Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Edge-]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ity-government
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/21/world...eau/index.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50134640
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ns/4060032002/

Going to put this here, because for some unknown reason people on this board have a hard time understanding facts unless you link them. I do not know what these facts say or the dates on them, I could be wrong, but maybe look for facts online or maybe post a link that shows you are correct. All I have are these links. They are all from October 2019. I chose multiple because I know how you guys are in need of links because you have trouble finding them. These were just the top 4 cursory glance, I may have to delve deeper if you want more, but I probably won't do that for you. Feel free to link me what you find since these are pretty unremarkable. I know you guys have problems with certain sources, I hope the guardian, bbc, cnn and usatoday are left leaning enough to fulfill your desire to have correct facts brought to your attention. If these are insufficient, again feel free to disprove them.

Ah, somehow I completely spaced on that. You're correct. We could have done without the victim bit on your part though, mistakes happen and I'm happy to own up when I post something incorrect, as I just did.

[Endus]

They felt so much shame they re elected a man who multiple times donned black face. "but we're able to see where we did something terrible, admit it was terrible, and try and make it better." What did he learn and how did he makes things better for black people?

He admitted it was racist and insensitive, and he's strived to be better. And the Liberal government's made plenty of moves to redress injustices in its time in office. So I really don't get where you thought this would go.

This was, in fact, a clear example of the difference. And I have to put your confusion down to exactly the blind spot I mentioned. You're entirely focused on power dynamics, and control, and can't grasp what apologies are and how they work.

[cubby]

I'm saying that colonialism is inherently antithetical to the idea of a liberal democracy because European colonialism is inherently illiberal. And the US is nothing if not a post-colonial empire.

This also applies to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, et cetera though to varying degrees. The success to which postcolonial countries have managed to reform into something more humane is directly related to their level of cultural self-examination.

Ah, ok - yeah, that makes sense. And dovetails nicely back to how the United States refuses to acknowledge our past actions/mistakes.

[Felya]

They felt so much shame they re elected a man who multiple times donned black face. "but we're able to see where we did something terrible, admit it was terrible, and try and make it better." What did he learn and how did he makes things better for black people?

In Canada? Could you please elaborate on the race issues of Canada that you believe are being ignored.

Edit:

FYI...

Canada number of slaves: 4200
US number of slaves: 4000000

The Underground Railroad is what lead slaves to Canada, because they abolished it first... without a civil war.

[Elegiac]

In Canada? Could you please elaborate on the race issues of Canada that you believe are being ignored.

The dishonesty is even more blatant when you remember that rather than bitching about Trudeau being in blackface, we could be bitching about the fairly tepid response to Jagmeet Singh getting booted from the floor of parliament for calling a Bloc Quebecois troglodyte out for being racist.

But hey anything to deflect from Trump's sagging numbers eh?

[Felya]

The dishonesty is even more blatant when you remember that rather than bitching about Trudeau being in blackface, we could be bitching about the fairly tepid response to Jagmeet Singh getting booted from the floor of parliament for calling a Bloc Quebecois troglodyte out for being racist.

But hey anything to deflect from Trump's sagging numbers eh?

At least the same excuse works when Trump does something like retweet a supporter screaming “White Power”. No need to deflect on that one... that’s a solid... “Trump has dementia and didn’t see it”... wait no, that’s the script for Biden... one sec... oh, here we go... What he really meant...

Edit: Oh and a note from NFL on the culture war Trump is fighting... Hail to the [TBD]!!!

[Elegiac]

At least the same excuse works when Trump does something like retweet a supporter screaming “White Power”. No need to deflect on that one... that’s a solid... “Trump has dementia and didn’t see it”... wait no, that’s the script for Biden... one sec... oh, here we go... What he really meant...

Edit: Oh and a note from NFL on the culture war Trump is fighting... Hail to the [TBD]!!!

On that note, Angela Davis is voting for Biden.

I'd ask all the tankies what they know that she doesn't, but I'm sure I'll get responses to the effect of "she's drunk the liberal kool-aid"

[Elegiac]

If you're really a progressive I wouldn't know why you'd be gloating about people voting for Biden.
Sure, he might be the lesser evil, but let's be honest here. This is a defeat for progressives in the USA. A humiliation and utter defeat.

I mean sure, if you ignore a) the fact that Biden has the most progressive platform of any Democratic candidate in the general election since like...Carter, honestly. And I mean the general, not the primaries, b) the fact Biden stands a reasonable chance of bringing with him an actual legislative majority, and c) that Trump winning would be a humiliation and utter defeat for everyone and possibly mark the beginning of the end of liberal democracy in America.

And I'm not gloating that she's voting for Biden; I'm pointing out one in a continued trend of progressive figures that are stating the same thing because there continues to be a faction of political arsonists who are caught up in their personal candidate/policy related grievances that they freely aid in grift or repeat misinformation.

This isn't some World Cup for soccer, where you can change your support from the USA to France after the USA got kicked out of the primaries, and you can go on to pretend like you're still 'winning' because you've been cheering for France the past few matches. No, your team lost. You're part of the losers this time around. No matter how much you keep waving that french / Biden flag around for everyone to see.

So sayeth the person who does not live in a FPTP federal Presidential republic.

Is Biden ideal? No. But there stands a chance of things improving under him, the same cannot be said of the alternative. Once again, political arsonists are determined to try and reduce it to a hopeless contest between two equal sides when - no, actually, the people who would be among the most victimized by a Trump administration (Black people) disagree with you.

Any progressive with an honest sense of self should regard Biden's nomination as an utter defeat and question why the powers that be in the USA made it so that the most conservative and most republican of democratic candidates ended up with that nomination. They should question why conservatives keep winning, especially if they're so concerned about a society in which systemic prejudices and traditions keep prevailing. (Or maybe that's all just part of the french-flag waving too?)

No True Scotsman, right? And I mean your notion is also laughable because I and others have spent quite a lot of time in this very thread speculating as to why Biden won out of such a diverse field of candidates with a substantial amount of public energy behind them. The concluded reasons being, ironically enough, systemic prejudices and traditions prevailing - in the form of racism, misogyny, and the Keynesian beauty contest that FPTP voting creates.

Strangely though, that discussion doesn't get mentioned. I wonder if it's because we don't automatically arrive at the conclusions you like - i.e. "the DNC rigged the game from the start", "people were duped into voting against their interests", and "Bernie was objectively the best candidate". Instead you seem to be of the opinion that because we don't accept the conspiracy theory level claim that a cabal of corporate powers that be are orchestrating the entire electoral drama as an act of political theatre that we somehow "aren't acknowledging systemic prejudices" and that makes us not-progressive. Or something.

[RadasNoir]

Point of fact; Canada closed its borders to American tourists and travelers back in March. Essential travel, like shipping, is still allowed through, but American tourists getting caught inside Canada are being fined. https://globalnews.ca/news/7091316/a...-park-tickets/

I'm gonna assume full-on immigration isn't considered "essential" at this time, either. Again, I wouldn't even blame the Canadian government if that was the case. In general, people should be keeping any kind of travel to an absolute minimum.

They felt so much shame they re elected a man who multiple times donned black face. "but we're able to see where we did something terrible, admit it was terrible, and try and make it better." What did he learn and how did he makes things better for black people?

From the sounds of it, the dude apologized and is trying to make up for it, which seems to prove the point Endus was attempting to make. Much as I hate to engage in "whataboutism", I don't see certain leaders in America ever having the guts to even apologize for what they have or haven't done, much less work to make up for it or improve themselves.

If you're really a progressive I wouldn't know why you'd be gloating about people voting for Biden.

Similarly, what does it accomplish to snark at people for supporting Biden, at this point in time? I would have personally preferred Bernie Sanders myself, but there's no getting around the fact that not enough Democrats supported him. In the meantime, Trump represents such an exponential threat to not just progressive polices but the American public at large, that almost any person who opposes him should be seen as a potential ally. We NEED to get him out of office, and on a path to normalcy, before we can possibly consider anything else.

And besides, as has been pointed out here and elsewhere in the politics subforum, if any sort of progressive changes are going to be made, it's likely that they will start at the state and local level, before being challenged at the federal level. Historically, that's how most major chances to American society have started. Sanders being president may have helped facilitate change if those challenges had occurred during his term, but it's unlikely that he would have been able to institute sweeping changes on his own, considering that he would have faced opposition from not just the Republicans in congress, but the more moderate Democrats as well.

[Zaydin]

Any progressive with an honest sense of self should regard Biden's nomination as an utter defeat and question why the powers that be in the USA made it so that the most conservative and most republican of democratic candidates ended up with that nomination. They should question why conservatives keep winning, especially if they're so concerned about a society in which systemic prejudices and traditions keep prevailing. (Or maybe that's all just part of the french-flag waving too?)

Don't pretend like you're better than these 'tankies' you're talking about, darling.

Biden won the primary and Bernie lost because Bernie is a shitty campaigner who did a terrible job selling himself to primary voters. Twice.

There is no grand cabal scheming to keep Bernie out of the presidency. Bernie just sucks at campaigning & selling himself to primary voters.

Simple question: Who is more likely to support proposals made by Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren? Joe Biden or Donald Trump?

[RadasNoir]

But at the same time I don't share the opinion that everything happened as innocently or 'above the table' / honest as many other people would like to believe. I suspect that there were a lot of strings that were getting pulled and money changing hands to try and make sure that Biden would get the nomination. Maybe in a few decades from now we'll have a better view on all this.

I can believe that may have happened back during 2016 with Hillary's campaign, but unless you can point out specific instances that make you think that happened again this year, I so far haven't seen any evidence of that with Biden's campaign. It didn't seem like there was as much of a push for him specifically, until he started to get way more votes during the course of the primary. You and I might disagree with it, but it really does seem like the people of the Democratic Party have made their choice.

And besides, even if what you say is true, that makes it even more likely that change will only come from the ground level, if those at the top are so bound and determined to undercut the efforts of anyone truly progressive. Which also means that perhaps it's best if Sanders continues to fight from where he's at, instead of continually getting shot down while reaching for the top.

[Elegiac]

So let's boil this down to an easy to understand scenario:

1. Influential dude who can make hundreds of thousands of votes go one way or the other by making an endorsement
2. Above dude gets money stuffed down his bank accounts until he's satisfied
3. Dude completely disregards what might be best for the people over which he holds this great influence, because he has been bribed one way or the other
4. Dude says: "Vote Biden"
5. His followers suddenly decide en masse they should all do what he says and vote for Biden.

If you're insinuating that Biden bribed Jim Clyburn for his endorsement just outright say so rather than playing the pronoun game.

[Elegiac]

It feels like a continuous problem. There are plenty of documentaries and movies of how presidential candidates (or even lower offices) in the 20th century used to pump millions of dollars into the bank-accounts of mafiosi union bosses, because these few guys pretty much would decide single-handedly where their few hundred thousand union workers would end up voting. All of this was knee-deep in corruption and mob practices and everything else. It seems to me like this is a problem that hasn't been fixed yet within the USA.

"Feels" being the operative verb. Let's take a look at the facts.

The United States has a problem with money in politics as a default, yes. What does that not mean is that any instance of political favor is automatically one of corruption, it just means corruption is more likely barring other factors.

Said factor here being Bernie did exactly nothing to secure Clyburn's nomination despite knowing Black voters were a weak area of his. The simplest explanation here is that the weaker candidate dropped the ball on campaigning (something that was a known factor as far back as 2016), but because that rankles the people that supported said candidate there arises the need for an alternative explanation - hence, conspiracy with no evidence.

And then there's the fun addition of exactly what is being implied when a bunch of largely white progressives insist that Black voters were voting against their interests by choosing Biden. *sips tea*

[Felya]

And then there's the fun addition of exactly what is being implied when a bunch of largely white progressives insist that Black voters were voting against their interests by choosing Biden. *sips tea*

Don’t forget foreign and lying...

- - - Updated - - -

It feels like a continuous problem. There are plenty of documentaries and movies of how presidential candidates (or even lower offices) in the 20th century used to pump millions of dollars into the bank-accounts of mafiosi union bosses, because these few guys pretty much would decide single-handedly where their few hundred thousand union workers would end up voting. All of this was knee-deep in corruption and mob practices and everything else. It seems to me like this is a problem that hasn't been fixed yet within the USA.

Yes, there is also your history of lying. Your assumption that Biden must be corrupt, is underscored by the fact you are corrupt. If a liar insists this much people not vote for Biden, he must be doing something right. Even petty liars fear him, I can only imagine how big ones like Trump must feel. Afraid Biden’s criminal justice record, means the corruption you propagate will be destroyed?

- - - Updated - - -

Don't pretend like you're better than these 'tankies' you're talking about, darling.

Let’s not pretend that your view of US politics as an 80s Italian gangster film, is based on reality. You said there are plenty of documentaries, link one thing Biden to the mob. Which documentaries are you watching?

[Endus]

So let's boil this down to an easy to understand scenario:

1. Influential dude who can make hundreds of thousands of votes go one way or the other by making an endorsement
2. Above dude gets money stuffed down his bank accounts until he's satisfied
3. Dude completely disregards what might be best for the people over which he holds this great influence, because he has been bribed one way or the other
4. Dude says: "Vote Biden"
5. His followers suddenly decide en masse they should all do what he says and vote for Biden.

My simple question is... Do you think there might be something corrupt or wrong with the above?

What part, exactly? In order;

1> An individual is respected enough by a large group of voters that he can convince them to follow his leadership with their vote. This is literally politics.
2> You did not make this case. You have not demonstrated that he was influenced by money, at all. Nor that his decision was swayed by money, even if it was offered. You cannot presume this without evidence.
3> Begging the question. You've assumed, based on jack and shit, that there was a bribe, and you use that baseless assumption to further argue he couldn't possibly have reached this conclusion without that hypothetical bribe you made up.
4> And? This is literally just his recommendation, his opinion. Literally everyone can do this.
5> Not "en masse". Individually, based on whether they trust his recommendation or not, and based on a whole host of other reasons.

You've made up assertions of a bribe for which you have no evidence, and you've denigrated the intelligence and free thinking of black Americans, which is pretty darned racist. You're bordering on MAGA-hat-wearing territory, here. That should give you a lot of pause.

[Thekri]

If you're insinuating that Biden bribed Jim Clyburn for his endorsement just outright say so rather than playing the pronoun game.

For the record, Jim Clyburn's estimated net worth is $189k. Considering the guy has been a major power player in Presidential politics for 30 years, and has endorsed candidates in every presidential race since 1992, he must really suck at the corruption thing. So "Stuffing money in his bank account until he is satisfied" apparently means bringing your own beer to his fish fry.

If he is refering to some other endorsement, none of which were as influential as Clyburn's, it would help if he would clarify exactly who he is referring too as a mob boss. John Lewis is in about the same position as Clyburn, also being an incredibly influential endorsement, with a net worth that puts him solidly in the middle class. There is absolutely zero evidence money had anything to do with it, since the net worth of both of these politicians is LESS then what any investment firm recommends you have saved by their age.

It isn't like John Lewis couldn't get rich on books and speaking fees if he wanted too, the man marched right next to MLK in Selma, and spoke right after the "I have a Dream Speech". He could easily be a multi-millionaire on a memoir alone. But he isn't, because he doesn't want to be. So implying he sells his endorsement seems a bit out of character.

[Flarelaine]

David Duke, felon and former Grand Wizard of the KKK, maintains his support for Donald Trump (I wonder why?)

However, he's very much fallen out of love with Mike Pence. His new pick? Tucker Carlson.

I know I'm late to the party with this reply, but boy, do I want to see a Duckworth-Carlson VP debate after last week.

[Milchshake]

Interesting theory:
People that listen to podcasts all day, are basically training themselves to follow ideologues.
Explains why a person that earguzzles Joe Rogan cant conceptualize a body politic made up of a diverse coalition.

Joe Biden is basically the anti-ideologue candidate. Which further retards their ability to understand him.

[Thekri]

I know I'm late to the party with this reply, but boy, do I want to see a Duckworth-Carlson VP debate after last week.

Well Duckworth has the rather unique ability to kick his ass while maintaining social distancing, by taking off one of her legs and smacking him with it.

[lockedout]

Kanye West is polling at 2%.