord]

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/loo...-angry-we-are/

I'm not actually even seeing any recent reports of this. Seems to have stopped days ago, so if folks still believe they're out there then that's probably because they're getting garbage information to begin with. Those folks aren't gonna be allies.



It seems that only two in Minneapolis were burnt down. I'm not seeing much about them elsewhere and if people believe this is widespread then again, they're getting bad information and wouldn't be allies to begin with.

I don't prioritize property over life. People who do have some odd priorities. You don't see the fire department show up because someone is locked in a building and go, "Well, there's simply nothing we can do. We could break down the door, but that would be property damage and we can't do that to save someone."



Sadly, a handful have been. And racists are holding those up as a shield from criticism and being wielded as a cudgel against the protesters writ-large. Don't side with the racists.



Horse shit. We've seen no meaningful changes in over a decade of this shit happening again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again and if I thought you'd read them I'd actually be linking to each time there were widespread national protests following the murder of an unarmed black person for...sleeping, selling cigarettes, paying with a counterfeit $20, wearing a hoodie, being in their home at night, driving a car, having a legal firearm, being pregnant and I'll stop here.

This ain't an electoral issue.

Police reform is an electoral issue. That's why Biden is taking that on.

Defund the police is not an electoral issue. It's a local issue that requires more dramatic change than what can be done on a federal level.

we've already seen how well the "we don't need to explain anything and if you aren't pure enough fuck you" strategy worked out.

local issues are decided by local elections, if you forgot. who's going to elect the mayors, city council, sheriff etc to make the needed reforms?

[cubby]

It may affect the price of the house, but if someone wants the house, they're gonna buy it and repaint the trim.



Seeing a lot of this, lately. "I'm fully supportive of their movement, I just think they need to tone it down a bit because they're getting too uppity and it might drive police, civil folks who could be allies off."

I full realize and admit that this isn't an accurate representation of your words as you wrote them. But damn if that ain't the strong subtext, because it's been the rhetoric that's been used for years to justify support via inaction.

Ok, I definitely understand the tone argument - and thank you for phrasing it that way. And you are right, to a certain extend - it's not my intention, but it certainly could seem that way, and certainly have that affect.

And I will add to this, I'm definitely a recruit - my wife is the leader in this category, by design and profession (she works at a high level in Foundation work). So I'm definitely learning new things all the time.

So let me ask you this - it's the movement now that matters, right? Why the misnomer for the label? Is it shock value? @Elegiac has a fantastic paragraph in answer to our discussion. Fucking loved it.

[Edge-]

local issues are decided by local elections, if you forgot. who's going to elect the mayors, city council, sheriff etc to make the needed reforms?

Who's going to elect those that will do something? Right now, the protesters. They're the ones who are gonna vote those folks in, and they're already on board.

Who's not? The folks sitting at home pearl clutching or fence-sitting. If they're not on board after a week of police brutality caught on video and shared across the internet and across national and local TV shows, on radio etc., then they're not gonna be on board if you try to use baby-talk to get them to agree that maybe the cops shouldn't fucking murder and brutalize peaceful protesters out there pushing for accountability and reform.

This is not a "compromise" issue at the local level. I cannot afford to be any longer, because it's been a "compromise issue" for decades, and that "compromise" has been continue murder and brutality at the hands of the police.

Which is why I don't actually mind Biden not saddling up with the "Defund the Police" slogan/movement. Because he needs to reach those people to get elected for very different reasons, and because honestly, I don't think anyone would fucking believe him if he did saddle up to it.

[cubby]

I mean, it does when you smack people over the head with facts like this.

Interesting - we were just talking about that repurposing of funds last night. How the mayor is putting the $$$ into social funds. And that chart, even after the $150M shift, still fucking sucks.

So the real question is, do we need a police force? Not joking with this question - and I'm seeing it come up a lot at the leading edge of this movement. My wife and I were talking about it a couple of nights ago and I was really struggling with it.

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I'm a communications guy by profession, so I do things with words and understand their importance.

"Localize Police" - What does that even mean? They're already local. Does localizing it mean that they're "more local" now? That they have to live in the cities they police? Don't most of them already do that? Does it matter if they don't?

"Reform Police" - See previous posts, this has been the refrain for decades, with fuckall to show for it. It's dead.

"Change Police" - ...ok? Are they gonna start wearing purple uniforms? Are they gonna start driving Toyota's? We gonna force them all to wear tophats? Get more white supremacists in? Get black supremacists in? Change them how? In what way?

Most of these are surprisingly passive verbs. "Localize" is not an action word. "Reform" is an action word, but it's a very cautious one. "Change" is an action word, but an amorphous one with a great many meanings.

This is what we'd call "Chickenshit corporate sanitizing", where you run a statement or comment through so many rounds of PR review that it loses any emotional connection or value and becomes as meaningless as all those feel-good posts from gaming companies about the protests that were largely followed by no actual action.

Ok, interesting.

I used to be a communications guy, only from college major and debate. To me, Defund means remove them completely, take away all their funding. Which is not the goal, right?

[Edge-]

So let me ask you this - it's the movement now that matters, right? Why the misnomer for the label? Is it shock value? @Elegiac has a fantastic paragraph in answer to our discussion. Fucking loved it.

I think he hit the nail pretty much head on and don't really have much more to add.

Also, "police, civil..." should have been "polite, civil..." >.<

Damn muscle memory for the past week+

[Paranoid Android]

Press Sec. Kayleigh McEnany: "Mitt Romney can say three words outside on Pennsylvania Avenue but I would note this -- that President Trump won 8% of the black vote."

Haha! 8 percent? I guess she is bragging about that number, plus they lie is it even 8%?

I wanted to post in Trump thread, but sorta relevant in this post.

[cubby]

I think he hit the nail pretty much head on and don't really have much more to add.

Also, "police, civil..." should have been "polite, civil..." >.<

Damn muscle memory for the past week+

Ok, gotcha - thanks for walking me through your thinking. @Elegiac too. It's always good to learn something, and I have always been open to being wrong and learning new things. I needed some more ammo in my pouch for pushing this movement. Thank you.

[kaelleria]

That's not real.... No way.

And doctors and nurses struggle to have basic necessities. During a pandemic.

It's very real...

Most major metros have similar looking charts... but the issue is no one realizes it...

[Elegiac]

Interesting - we were just talking about that repurposing of funds last night. How the mayor is putting the $$$ into social funds. And that chart, even after the $150M shift, still fucking sucks.

So the real question is, do we need a police force? Not joking with this question - and I'm seeing it come up a lot at the leading edge of this movement. My wife and I were talking about it a couple of nights ago and I was really struggling with it.

It's a valid question, simply because policing as we understand was always less a function of "public safety" and more one of "public sanitation"; suppression of dissent and disorder that is deemed undesirable to society at large. While in a lot of cases that disorder is like, manifestly bad (i.e. arson, vandalism, etc.), in many others 'disorder' tends to mean things like political dissident organizations, labor unions, and demographic minorities. The police are the means by which the state exercises its domestic monopoly of violence.

I think it's less a discussion of "Do we need police?" and more "What should law enforcement look like?". Rolling Stone ran an excellent article about several ideas for a cop-free world. This one stands out in particular as to how fundamental our evaluation of policing needs to be:

2. The decriminalization of almost every nonviolent crime

What is considered criminal is something too often debated only in critical criminology seminars, and too rarely in the mainstream. Violent offenses count for a fraction of the 11 to 14 million arrests every year, and yet there is no real conversation about what constitutes a crime and what permits society to put a person in chains and a cage. Decriminalization doesn’t work on its own: The cannabis trade that used to employ poor Blacks, Latinos, indigenous and poor whites in its distribution is now starting to be monopolized by already-rich landowners. That means that wide-scale decriminalization will need to come with economic programs and community projects. To quote investigative journalist Christian Parenti’s remarks on criminal justice reform in his book Lockdown America, what we really need most of all is “less.”

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For my next trick I'm going to pull Michel Foucault out of a hat so he can tell y'all that prisons are like prisons.