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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    I actually disagree with this a bit, education is not the silver bullet many people believe it to be. When people suggest that education will fix whatever problem, what they are really saying is "We should make everyone agree with me", and suggest education is the way to do that.
    I don't see that link at all - you're making a large mental leap from "provide education to all" to "you must believe what I tell you" - the later is not education, that's indoctrination.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    It doesn't really work out that way though. People will not voluntarily educate their children to a different worldview then they believe, and they will fight efforts to compel them to do so vigorously. In places like Afghanistan, the US had the bright idea we could just educate all the children, and the problem would solve itself in a few decades. Instead, the Taliban bombed schools and ISKP crucified 3rd graders. Afghan parents got the message that if they didn't want their children to be disemboweled, you probably shouldn't send you kids to Western schools. In less dramatic, but an equally effective example, school boards across the south was what created the "Lost Cause" myth to take root in the first place. Organizations like Daughters of the Confederacy prioritized local school board elections, protested any education that opposed their narrative, and got to determine their own history as a result.
    (I would like to keep the conversation just to the United States, but just as an aside, one of the major problems with our work in Afghanistan, is that we never funded education or rebuilding efforts. We put billions into driving the Soviet Union out, and then when it came to infrastructure, we dropped the ball. )

    Your example of the Daughters of the Confederacy is VERY apt, however - because it brings immediately light to the overwhelming problem of educating such a large and diverse country. The current policy is community choice education. So racist fucks like the DoC can push hate and racism (whoops, redundant) and get away with it because "community".

    I hate to position myself here, but the real solution is to do away with "community based education", put together a national program, and force it down their fucking throats. But of course they will just cry fascism/etc, and we're back to square on. In this instance, as many, I don't know how we heal through the hatred and racism, because we have generations still pushing it, and no comprehensive way to counteract it.

    I know this seems to go against my original position, that education is the silver bullet, but it doesn't. It's the difference, and you'll excuse the movie reference, between knowing the path and walking the path. We know the path - we just have no way to navigate it effectively.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    So what exactly are you proposing to do with "Education"? You can't just wave your hands and pretend more money will fix it, because those local school boards are still going to be cramming dogma and bad science down kids throats. It won't solve issues of unmotivated teachers or bored kids. If you try to standardize curriculum, you had better be ready for one hell of a fight, because nobody is going to be willing to give up their ideology by not having it taught. If you go full dystopian in stripping kids away from their parents, and teaching them the federally approved curriculum only, then you might want to look at what happened when Romania did that. And the moment somebody like Trump gets in power, Betsy DeVoss is going to change that curriculum to something you don't like.
    Unmotivated teachers can be solved, to a great extent, but salary and resources. If we paid teachers six figures, and gave them Department of Defense level resources, motivation would increase - at least. And kids will always be bored - that's nothing new. But yeah, how to force the "right" curriculum on those racist fucks, is near impossible. I don't have any kind of solution to it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    The word "education" isn't magical. What exact policies are you talking about to control what and how children are taught?
    Education itself if done "right" is actually magical. Opens the mind, motivates people, etc. However, how to break through that barrier of racism and hate, is beyond me currently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Unmotivated teachers can be solved, to a great extent, but salary and resources. If we paid teachers six figures, and gave them Department of Defense level resources, motivation would increase - at least. And kids will always be bored - that's nothing new. But yeah, how to force the "right" curriculum on those racist fucks, is near impossible. I don't have any kind of solution to it.
    I disagree that paying people more makes them in any way more motivated. And it is entirely possibly to educate children in a way that isn't boring, but you can't really mass produce the effect. Children are people, and people don't like being treated like cattle.

    The "Right" curriculum is the entire crux of my argument here. How do you determine what "Right" is, and who gets to choose it? And how do you make people who don't like whatever is decided on to deal with it? Don't think anyone is going to give up without a fight here, if Betsy DeVoss instituted a standardized national curriculum tomorrow, and it taught kids how Fracking was good for well water and told how Jesus appeared to Robert E. Lee and told him to write the Constitution, you would throw a fit. Which is the whole point, just as you would throw a fit if someone insisted on teaching your child harmful bullshit, MAGAhats will throw a fit if you insist on teaching their children something they believe to be harmful bullshit.

    My parents took me out of school because they didn't want me being taught evolution or "Humanism". This is pretty normal, nobody wants their ideology to die with them, people want to pass on their beliefs to their children, no matter how idiotic those beliefs are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    I disagree that paying people more makes them in any way more motivated. And it is entirely possibly to educate children in a way that isn't boring, but you can't really mass produce the effect. Children are people, and people don't like being treated like cattle.
    That's a good point - pay alone doesn't necessarily automatically motivate. But teachers are typically driven workers, for the most part, they are drawn to the profession. So paying them more, and dramatically increasing their resources, will in turn dramatically motivate a majority of educators - because most want to be there already. I reality that I'm making assumptions here, so give me some leeway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    The "Right" curriculum is the entire crux of my argument here. How do you determine what "Right" is, and who gets to choose it? And how do you make people who don't like whatever is decided on to deal with it? Don't think anyone is going to give up without a fight here, if Betsy DeVoss instituted a standardized national curriculum tomorrow, and it taught kids how Fracking was good for well water and told how Jesus appeared to Robert E. Lee and told him to write the Constitution, you would throw a fit. Which is the whole point, just as you would throw a fit if someone insisted on teaching your child harmful bullshit, MAGAhats will throw a fit if you insist on teaching their children something they believe to be harmful bullshit.
    And IMO you hit the nail on the head. There can in a practical sense be no "right" curriculum, even if it exists, because different communities will never agree - as you're pointing out. So let me pause there - just to make the point clear.

    That being said, in a vacuum, there is a"right" curriculum, and perhaps the only way to do it is to force it down people's throats. But of course, my "right" and even your "right" probably differ, although I'm sure we'd find common ground and agreement. But those DoC racist fucks? Not a chance. And now their kids are fucked, too, because they grow up with hate and racism and "fight the power" bullshit.

    How do we fix that? - is the primary question. Education would do it, but the delivery mechanism is faulty. What do you think?


    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    My parents took me out of school because they didn't want me being taught evolution or "Humanism". This is pretty normal, nobody wants their ideology to die with them, people want to pass on their beliefs to their children, no matter how idiotic those beliefs are.
    Wow - how did you get out from under it? I mean, your path, while probably not fun, is one practical solution to fight against those kinds of anti-education perspectives (I don't mean to sound like I'm disrespecting your parents - just to be clear). And yeah, no one wants their beliefs to die with them - I mean, something like 70%+ of people's current religious beliefs are the same as their parents. No choice there....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    I actually disagree with this a bit, education is not the silver bullet many people believe it to be. When people suggest that education will fix whatever problem, what they are really saying is "We should make everyone agree with me", and suggest education is the way to do that.

    It doesn't really work out that way though. People will not voluntarily educate their children to a different worldview then they believe, and they will fight efforts to compel them to do so vigorously. In places like Afghanistan, the US had the bright idea we could just educate all the children, and the problem would solve itself in a few decades. Instead, the Taliban bombed schools and ISKP crucified 3rd graders. Afghan parents got the message that if they didn't want their children to be disemboweled, you probably shouldn't send you kids to Western schools. In less dramatic, but an equally effective example, school boards across the south was what created the "Lost Cause" myth to take root in the first place. Organizations like Daughters of the Confederacy prioritized local school board elections, protested any education that opposed their narrative, and got to determine their own history as a result.

    So what exactly are you proposing to do with "Education"? You can't just wave your hands and pretend more money will fix it, because those local school boards are still going to be cramming dogma and bad science down kids throats. It won't solve issues of unmotivated teachers or bored kids. If you try to standardize curriculum, you had better be ready for one hell of a fight, because nobody is going to be willing to give up their ideology by not having it taught. If you go full dystopian in stripping kids away from their parents, and teaching them the federally approved curriculum only, then you might want to look at what happened when Romania did that. And the moment somebody like Trump gets in power, Betsy DeVoss is going to change that curriculum to something you don't like.

    The word "education" isn't magical. What exact policies are you talking about to control what and how children are taught?
    I was speaking of learning kids how to absorb and filter information correctly, enhance their capability for critical thinking and teach them how to research information for themselves on the web.

    That's what i refer to when i mean more education, as our education regardless of what western nation we take is lagging behind raising kids in an era almost completely digital and being fully bombarded by information true and false all the time.

    From my understanding more money would fix quite a bit in the US considering how much the quality has fallen and how schools actually try to cut costs on educators, this seem to be also extending into college's. I mean if we are speaking of the US, i don't find it normal coming from Europe that a college degree how subpar it might be is mandatory to get a decent job, where our high schoolers are quite prepared for the job market if they didn't decide to take a direction that leads them into university.

    But yes i find it absurd that the US does not have proper federal oversight and that local governments can dictate what is taught, such power should never be given to local hands as they lack the education themselves and professionalism to look at what's best for those in schools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Why does he keep pardoning war criminals, corrupt rich dudes, film makers that violated campaign finance law, and law enforcement agents that violated peoples Civil Rights, then?

    Why is he ordering US citizens be disappeared by federal authorities in Portland?

    Why is he, his administration, and multiple agency heads defending against multiple lawsuits alleging wrongdoing, and why are heads like DeVoss continually defying legal court orders?

    I mean, for a "Law & Order" guy, he's done little to nothing to actually earn that title. And I'm genuinely not sure what would make anyone think otherwise.

    Why do you believe this?
    “Conservatism is based upon a single principle: that there must be in groups the law protects but does not bind, and out groups the law binds but does not protect.”

    That is what they mean by law and order - the desire for an ethnostate with a heavy helping of socio-political caste.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    “Conservatism is based upon a single principle: that there must be in groups the law protects but does not bind, and out groups the law binds but does not protect.”

    That is what they mean by law and order - the desire for an ethnostate with a heavy helping of socio-political caste.
    Where did you get that quote - that is definitively and frighteningly spot on regarding the conservative movement in the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Traditionally, vice presidents are people that have proven to be able to win a federal election so that if they eventually ran for President they wouldn't be trying to do it for the first time. That qualification means it is Harris or Demmings. But Harris won a federal election in California, which is pretty worthless since California is so far left. Demmings won a federal election in Florida which is a swing state. Demmings would be my bet to be veep but she's an ex-cop. Then again, Harris is basically a cop and Susan Rice is basically a cop too.

    I will place my on Keisha Bottoms. Maybe being a mayor during covid has more pull then winning a federal election. Bottoms was on the Biden train super early. She's not a cop.
    Expressed my admiration and concerns for Demmings earlier. She is 'cop' like Harris and Rice except she was an actual cop who actively fought to change the institution. She won in an extremely liberal area of Florida, one that's several notches to the left of the rest of the state, even some of the left leaning areas. Republicans in the state do not like her or how blue her district is.

    Remember that Florida is technically red now and Trump's 'home' state. I fear that when it comes to winning Florida she'd be an excuse for Florida Republicans to vote along party lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Where did you get that quote - that is definitively and frighteningly spot on regarding the conservative movement in the United States.
    It’s a reply to one of Frank Wilhoit’s blog posts, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    It’s a reply to one of Frank Wilhoit’s blog posts, lol.
    I haven't seen something so succinct perfectly embody the insanity of the GOP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Well, I've long posted that Harris probably has this locked. As long as she avoids anything crazy...

    Much as I like Warren I can't imagine that Biden wants any more of a difficulty with that part of Congress. The House is likely locked blue. But the Senate...I can see a gain of blue of two seats. I'm skeptical of any more gains there. And Democrats aren't always united there, and does at time rely on a few Republican defections.
    But someone must be doing the math in the background and Warren cannot lose her Senate seat - it will be a red appointment from the GOP Governor, so she can't be the VP pick. It could cost us the Senate.
    Last edited by cubby; 2020-07-21 at 10:13 PM.

  10. #7250
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Expressed my admiration and concerns for Demmings earlier. She is 'cop' like Harris and Rice except she was an actual cop who actively fought to change the institution. She won in an extremely liberal area of Florida, one that's several notches to the left of the rest of the state, even some of the left leaning areas. Republicans in the state do not like her or how blue her district is.

    Remember that Florida is technically red now and Trump's 'home' state. I fear that when it comes to winning Florida she'd be an excuse for Florida Republicans to vote along party lines.
    Big prob however...not well known at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I haven't seen something so succinct perfectly embody the insanity of the GOP.
    Nor I, but apparently the hard hitting political commentary of the last decades has been happening in comments sections.

    It's not just the GOP either; I honestly think it is one of the most succinct ways of boiling down the right wing's view of hierarchy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Big prob however...not well known at all.
    "I don't know her" doesn't mean "not well known", dude. We went through this shit with people claiming that because they hadn't heard of Stacy Abrams she wasn't a prominent figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Expressed my admiration and concerns for Demmings earlier. She is 'cop' like Harris and Rice except she was an actual cop who actively fought to change the institution. She won in an extremely liberal area of Florida, one that's several notches to the left of the rest of the state, even some of the left leaning areas. Republicans in the state do not like her or how blue her district is.

    Remember that Florida is technically red now and Trump's 'home' state. I fear that when it comes to winning Florida she'd be an excuse for Florida Republicans to vote along party lines.
    I'm still wandering in the backfield wondering why Abrams is off the list - maybe something came up during her vetting process.

    Interesting points re Demmings - that might be problematic in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I'm still wandering in the backfield wondering why Abrams is off the list - maybe something came up during her vetting process.

    Interesting points re Demmings - that might be problematic in the end.
    If you are a strategists I think Abrams has the same problems as Beto. Both lost their elections to some partisan nonsense but at the same time had some underlying issues that also got in the way. They immediately throw their name in the ring for higher office when they couldn't secure local favor. They are problematic candidates among a pool of people who are paths for lesser resistance to the White House.

    Abrams is a strong voice and has done much for voter involvement after her defeat. She also went around calling herself the rightful heir to Georgia and not admitting defeat. Which she is absolutely right about...except politics is about a bunch of bullshit where right doesn't always win. If things were about being right she would be the governor now. Instead the game is rigged and you have to play by a certain set of rules to come out on top. From a nasty political perspective, she violated some optical rules in an unfair game. Now her ops get to paint as as the loud woman of color who couldn't accept defeat. I'm going to say. A strong black woman like Abrams scares the fuck out of white conservatives more so than Clinton as a strong white woman. Abrams' press tour after her defeat gives them an excuse to not like her while covering up their real fears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I can't believe Warren is being considered at all. I like Warren, but having two septuagenarians on the same ticket is insane. Not to mention she needs to keep that Senate seat. I see no upsides to Warren as VP, as much as I respect her as a legislator.

  16. #7256
    Yeah...Warren needs to stay put.
    She needs to publicly take herself out of the running.

  17. #7257
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    No surprise at all, folks are going with name recognition and of course some of the top choices will be former primary candidates.

    That being said, they're both still poor picks. Harris is more a liability than an asset on the ticket (she's better for other cabinet positions as she's a safe Senate seat), and Warren fails to bring racial or age diversity to the ticket, while also potentially losing a Senate seat until it's up for election again.

    It is interesting seeing Susan Rice up there, she's got some name recognition but isn't exactly the most visible person around, especially since the Obama administration ended. It's interesting to see Rice leading with independent voters, that demographic may factor into the Biden camp's decision making process. And it's hardly as if she lacks the chops and experience for the role.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Tammy Duckworth is at 5%, theres still a chance!

    I swear people are sleeping on Duckworth. She ticks all the right boxes while being a strong politician.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Tammy Duckworth is at 5%, theres still a chance!

    I swear people are sleeping on Duckworth. She ticks all the right boxes while being a strong politician.
    Honestly Tammy would be a strong pick it would be silly not to give her strong consideration. The only issue may be like warren where if they leave their seat does a gop gov get to pick their replacement for any period of time.

  20. #7260
    Quote Originally Posted by kaid View Post
    Honestly Tammy would be a strong pick it would be silly not to give her strong consideration. The only issue may be like warren where if they leave their seat does a gop gov get to pick their replacement for any period of time.
    Illinois has a Democrat governor (J.B. Pritzker), so we wouldn't have to worry about that.
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