1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Because hindsight is 20/20... no blames the public for overwhelming support for the war. Nor is anyone crying for people who had their political careers ruined, due to not supporting the war. We just get to act indignant and pretend it wasn’t fear of retaliation from the public, that lead them to support the war.

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    It is funny, but in reality, the election will come down to voter turn out. If a couple more percent of the public votes, the odds swing to Biden. The fewer people vote, the more likely Trump wins.

    Edit: I know that this part has all, but been removed from the story of 9/11 and US reaction to it... but, the public was blood thirsty. I bet at the hight, if people were set to vote to permit quartering of terrorists in time square, it would have overwhelmingly passed. The shit Trump does now with Taliban and Saudi Arabia, would have him shot out of a cannon by GOP... he would have been strapped to the first bomb dropped on Iraq.
    You're right, of course it boils down to more than that - it was jokey oversimplification. It's one of the more concerning things about this virus - 4 months ago it was a lot more likely that this would be a high voter turnout election. Now who can be sure?

    That said, as much as folks on this forum like to boil voters down to "definitely with us," "the blatant enemy," and concern trolls - there is a population of voters who haven't made their minds up, and they are important to elections. While the senility issue is obviously not the only thing motivating them (hopefully not even a significant one), how each candidate comes across on this subject will have an impact - already is having an impact. In a potentially lower voter turnout election, we need everything we can get.

  2. #662
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    While their life long careers depend on support of these people. I doubt we would know who Biden is, if he didn’t vote to support the war. He would have been black listed, before the tide turned against the war. I don’t think you remember the severity of it, but everyone against the war was branded anti American and ran out of Washington... look at what they did to a mother of dead soldier:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cindy_Sheehan



    He devoted an entire chapter of his book to calling it a mistake:
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/17/polit...ile/index.html



    Depends on the context... most of the stuff I want to return to, is farther back than that. From glass steagal economically to patriot act judicially, it didn’t start in 2015...
    I get that politicians have to make tough decisions. Sometimes those decisions cost you reelection, its in the job description. Sometimes they are unfairly punished for doing the right thing, again it's part of the job. Those who do cave to pressure for votes and an easier tenure are part of 'the problem'. To take a word from Trump but to not condone him, they are part of 'the swamp'.

    So Biden tells me he is willing to stand up to pressure. To do the right thing instead of the easy thing. To fight for what's right. I'm willing to let's one present make up for their past, I'm just not seeing it with Biden. How he he reconciled his missteps in the past with what he is promising to do in the future? Biden has a history of issues that don't start or end with his Iraq War vote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    You don't have a career in politics without either sitting off to the side not contributing, or compromising to move the needle more in your direction than it was before. It's just how politics is.

    Also, 2015 is looking really, really good right now, all things considered. Not to mention the bull market really took off in early-mid 2017, so the multiple economic bubbles about to burst doesn't quite follow for the time frame you're representing.
    The stock market does not pay the landlord. Hiring numbers were going up because people were having to take up 2n& and 3rd jobs to make up costs of living going up while wages stayed down.

    As in 2015 as is today, Americans were overworked, under insured, under paid, while slowly drowning in debt.

    With the current state of the world, people had to be forced to take time off because they could not afford to take take time off. People were still boarding boats and planes in the face of the 21th century plague because they could not afford financially and mentally to cancel their trips. We're not getting $1200 because the bull market has been good to use. People aren't applying for unemployment in droves because the last 8 years of the economy has been good to them.

    Shit was fucked up in 2015 too. Only difference is you can't hide problems in the middle of a pandemic.

  3. #663
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    There is is the same BS i heard in 2010 an onward and being told not to be critical of Obama because it wasn't the time.. It's magically never the time.
    I literally said the time is after this election.

    Because we already had this conversation, in this election, and reached a decision. That decision was that Bernie Sanders and his platform was found wanting.

    This isn't a debate that's being avoided. It's a debate you have already lost. Not forever; once this election is over, by all means, attempt to shift the balance some more, working within the DNC. But for this election, that debate is over. We got our answer. It's Biden. You don't like that answer, but that doesn't change it; it just means you were on the losing side of the discussion and aren't willing to knuckle down and support your party's candidate, because it wasn't who you preferred. So you'd just as soon have Trump.


  4. #664
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    That's actually NOT what I said. But it's adorable that you think that's what I meant. Hit the Wiki for a few minutes, learn the difference between voting for someone and supporting someone, and then come back to the adult table.

    Comparing my posts and analysis to Skroe is a compliment - thank you - the fact that you don't understand that is just more evidence of the deep pool of ignorance you swim within.
    that's exactly what you said. you've spent the last how many pages attacking and berating ANYONE who dares to not vote for biden calling anyone who says they are going to vote third party or sit out complicit in aiding trump or helping him get reelected and in several cases accusing them of being trump supporters. the fact that you can't refute my point without resorting to insults affirms that. i'm done with you and your rambling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thepersona View Post
    Start the healthcare reform with health deputy Sanders would be great though.
    if the dnc didn't want to work with him last time what chance is there of them upsetting their corporate donors and tapping him to run that portion? none.
    Last edited by breadisfunny; 2020-04-17 at 03:47 AM.
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  5. #665
    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    Na, I'll continue to press now and hold those who want to be elected to the top office accountable. Wither it is Trump, Biden, or even if it was Bernie.

    I would prefer Biden, and I might even vote for him. I however, refuse to outwardly support Biden. He has a long history in the senate passing numerous rounds of policies into law that have continue to slide the American middle class and the poor further away from progress in American.

    Fuck Joe Biden, and if that means we get Trump then on to 2024. I fight Trump every step of the way just like I'd expect I'd have to do for Biden. You all don't get it nothing changes regardless if it's Trump or Biden, both have made it crystal clear they don't care about the poor or middle class.
    I don't hink you own your vote for anybody but your idea of ''fuck Biden'' and ''2024'' is even more short sighted.
    Notorious RBG and a few others are reaching a point that they should take it easy, what would the damage be for the united states if you have a few more supreme courts judges that are outright dangerous towards freedom.

  6. #666
    I am Murloc! Noxx79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    Na, I'll continue to press now and hold those who want to be elected to the top office accountable. Wither it is Trump, Biden, or even if it was Bernie.

    I would prefer Biden, and I might even vote for him. I however, refuse to outwardly support Biden. He has a long history in the senate passing numerous rounds of policies into law that have continue to slide the American middle class and the poor further away from progress in American.

    Fuck Joe Biden, and if that means we get Trump then on to 2024. I fight Trump every step of the way just like I'd expect I'd have to do for Biden. You all don't get it nothing changes regardless if it's Trump or Biden, both have made it crystal clear they don't care about the poor or middle class.
    Enjoy a 7-2 hard right Supreme Court then.

  7. #667
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    Na, I'll continue to press now and hold those who want to be elected to the top office accountable. Wither it is Trump, Biden, or even if it was Bernie.

    I would prefer Biden, and I might even vote for him. I however, refuse to outwardly support Biden. He has a long history in the senate passing numerous rounds of policies into law that have continue to slide the American middle class and the poor further away from progress in American.

    Fuck Joe Biden, and if that means we get Trump then on to 2024. I fight Trump every step of the way just like I'd expect I'd have to do for Biden. You all don't get it nothing changes regardless if it's Trump or Biden, both have made it crystal clear they don't care about the poor or middle class.
    I couldn't agree more with the bold. I was pulling for Bernie when I realized Warren was getting nowhere and now we're left with a shit sandwich. I'll vote for Biden because it's either him or literally the worst president in the history of the country, but I'm not happy about it whatsoever. I'm not going to pretend he's not flawed or wouldn't lose to any generic Republican in any other presidential election aside from this one.

    I can't agree with the last paragraph, tho. I'm seeing a lot of people follow the logic of "I'm mad that Sanders lost so fascism it is", and it's pretty disturbing. Biden, for all of his faults, is not as bad as Trump. That's simply not objective reality. Bloomberg is closer to that charge than Biden and the Bloomberg/Trump scenario would have been a nightmare. I'd sooner deal with Biden than either of them.
    Last edited by downnola; 2020-04-17 at 01:14 PM.
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  8. #668
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Well, if it were up to me, I would choose to eat the least amount of shit possible.
    Yeah, instead of just choosing not to eat shit like normal humans would.

    Westerners and their thought processes confuse me sometimes.
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  9. #669
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    Fuck Joe Biden, and if that means we get Trump then on to 2024. I fight Trump every step of the way just like I'd expect I'd have to do for Biden. You all don't get it nothing changes regardless if it's Trump or Biden, both have made it crystal clear they don't care about the poor or middle class.
    Saying nothing changes between Biden and Trump is absolute absurdity. On the most simplest terms, Biden will never claim that you need ID to buy groceries, as a way to argue denying Americans the right to vote. Not just due to ideals, but because Biden was middle class and bought his own groceries. Trump is a fucking oligarch, who at this very moment, is arguing for shutting down congress to appoint judges without oversight.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  10. #670
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Yeah, instead of just choosing not to eat shit like normal humans would.

    Westerners and their thought processes confuse me sometimes.
    That's the thing with an election. Even if you abstain, you've still gotta live here with the choice that gets made.

    So this isn't a case where you get to choose not to eat shit. You're voting on what to get for lunch. And you are going to eat whatever the group picks. The only way to avoid that is to quit and leave; literally leave the country outside of the analogy.

    "Not eating" is the "we have no leader" option; it doesn't actually exist. You're gonna choke down one option or the other. The greasy chicken salad, or the pile of literal dogshit with shards of glass. You might think the greasy chicken salad looks gross, but if you tell me they both look equally bad, I'm just going to point out that you're being ridiculous.


  11. #671
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noxx79 View Post
    Enjoy a 7-2 hard right Supreme Court then.
    So from now on, everybody has to keep voting for whatever conservative the dems will pick? Sounds like a good system that will get people out to vote.

  12. #672
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    Biden wins by being competent.

    A competent president could have commanded the manufacture of ventilators, tests and masks.

    It is that simple.

    We are here because an incompetent Trump simply refused to do what was obviously required.

    Instead we get Trump's grift.

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  13. #673
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxx79 View Post
    Enjoy a 7-2 hard right Supreme Court then.
    There are very good arguments for voting Biden this isn't one of them. The supreme Court is already hard right losing by 1 or 2 makes no difference. We've lost that branch of government and Biden doesn't have the balls to address it.

  14. #674
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandisal View Post
    What was required was nationalized healthcare. The Democrats damned everyone in the country who can't afford healthcare to a horrible painful death regardless of covid-19 by selecting a candidate who wanted the status quo.
    It’s Democrats fault that Trump got elected and ACA is being attacked? WTF?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  15. #675
    Old God AntiFascistVoter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    It’s Democrats fault that Trump got elected and ACA is being attacked? WTF?
    Damn shame Hillary would have retained all of Obama's status-quo-Pandemic-Task-Forces.

    I'm not even sure our Tory friend even knows what the status quo was.
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  16. #676
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    So... I mentioned the ‘wish First Lady happy birthday’ political ad on this site... well... it’s been almost a week and it’s still showing up. How long does this woman’s birthday last? Had to check, but it’s April 26... this isn’t her birthday, its her birthmonth.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  17. #677
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandisal View Post
    Biden is worse than Trump in the following areas:

    1. He and the corporate democrats are definitely worse on the military-industrial complex. Trump has a tiny amount of credibility mainly because of Afghanistan. Maybe he's just a coward or whatever, who cares really, but he did end a war.

    I'd add in 2008 the Democrats were all about ending forever wars, and it is deeply suspicious that they are now criticizing Trump for the same thing.
    Trump and his administration have been hawkish on Iran and Trump vetoed a bill that would have ended U.S. support for Saudi adventures in Yemen. His credibility for "ending" the Afghan war is evaporated by his other actions. He might not be a neocon but he's in favor of advancing U.S. interests (from a purely capitalist standpoint) as they are.

    Biden has been a big proponent of pulling out of Afghanistan and considered Al-Qaeda as the only reason to be there. He's been pretty consistent on that stance.

    2. Trump got rid of TPP which was a horrible exploitative corporate-friendly piece of legislation that exploited foreign workers to undercut American labor. Biden's corporate support comes entirely from the fact he wants to bring this gigantic turd back.

    Against that you have a lot of rhetoric but nothing in the way of substance. Like maybe, if a supreme dies, maybe Biden doesn't nominate a conservative and maybe there is some important piece of legislation subsequently that maybe wouldn't go the right way for the left if there is an exact balance of votes. It is all very vague like that, depends on very contrived and implausible scenarios.
    If there's anything to say about Obama/Biden's role in negotiating the TPP is that it's actually pro-labor. For example, before Trump ripped the proposal in pieces, Obama's team managed to negotiate stronger labor rights in Vietnam as part of the proposal. That would have been a pretty significant win for labor in general.

    Trump is not pro-labor in any capacity. Biden's union record is sketchy to be sure but is certainly more pro-labor than Trump. Consider that Biden supports a higher minimum wage, expanding affordable healthcare (unlike Trump's attempt to dismantle the ACA with no replacement), and proposed a solid plan to strengthen unions.

    I don't see how any of this is empty rhetoric. Could Biden get these things done? Not with Republicans controlling the Sentate but you could say the same thing about Sanders if he won. I just don't see how Biden is anywhere close to Trump.
    Last edited by downnola; 2020-04-17 at 02:59 PM.
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  18. #678
    Banned cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thepersona View Post
    Start the healthcare reform with health deputy Sanders would be great though.
    Agreed. Give him HHS or HUD or essentially any domestic Cabinet post he wants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    that's exactly what you said. you've spent the last how many pages attacking and berating ANYONE who dares to not vote for biden calling anyone who says they are going to vote third party or sit out complicit in aiding trump or helping him get reelected and in several cases accusing them of being trump supporters. the fact that you can't refute my point without resorting to insults affirms that. i'm done with you and your rambling.
    So you can't even read posts now. Interesting. Unfortunately for you, the devil is in the details. You are entirely incorrect in your assessment of my position, but since you're "done with [me] and [my logical and highly persuasive statements], I guess we won't be hearing from you any more. Probably for the best, since you seem entirely incompetent in this area of discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    From a judicial stand point most people don't know the difference between a Kavanaugh vs Merrick Garland. Judicially there is not a big difference between them.
    The deep level of ignorance in the statement of above is not only dangerous, it's hazardous. If you don't know the difference between Kavanaugh and Garland, and their effect on the long term status of our nation, you should just stop posting.

    Here's a little hint: remember Kavanaugh said that women's sanitary use shouldn't be protected.

  19. #679
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    Biden wins by being competent.
    lol the dude is fucking senile.

  20. #680
    I am Murloc! Noxx79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    Yeah we might end up with a court that guts the Voting Rights Act, says corporations are people, and that money is speech for corporations. Oh wait.

    From a judicial stand point most people don't know the difference between a Kavanaugh vs Merrick Garland. Judicially there is not a big difference between them.

    I don't even know who Biden will pick, but given conservative democrats I doubt I'd be any happier.
    Yeah, a 5-4 Supreme Court packed by trump. Now imagine 7-2.

    Or did Biden go back in time and make sure Kavanaugh and Gorsuch got confirmed. And the Obama administration did not appoint Sotomayor and Kagan.

    Magic.

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