1. #6321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Posts like this make me deeply uncomfortable. Lets keep playing like we are behind. I have no interest in losing this thing at the end of the fourth quarter. Points don't matter until the clock runs out.

    I mean great, I would rather be winning then losing... but I am not buying things look as great as people are claiming. I highly doubt Texas is a blue state for another 12 years at least.
    Yeah, if people think it’s a done deal, they will stay home instead of voting.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  2. #6322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    Nope, I can hold contradictory views unlike many sycophants here that make excuses for Biden when he makes racist comments like " If you don't vote for me you ain't black" or any substantive criticism. The second you do you are worse then a a die hard Trump supporter. Attack anyone who descents and make them feel terrible for even dare to question the Biden Bros.
    There's "daring to question", and then there's carrying on spreading talking points from Shaun King and Dave Sirota.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    If Shaun King and David Sirota are too extreme for you then you are proving my point.
    Yeah, this is where a lot of you folks seem to stumble. You can agree with some or all of a person's political beliefs and still think badly of them for other reasons.

    Their 'leftism' isn't too extreme for me because chances are I've been attending Labor meetings since they were in short trousers, what rankles me is the fact that they're grifters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  4. #6324
    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    If Shaun King and David Sirota are too extreme for you then you are proving my point.
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/shaun-...here-it-goes-3

    Not too "extreme", but definitely too shady. Which is why I was never happy that Sanders saddled up with him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Posts like this make me deeply uncomfortable. Lets keep playing like we are behind. I have no interest in losing this thing at the end of the fourth quarter. Points don't matter until the clock runs out.

    I mean great, I would rather be winning then losing... but I am not buying things look as great as people are claiming. I highly doubt Texas is a blue state for another 12 years at least.
    I agree that the best we should feel is cautious optimism - never assuming anything until the state tallies are certified. However, polls are nice to see as a "how is it looking and are we all totally fucked" kind of check-in. So @Milchshake keep 'em coming, but with every poll we see, let's work even harder - because sure as shit the GOP is.

  6. #6326
    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    Again if you are going out of your way to make Shaun King the problem then I question if you really care about systemic issues.
    In that I care about the messenger and the message, yes. I find Shaun King to be a terrible "messenger" here.

    My point was that he's not "too extreme" in the slightest, and there are plenty of reasons to view him with skepticism and not as someone to look to for actually good information.

    I mean, remember that time he tried to dunk on a Hawaiian member of Congress for not supporting M4A? And the Congressman reminded King that he was a co-sponsor of the House bill? Because that's Shaun King's brand of "activism", it's tailored for social media and aimed at "gotcha" bullshit, not aiming to make actually systemic change and address the problems he complains about.

    My link was to provide context for why, showing that the actual efforts of his to make his activist dreams a reality have largely fallen apart, and reportedly due to his own inability to effective manage any of the organizations he creates and effectively use the money he raises.

  7. #6327
    Banned cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It bears repeating that not even Canada put in Canada's healthcare reform overnight. Tommy Douglas worked to build Medicare at the provincial level, in Saskatchewan, over nearly 20 years, building it up step by step. Its expansion nationally went much quicker, but only because we had that clear working example to build from. And even there, it's continued to develop and adjust for the last 50 years or so.

    Refusing the first steps down a path because they don't skip you right to the end of a path is an argument used by someone who has absolutely no fucking interest in ever reaching that destination.
    That's a really good point. I think we saw that path start in Massachusettes with Romney's plan for the state, coming from the GOP, it should have had traction for national implementation. IIRC, that was what the original ACA was modeled after - to get bipartisan support. But of course McConnell (and I'm sure others) had to fuck it up.

    It will be interesting to see if bipartisanship exists after the 2020 election. McConnell has to go for that to be a real thing. Trump, too - obviously.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    In that I care about the messenger and the message, yes. I find Shaun King to be a terrible "messenger" here.

    My point was that he's not "too extreme" in the slightest, and there are plenty of reasons to view him with skepticism and not as someone to look to for actually good information.

    I mean, remember that time he tried to dunk on a Hawaiian member of Congress for not supporting M4A? And the Congressman reminded King that he was a co-sponsor of the House bill? Because that's Shaun King's brand of "activism", it's tailored for social media and aimed at "gotcha" bullshit, not aiming to make actually systemic change and address the problems he complains about.

    My link was to provide context for why, showing that the actual efforts of his to make his activist dreams a reality have largely fallen apart, and reportedly due to his own inability to effective manage any of the organizations he creates and effectively use the money he raises.
    In regards to Shaun King and those like him, it seems that's all some of the radicalized GOP members are capable of doing, in part because of personality faults, but also because that seems to be what it takes to win some of these House seats. Pulling on a previous thread, dramatically increasing the House would have an effect of diluting any one member, and might just make it easier to run on issues instead of gotchas.

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    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I agree that the best we should feel is cautious optimism - never assuming anything until the state tallies are certified. However, polls are nice to see as a "how is it looking and are we all totally fucked" kind of check-in. So @Milchshake keep 'em coming, but with every poll we see, let's work even harder - because sure as shit the GOP is.
    CNN ran this editorial today that pretty much lays out my feelings on the matter.

    Basically, all the logic, evidence, facts and numbers are against Trump. That would matter if people voted rationally, but they don't. Trump is the personification of rage and hurt feelings, and those emotions are at an all time high right now. Think of him like the Sha of Anger. The more anger around him, the stronger he gets. He is basically just a hate elemental.

    Yes, the polls look bad, but there remains a vast number of people that want the racial social order to be preserved, and are quite happy that someone is willing to brutally put down the protestors. These people don't want to say it out loud, because that would make them look racist, but they do want it. There are a huge number of people that will vote for the person that is telling them the things they want to hear, like Corona-virus is going to disappear, and they will all get their jobs back, and they will be able to wave confederate flags at NASCAR again. None of those are true, but they like hearing them anyway.

    Will Trump get the coal miners vote, after failing them for 4 years? Almost certainly. Will farmers who have been devastated by his irrational trade "policy" vote for his reelection? Yeah, I suspect most of them will. They might not say it on a poll now, but they will in November.

    One of the hardest things a rational person can do is recognize the limits of reason, and the power of emotion. Trump is a being of pure emotion, you can't beat him with facts. And Biden doesn't have the emotional punch that Trump does.

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    Wait, are we allowed to talk about BErnie Bros now?

    • Bernie says, "Vote Biden!"
    • Noam Chomsky says, "Vote Biden!"
    • Climate Scientists says, "Vote Biden!"
    • Angela Davis says, "Vote Biden!"


    Any reasonable left-ally has already been persuaded.
    The holdouts are simple private school socialists and their fanbois. No convincing them.
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  10. #6330
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    CNN ran this editorial today that pretty much lays out my feelings on the matter.

    Basically, all the logic, evidence, facts and numbers are against Trump. That would matter if people voted rationally, but they don't. Trump is the personification of rage and hurt feelings, and those emotions are at an all time high right now. Think of him like the Sha of Anger. The more anger around him, the stronger he gets. He is basically just a hate elemental.

    Yes, the polls look bad, but there remains a vast number of people that want the racial social order to be preserved, and are quite happy that someone is willing to brutally put down the protestors. These people don't want to say it out loud, because that would make them look racist, but they do want it. There are a huge number of people that will vote for the person that is telling them the things they want to hear, like Corona-virus is going to disappear, and they will all get their jobs back, and they will be able to wave confederate flags at NASCAR again. None of those are true, but they like hearing them anyway.

    Will Trump get the coal miners vote, after failing them for 4 years? Almost certainly. Will farmers who have been devastated by his irrational trade "policy" vote for his reelection? Yeah, I suspect most of them will. They might not say it on a poll now, but they will in November.

    One of the hardest things a rational person can do is recognize the limits of reason, and the power of emotion. Trump is a being of pure emotion, you can't beat him with facts. And Biden doesn't have the emotional punch that Trump does.
    Something people seem determined to forget is that fascism and hate are like a drug. They provide a "high", and they are addictive. They attract users.

    They are, ideologically speaking, heroin.

    Saying "heroic is bad" doesn't make a heroin addict stop using heroin. It just makes them hide it. It doesn't mean no new users won't turn to heroin; it still provides that high.

    Asking these addicts to not vote for Trump in 2020 is like asking a smack user to go straight. They might smile and nod to you, but they're lying, and they're going to back to injecting that shit into their veins the first chance they get. Not because of some external force, but because they want it.

    We act like "everyone knows" fascism and hate are "bad". And they do. But a lot of people are going to say they have it under control, that they want the high and can handle the negative side effects, that you're not the boss of them, whatever.

    You're never going to debate them into giving up their addiction. They have to want to. And if they don't, the only thing you can do is to cut them out of your life and hope that if/when they OD, they don't hurt anyone but themselves.


  11. #6331
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    One of the hardest things a rational person can do is recognize the limits of reason, and the power of emotion. Trump is a being of pure emotion, you can't beat him with facts. And Biden doesn't have the emotional punch that Trump does.
    Pretty much this. Trump's win flew in the face of all conventional wisdom, logic, and pretty much rationality. Because many of the people who elected him didn't do so because of a rational, considered, informed choice, but as an emotional response.

    And Biden doesn't have the charisma and energy to come close to matching what Trump brings, plus he won't play in the sewage like Trump will which riles up the emotions even higher.

    Trump is a wild card, conventional wisdom and logic doesn't work in a game of blackjack when Trump is laying down a full house and claiming victory to the cheers of his fans that think he's actually won despite sitting on 43.

  12. #6332
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    Hell you have people here who say they care about these issue, but the second you link to a Matt Tabibi and Gleen Greenwald article they start attacking the messenger and ignore the article all together. It's childish, and only goes to insulate themselves from any critical thinking of DEM Good, GOP Bad. When I see both of them as part of the problem.
    The last thread I recall having a Matt Taibi article as the basis the response was to point out how full of shit Taibbi's argument was, and then, to point out that Taibbi has a history of such bullshit, which calls into question why anyone would take his flavor of horseshit seriously.

    They aren't taking issue with Taibbi because he's Taibbi, but because he's lying and propagandizing, and users who link his shit are gullible enough to regularly fall for it.


  13. #6333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    So a bunch of people got onto a forum to hear themselves speak badly about a person who does accountability journalism because he dares to question the varsity of the DNC? Sound like you all made a nice echo chamber for yourself, but that is what this forum has become.
    You're doing the reverse of what you were projecting; you're engaging in blind, unthinking support of Taibbi, regardless of the merit (or lack thereof) of what he writes.

    Edit: Here's a really good breakdown of one of Taibbi's articles and why it's basically just a densely-packed set of misrepresentations and right-wing talking points; https://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/...-lost-its-mind
    Just by way of example.
    Last edited by Endus; 2020-06-19 at 05:40 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    So a bunch of people got onto a forum to hear themselves speak badly about a person who does accountability journalism because he dares to question the varsity of the DNC? Sound like you all made a nice echo chamber for yourself, but that is what this forum has become.

    You say he is lying and propagandizing, but that is so extreme that I call that a bunch of BS. They were both riddiculed for not towing the line of Russiagate and how Trump was a manchurian candidate. Then when proven right, they attacked them again for daring to point it out. Sorry, but there is a properganda and a lot of it comes from Fox, NBC, and CNN. All of which have had far more problem in their reporting then Matt and Gleen.
    This is a deeply disturbing statement from you (or anyone). Could you clarify what you mean?

    Propaganda only comes from Fox - proven liars. You're propagating essentially a lie created by the GOP because they know their news sources are entirely compromised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I agree that the best we should feel is cautious optimism - never assuming anything until the state tallies are certified. However, polls are nice to see as a "how is it looking and are we all totally fucked" kind of check-in. So @Milchshake keep 'em coming, but with every poll we see, let's work even harder - because sure as shit the GOP is.
    That's the thing. The self-proclaimed Resistance on this forum seem mostly disinclined to boost Biden's positives.


    I get it, Biden is mine and everyone's 5th choice. But they seem more interested in covering their own asses or preserving their brand as "Very objective guy".

    Even now they're just copy pasting Chris Cilliza hot takes; "Biden is sleepy", "Biden has no emotion". Take some time out your busy shitposting schedule and watch Joe Biden content first hand. Stop being lazy and relying on twitter or CNN takes.

    Biden has way more emotion that Trump. Trump's is mostly ego driven. Joe's is more empathy driven.

    Thats kinda the key. Too many of the LEft's new online allies struggle with empathy. It's why they spent the first 25 years of their lives being a Ron Paul fan, or soft republican. Maybe they're ashamed they ignored the obvious cruelty of Reagan's GOP for decades. Or a bad case of late blooming emotional development.

    Or they dont want to become overly invested in Biden in the chance he loses the EC.

    But that's just cowardice.
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    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    This is a deeply disturbing statement from you (or anyone). Could you clarify what you mean?

    Propaganda only comes from Fox - proven liars. You're propagating essentially a lie created by the GOP because they know their news sources are entirely compromised.
    uhm propaganda doesn't come from just fox. it can technically come from anywhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    I know of the article, and he Matt isn't wrong. Just look at all the trouble in the New York Times recently. People don't dare speak out against the DNC estblishment members for fear being labeled a Trump supporter. Much of exactly what happens here. There is a mindset within the Establishment media and many have any admitted as such after the fact.

    Just look at some of the articles written about Bernie during the primary both in 2016 and 2020. They derive the most extreme cases from the most mute points.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/o...-campaign.html

    Or how about how a sitting member of congress, sitting military officer, and one of the least represented members in congress is actually a secret Russian Assets. I could go on, but to think there isn't a problem in the Media about those who speak out you must have missed all those people who were fired, let go, or just pushed to the side for daring to question NBC doctrine or the establishment narrative.

    Hell didn't one guy get labeled a racist recently, because he quoted a black person saying he doesn't want the media to only focus Police Brutality, but also need to address on going violence within the black community. This is an exercise in expelling dissenting opinion, and making it all but impossible to have an honest discussion as is it now within this very forum.
    Why did Bernie lose South Carolina, in your opinion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  18. #6338
    Banned cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    uhm propaganda doesn't come from just fox. it can technically come from anywhere.
    And I didn't say it comes from just Fox out of the whole world. I was citing someone else, who listed three news media sources - and of those three, propaganda only comes from Fox. Context is important when citing things.

  19. #6339
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post

    Will Trump get the coal miners vote, after failing them for 4 years? Almost certainly. Will farmers who have been devastated by his irrational trade "policy" vote for his reelection? Yeah, I suspect most of them will. They might not say it on a poll now, but they will in November.

    One of the hardest things a rational person can do is recognize the limits of reason, and the power of emotion. Trump is a being of pure emotion, you can't beat him with facts. And Biden doesn't have the emotional punch that Trump does.
    This is kind of the shifting metric of the electorate Dems haven't really grasped yet. Clinton won on "It's the economy, stupid." And Hillary pushed all sorts of great policies. Policies which would have benefited coal miners.

    But the electorate is far more emotional now than it ever has been. It wants a candidate that connects to them, a candidate who either inspires (like Obama) or stokes the flames of, like Trump. People are voting more and more against their interest by the day. If you put up Republican and Democratic policy positions side by side and asked voters to pick which ones they want, and the candidate with the majority policy wins won the elections, Democrats would win every election. It's what happened with the ACA - people claimed to hate "Obamacare," but then when questioned on the individual policies it enacted, professed how much they loved that idea, and that that's what the government should implement - not realizing Obamacare had done just that.

  20. #6340
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    I know of the article, and he Matt isn't wrong. Just look at all the trouble in the New York Times recently. People don't dare speak out against the DNC estblishment members for fear being labeled a Trump supporter. Much of exactly what happens here. There is a mindset within the Establishment media and many have any admitted as such after the fact.

    The article is you linked is dripping with Supposition.

    Just look at some of the articles written about Bernie during the primary both in 2016 and 2020. They derive the most extreme cases from the most mute points.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/o...-campaign.html

    Or how about how a sitting member of congress, sitting military officer, and one of the least represented members in congress is actually a secret Russian Assets. I could go on, but to think there isn't a problem in the Media about those who speak out you must have missed all those people who were fired, let go, or just pushed to the side for daring to question NBC doctrine or the establishment narrative.

    Hell didn't one guy get labeled a racist recently, because he quoted a black person saying he doesn't want the media to only focus Police Brutality, but also need to address on going violence within the black community. This is an exercise in expelling dissenting opinion, and making it all but impossible to have an honest discussion as is it now within this very forum.
    You're not having a discussion. I have you a lengthy article explaining multiple issues with a particular Taibbi article, and you hand-waved that away to repeat a bunch of the bullshit Taibbi had stated and which was already debunked as nonsense. You're demanding everyone agree with you, and not attacking their points in any way whatsoever.

    You, and Taibbi, seem obsessed with presenting the rantings of random Twitter nobodies as if they're descriptive of every single voice on the left wing. It's a bullshit argument. I know it's a lot easier to attack a straw man you've built, but that doesn't actually make it an argument.


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