Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Endus]

The only childish thing is trying to shame people into voting one way or another. Maybe if you guys left this centrist democratic bubble once in a while you would understand that.

I'm a liberal market socialist who's somewhat further left, politically, than the NDP is here in Canada. The idea that I'm somehow a "centrist Democrat" is fucking hysterical.

Even Bernie Sanders is way more conservative and centrist than I'd be truly happy with, dude. He's barely center-left.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with refusing to vote if you have your own reasons not to.

No party is entitled to any person's vote. They have to earn the votes and be worthy of those votes.

If they're not: tough luck, next time they can try better to appeal to those votes they didn't get.

It's as simple as that.

Again, democracy is not about getting what you want. You get to apply a little pressure, in a direction; you do not get to pick the end results a la carte. So, when presented with the options, you pick the one that's closest to the direction you want, even if their goals fall way short of what you want to reach.

Over multiple elections, with repeated successes, it will creep further towards that goal.

That's how democracy works. By demanding "my way or the highway", all you're doing is removing your voice from the discussion and refusing to use your vote to apply pressure to help push.

The bus is stuck in the mud. It's not gonna drop you off at home, but it'll get you closer than you are now. So get out and help push. You're not gonna get any closer by standing there whining that the bus doesn't drop you off at your front door.

None of this is "shaming". It isn't about any party being "entitled" to your vote. It's about you abrogating your civic rights to sulk because democracy is collective in nature. Which is sort of in the name.

[starlord]

This latest attack on Biden, and mostly Harris, seems to be pretty good news for Biden/Harris.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/bo...more_headlines

Title: Billionaire investor predicts a Trump victory, says Kamala Harris is ‘a little too charismatic’

Excerpts:



Basically, he replaced racist themes with sexist ones. He is laying the groundwork for republican attacks on Harris due to her being a strong competent female, which I believe will massively backfire.

yea i don't think the strat that they used against hillary will work against her in the current climate. trump's been poking, smoking out, and playing baseball with the hornets nest of women & minority voters.

[Endus]

What an absolute terrible analogy. Rosa Parks was on a bus once. I guess she should have just rode along with everyone else.

Rosa Parks is a great example. She just wanted to ride the bus, equal with everyone else. In this analogy, that's analogous to black voters wanting equal say with white voters. Your issue with that is, what, exactly?

Refusing to vote isn't a demand for change. It's removing your voice for change from the system entirely. It's a choice to render yourself and your opinions politically irrelevant. It's self-defeating.

Because here's the thing; Parks didn't get off the bus. She stayed on the bus, and insisted on her right to use that bus.

[Nurasu]

Rosa Parks is a great example. She just wanted to ride the bus, equal with everyone else. In this analogy, that's analogous to black voters wanting equal say with white voters. Your issue with that is, what, exactly?

Refusing to vote isn't a demand for change. It's removing your voice for change from the system entirely. It's a choice to render yourself and your opinions politically irrelevant. It's self-defeating.

In his example, she would have gotten off the bus. Maybe they would have changed their ways from missing out on that fare lol

[Thepersona]

I would not put too much value in his predictions.

In 2019 - housing market will crash. LOL! Dollar would weaken. Another LOL! Don't invest in Europe market. EZU up almost 30%.

I have a question: Why people still believe in them, when they consistently fail to come up with true predicctions?

[Benggaul]

There is always an excuse for Obama. Just like there was for both Clintons, and even for Biden. Yet you all act shocked when Trump voters swat aside your moral arguments about Trump. Yet with Stormy Daniels or Tara Reid got a very similar defense from their respective supporters.

Everyone in 2008 and 2004 was super upset about Bush's Iraq war, but the people who actually voted in favor of that war? Zero consequence, and looking like might be our next conservative president. "It was a mistake. No big deal."

There's always someone willing to ignore context when it doesn't jive with their bullshit "zomg both sides!" narrative. Sorry your candidate lost. Mine did too. I refuse to level stupid accusations because of it, though. I've largely ignored your exchanges with the other more combative posters here because I'm not here to bully people into voting for Biden, but making nonsense comparisons doesn't help anyone's cause.

As far as the whole Tara Reade (NOT Tara Reid, who is an actress--c'mon, get the facts right if you want to argue with them) fiasco, I absolutely believe that she felt uncomfortable with Biden. I believe all of the women who claim they felt uncomfortable with some of the things Biden did. That's also, by the way, what Harris said. Not "I believe Biden raped her" which is what several on here keep trying to push. However, as much as I believe most of the accusations, I just don't find her story about the alleged assault credible, nor do the women in my life who have suffered actual assaults. Her story seems to have quite a few holes and the person she had to corroborate it--a neighbor of hers, I believe, though I could be mistaken--had to be reminded of the story, by Tara Reade herself, before she suddenly "remembered" anything about it.

If it's true then of course Biden should be prosecuted and sentenced. I just find the story fairly flimsy and very conveniently timed. Trump, by contrast, has had sexual assault allegations leveled at him for decades straight--not just in his runup for the campaigns.

[starlord]

That is true.

And not voting is a form of putting pressure into the direction you want.

no it isn't, because the outcome is controlled by people who do vote.
do they not have voting in your country?

[Endus]

That is true.

And not voting is a form of putting pressure into the direction you want.

It applies zero pressure. How on Earth do you think you're applying any pressure by not expressing your opinion? It's like trying to help pick a restaurant to order lunch from by not saying where you'd prefer to get lunch from. It does not make sense.

I'm not even trying to push any particular candidate. Just the basic premises of democratic systems.

Even voting third party, as pointless as it may generally be, is way more responslble a stance than not voting. Refusing to vote is a statement that you just don't care enough to bother, not pressure applied in any direction.

[Thepersona]

That is true.

And not voting is a form of putting pressure into the direction you want.

Yeah, no. Not voting means you dont get a say in tje outcome, and more often than not, the candidate you desire less is often electef

[Endus]

Yeah, no. Not voting means you dont get a say in tje outcome, and more often than not, the candidate you desire less is often electef

Not even that; not voting is that you're offered a say in the outcome, and you say "meh, do whatever, I don't care". You were offered a chance to say something, and declined the opportunity.

[Ivanstone]

None of this is "shaming". It isn't about any party being "entitled" to your vote. It's about you abrogating your civic rights to sulk because democracy is collective in nature. Which is sort of in the name.

There's also more to the election than just the presidency. AOC, Ilahn Omar and Rashisa Tlaib all won their primaries with additional progressive candidates coming. You gotta hit them on all fronts. Biden with a more progressive congress is a shit tonne better than Trump with almost any congress.

[Edge-]

And not voting is a form of putting pressure into the direction you want.

It most absolutely not. Who is that message directed at, Democrats? How are they gonna know what you want? Do you want a more conservative centrist Democrat? Do you want a leftist progressive? Do you want a trans, multi-racial candidate? Do you want a celebrity candidate?

[beanman12345]

The only childish thing is trying to shame people into voting one way or another. Maybe if you guys left this centrist democratic bubble once in a while you would understand that.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with refusing to vote if you have your own reasons not to.

No party is entitled to any person's vote. They have to earn the votes and be worthy of those votes.

If they're not: tough luck, next time they can try better to appeal to those votes they didn't get.

It's as simple as that.

Of course you are defending these people who don't want to vote, you forever on record as wanting trump to win. Now why is it that trump supporters like you and theo want the willfully ignorant to remain willfully ignorant and not vote. what could that reason be? Maybe cause it's a winning republican strategy to make sure people don't vote?

[Nurasu]

You can feel whatever the fuck you want. I'm not here to prove myself to anyone.

I said "these guys" because you already said you'd be holding your nose for Biden, if I'm not mistaken. Yikes.

- - - Updated - - -

I disagree.

Let's put it differently, which puts the most pressure on a party for them to change or re-align their goals and policies:
A. Voting for them?
-or-
B. Not voting for them?

The answer is obviously B.


It is a very american thing to claim that "not voting" is somehow not part of the political process or in itself not a form of expressing your opinion. I can only imagine there are very wealthy agenda pushers behind spreading this fallacy as some sort of truth...è

C. Voting for your preferred candidate in their primaries. They don't know or care what you want if you don't vote at all.

[Benggaul]

Not even that; not voting is that you're offered a say in the outcome, and you say "meh, do whatever, I don't care". You were offered a chance to say something, and declined the opportunity.

Won't stop them from coming back after the election to talk about how shit everything is and if only everyone had listened to them and blah, blah, blah...

[Edge-]

Let's put it differently, which puts the most pressure on a party for them to change or re-align their goals and policies:
A. Voting for them?
-or-
B. Not voting for them?

The answer is obviously B.

Change or re-align how? How are they going to know why you chose not to vote? Are they supposed to divine that it's a protest vote and not because you were too lazy to find your mail-in ballot or show up to a polling place? Are they supposed to read the tea leaves to know what it is you want instead of the candidate they had? Do you want someone more conservative? Someone more progressive? A female frontrunner? Trans representation?

I mean, you're describing the literal point of the primaries. And unfortunately for your more progressive camp, Democrats didn't choose Sanders. That was your chance to make your voice heard, and Sanders supporters either didn't show the fuck up or didn't have the numbers they hoped. And now you want to take your toys home because you're mad you didn't get your way.

Edit: Fuck, the primary has been over for like 6 months and we're still having this conversation about how electoral politics works with "progressives". The Squad can figure it out for some reason, though.

[Nurasu]

Won't stop them from coming back after the election to talk about how shit everything is and if only everyone had listened to them and blah, blah, blah...

At least they'll keep the privilege of being able to try again in another election rather than allowing the option to be removed by our descent into fascism. I like how they're posting quotes to me about deterring the nazis while participating in the reelection of one.

[starlord]

I disagree.

Let's put it differently, which puts the most pressure on a party for them to change or re-align their goals and policies:
A. Voting for them?
-or-
B. Not voting for them?

The answer is obviously B.


It is a very american thing to claim that "not voting" is somehow not part of the political process or in itself not a form of expressing your opinion. I can only imagine there are very wealthy agenda pushers behind spreading this fallacy as some sort of truth...

they change their policies to appeal to people who do vote, not people who don't.

[wunksta]

I disagree.

Let's put it differently, which puts the most pressure on a party for them to change or re-align their goals and policies:
A. Voting for them?
-or-
B. Not voting for them?

The answer is obviously B.


It is a very american thing to claim that "not voting" is somehow not part of the political process or in itself not a form of expressing your opinion. I can only imagine there are very wealthy agenda pushers behind spreading this fallacy as some sort of truth...

Almost half of America already doesn't vote. What pressure are they applying?

[Endus]

I disagree.

Let's put it differently, which puts the most pressure on a party for them to change or re-align their goals and policies:
A. Voting for them?
-or-
B. Not voting for them?

The answer is obviously B.

B provides absolutely no pressure whatsoever. You're not part of their voting base; why would they care about your opinion about anything? The only thing that gives you any seat at their table, specifically, is Option A. And more accurately, getting involved outside of just voting.

Except you all are saying Sit Down, Shut Up, and don't say a word right now.

Literally not what I've been saying. I have literally been arguing the opposite. Are you even bothering to read my posts, or are you kneejerking over some fantasy you made up in your head?

- - - Updated - - -

You act as if saying: "Meh, do whatever I don't care," is somehow an unusual or weird response when the choice offered is between a shit sandwich or a turd pistolet.

"Both sides are equally bad" is a garbage argument that fails basically any objective analysis.