Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Kaleredar]

And I argue you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. Basically saying it isn't real but its actually good.

On the other hand journalists, Leftists, even Liberals have acknowledged this is something specific. Such as Ron Jonson, or Ben Burgis, neither of which are right wing figures. So I guess I'm going to pull rank and say I trust that if it truly didn't exist these people, Left Wing people mind you, wouldn't have written / are writing books about the phenomena that most Americans mind you think does exist and is bad.

Trump is essentially counting on Liberals responding as you do. Basically insulting the intelligence of people raising a concern, denying everything and then suggesting that whatever is going on is a good thing. I am suggesting that maybe this reaction, given its the one he clearly is expecting and wants, probably is gunna help him out.

Trump responded to peaceful protestors by having them violently suppressed.

I care far more about the actions of the president of the United States than some people on tumblr voicing their negative opinions about the comments of other random internet commentators whose opinions you seem to ascribe some form of importance to and whose rebuking you seem to thing is some affront to liberty. Instead of... you know, the actual textbook demonstration of authoritarian suppression of free speech your guy conducted. Not on the internet., but in real life.

But somehow you feel the "platform" for internet commentators is far more important. So much more important that you seem to even forget that the tear gassing of peaceful protestors is a thing that actually happened only a few months ago.


While the president of the United States is using actual violence to suppress actual first amendment rights, I could absolutely give zero fucks as to how the opinions of people on the internet affect the online talking heads whose hill you're trying to die on.

[PhaelixWW]

Not true, if you had bothered to open up the tweet I linked, that is addressed right below it:

In August 2016, 41% of voters identified as Republican / GOP-leaners and 48% identified as Democrats / Dem-leaners.

In August 2020, 42% of voters identify as Republicans / GOP-leaners 48% of voters identiy as Democrats / Dem-leaners.

No, see, this is why you shouldn't take all your news from twitter, and definitely not at face value.

First, for the CBS poll, maybe he should have actually linked his source, and then cut that screenshot a little lower...




That's 42% Democrat, 30% Republican, and 27% Independent. I think it's fair to suppose that a decent chunk of those GOP-leaning Independents might have called themselves Republicans four years ago.

Also, he incorrectly read the Gallup poll results. The numbers he quoted was only for Independents, not everyone. But he definitely cherry-picked the right time-frame for 2016. The previous iteration showed a 43/43 split, and the following iteration showed a 44/45.

I don't really think his conclusions, or yours, are worth very much.

[Theodarzna]

Trump responded to peaceful protestors by having them violently suppressed.

I care far more about the actions of the president of the United States than some people on tumblr voicing their negative opinions about the comments of other random internet commentators whose opinions you seem to ascribe some form of importance to and whose rebuking you seem to thing is some affront to liberty. Instead of... you know, the actual textbook demonstration of authoritarian suppression of free speech your guy conducted. Not on the internet., but in real life.

But somehow you feel the "platform" for internet commentators is far more important. So much more important that you seem to even forget that the tear gassing of peaceful protestors is a thing that actually happened only a few months ago.


While the president of the United States is using actual violence to suppress actual first amendment rights, I could absolutely give zero fucks as to how the opinions of people on the internet affect the online talking heads whose hill you're trying to die on.

It matters mostly because it is obviously a topic of concern, as my earlier links showed, a not insignificant amount of the electorate cares about this, and the president has even made it a part of his campaign.

Also please calm down, I'm not weighing what is or isn't important, I am telling you what is going on. Clearly some people dislike even second of negative news or even mild introspection.

[eschatological]

The findings are more consistent with what the critics of cancel culture are saying. The line of unacceptability is constantly, rapidly and unpredictably shifting; sanctions for crossing it are applied arbitrarily but sometimes harshly.

How is the line "constantly shifting"? What have left-leaning people supposedly tried to cancel? I can think of three categories: racists (including blackface)/misogynists and serial harassers (including comedians who masturbate unprovoked in front of female colleagues)/homophobic and transphobic assholes.

Tell me, should these people NOT be criticized, to protect their fee fees? Cause fuck that. Those are things which are no longer acceptable (they were never acceptable, just no one felt empowered enough to say shit about it).

I'm trying to think of anyone supposedly canceled for anything outside of those three categories, and can't come up with jack shit.

Meanwhile, the right literally tries to cancel culture. Like, any culture. Brown culture, black culture, Islamic culture, Jewish culture, music that's too violent or too anti-Christian, video games, books, which they were all about banning for a long time, art because it doesn't conform to "acceptable" standards, and so on, and so forth.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm in the streets fighting back against Nazis. What are you doing? Portland is my hometown, and I've been fighting back against Nazis and skinheads for decades.

You never answered my question. See below:

I have a question:

Do you think burning buildings, beating them with skateboards, culminating with last night's shooting and killing of a Trump supporter actually helps fight fascism in the large scale?

You talk so much about the right's ability to propagandize, but then the Red Rose brigade gives them the footage to do so verrrrrrrrry easily. Dem voters overwhelmingly picked Biden to be the nominee so they could fight that narrative, because every time Trump says Biden or Kamala are radical leftists, reasonable people are like...."no? No they're not!"

And you and I know that the violence/arson of the rioters aren't anywhere near the majority, or even a significant number, of protesters, nor indicative of the protesters in general. But if y'all are so savvy at social media, you should know that the bright orange flames of things burning, or the knocking down of statues, or the literal videos circulating of actual real people dying during clashes, are the only things that are gonna get eyes on them, not the protesters singing kumbaya or whatever. The anti-fascist protester last night caught on video proclaiming to the crowd, "I won't be sad that a Nazi got killed!" is the thing average people will see, because it's a 10s video that can be spammed in ads and on Facebook. And that'll be what sticks with people.

So again, do you think these protests are helping fight fascism?

[jdbond]

I am very anti Trump but I don't care for Sleepy Joe either. Awful candidates on both sides.

[Flower Milk]

How is the line "constantly shifting"? What have left-leaning people supposedly tried to cancel? I can think of three categories: racists (including blackface)/misogynists and serial harassers (including comedians who masturbate unprovoked in front of female colleagues)/homophobic and transphobic assholes.

Tell me, should these people NOT be criticized, to protect their fee fees? Cause fuck that. Those are things which are no longer acceptable (they were never acceptable, just no one felt empowered enough to say shit about it).

I'm trying to think of anyone supposedly canceled for anything outside of those three categories, and can't come up with jack shit.

Meanwhile, the right literally tries to cancel culture. Like, any culture. Brown culture, black culture, Islamic culture, Jewish culture, music that's too violent or too anti-Christian, video games, books, which they were all about banning for a long time, art because it doesn't conform to "acceptable" standards, and so on, and so forth.

- - - Updated - - -



You never answered my question. See below:

You need to read up on the history of neo-Nazis in Oregon, because they've been here a long time and people have been fighting back against them for a long time because the police refuse to protect us from them.

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/...eads_beat.html

Seraw, a 28-year-old Ethiopian immigrant, was surrounded and bludgeoned to death with a baseball bat by three skinheads on a Southeast Portland street on Nov. 13, 1988.

Then last year, Harmon Johnson again saw shock among white people and less surprise from minority communities when police say Jeremy Christian fatally stabbed two men in the neck and nearly killed a third on a MAX train. The men intervened as Christian directed a racist and xenophobic tirade at two African American teens, witnesses said.

“People say, ‘Oh my gosh. How could this happen in Portland -- not loving, progressive Portland,’” Harmon Johnson said. “And (we) say … ‘What do you mean how can this happen in Portland?’ We know this can happen because white supremacists are allowed to roam free in ways that are entirely inappropriate.”

Harmon Johnson cited as an example Portland police not arresting Christian the night before the attack, when an African American woman said he delivered a hate-filled rant against blacks, Jews and Muslims, then threatened to kill her and threw a Gatorade-filled plastic bottle at her face. Police responded to the Rose Quarter MAX station but let Christian go. Later, police issued a statement disagreeing with the woman's account that she'd identified Christian as her attacker.

Police said she hadn't. Harmon Johnson also pointed to the Portland Police Bureau's two-decades-old practice of keeping a list of suspected gang members and affiliates. An Oregonian/OregonLive investigation in 2016 found 81 percent of the 359 people on the list were racial or ethnic minorities. The bureau eliminated the list last year under public criticism, but an auditor later found police were keeping a second list of suspected gang members.

If the police are the neo-Nazis and are working with them, what do you think we should do? Just continue letting them murder people in the streets and do nothing to fight back?

So you claim you are protesting them and fighting in the streets, but you won't vote them out of office. Yeah I call bullshit.

Oregon is a Democrat controlled state, Portland is run by a Democratic mayor who also serves as police commissioner. What have any of them done to stop the Nazis killing people in the streets? Why should I vote for Democrats, especially the guy who wrote the 1994 Crime Bill, when for decades they've done nothing to stop the neo-Nazis and police from murdering innocent people in the streets? How will voting for them stop fascists from killing people in the streets when it hasn't before?

[nonameelf]

You've completely ignored the core substance of the general public and their feelings.

Repeating:
The findings are more consistent with what the critics of cancel culture are saying. The line of unacceptability is constantly, rapidly and unpredictably shifting; sanctions for crossing it are applied arbitrarily but sometimes harshly.

The issue isn't that it changes, but that it changes in unpredictable, rapid, and constantly changing ways, and that the punishments are arbitrary and harsh in way that are hard to predict.

And again, you have fit the rubric perfectly. You state its a good thing. Well you are against public perception and also grossly mischaracterizing the public's perception.

"Cancel culture" is literally just boycotting. That's it. Which is, last I checked, one of the main methods by which individuals can influence businesses in capitalism. If you have an issue with organized boycotts then you have an issue with capitalism.

Right wing does boycotts all the damn time. I remember them trying to boycott Starbucks over Christmas cups. Hell, they're trying to do a Trump lead boycott of Goodyear tires right now.

Literally the only reason right wingers are screeching about "cancel culture" is because their own boycotts suck and don't accomplish anything.

[Ursus]

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5...ctivists-words

Steve Scalise, the number two Republican in the House, shared a doctored video on Twitter of activist Ady Barkan (who suffers from ALS, you might remember him speaking with a computerized voice at the DNC) to make it look like Biden was responding to something that was never said. Twitter flagged the tweet as "manipulated media", and Scalise later deleted the tweet.

This is disgusting and disturbing on so many levels. Barkan posted a tweet to Scalise:

.@SteveScalise,

These are not my words.

I have lost my ability to speak, but not my agency or my thoughts.

You and your team have doctored my words for your own political gain.

Please remove this video immediately. You owe the entire disability community an apology. https://t.co/N6G5RgMXlO

While the video has been removed, something tells me he's going to be waiting a long, long time for that apology.

[beanman12345]

You need to read up on the history of neo-Nazis in Oregon, because they've been here a long time and people have been fighting back against them for a long time because the police refuse to protect us from them.

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/...eads_beat.html





If the police are the neo-Nazis and are working with them, what do you think we should do? Just continue letting them murder people in the streets and do nothing to fight back?



Oregon is a Democrat controlled state, Portland is run by a Democratic mayor who also serves as police commissioner. What have any of them done to stop the Nazis killing people in the streets? Why should I vote for Democrats, especially the guy who wrote the 1994 Crime Bill, when for decades they've done nothing to stop the neo-Nazis and police from murdering innocent people in the streets? How will voting for them stop fascists from killing people in the streets when it hasn't before?

Right, so your argument is that Dem's are also fascist. Both sides yadda yadda, yup bullshit.

You claim you have been fighting on the streets for decades. How will protesting and fighting on the streets for decades stop fascists from killing people on the streets when it hasn't before?

[Felya]

Because Trump is going to call Biden a radical left socialist that supports BLM and Medicare for All regardless if he does or not, which is literally happening right now.

Why do you think your winning strategy, is the same as Trump’s? Why is Trump spending millions on convincing independents that Biden supports Medicare for all, is not reflected in independents switching? Why do you think Biden saying he supports Medicare for all, sway more independents than Trump saying Biden supports Medicare for all?

Why not support a policy that 70% of Americans support (80% Democrats, 60% Independents, and 40% Republicans) that could win over the left leaning Independents he needs to win the election?

Because Trump is gaining about 50% of the vote, that disagrees with your assertion.

Why continue to try to court Republican voters when the polls show it isn't working?

Are you sure it’s not working? We have a struggling economy, 180k dead due to a pandemic and Trump supporting a tax cut, that would defund social security and Medicare.

Why is he not trying to win over the Independent voters he needs to win the election by supporting policies that appeal to them?

Because you are wrong... has been proven wrong the last two elections. Now, you are attacking democrats for not supporting something, that Trump is literally demonizing and gathering support by demonizing it. Trump might have spent the last weeks RNC convincing nearly 20 million people that Medicare for all is evil communism, but you will show those democrats. At least you will support democrats in 4 years, when Social Security and medicare are defunded. They will finally become left wing enough...

Can anyone answer that for me instead of just replying with "if they don't support Biden then they're awful people"?

Yes, in fact I didn’t use this argument at all... you literally ignored what I said... I will ask again... Why should Biden spend any capital on convincing the public he supports BLM and Medicare for all, when Trump is spending millions to do it for him?

I feel like Democrats just throwing their hands up and saying "oh well we tried to win over Republicans and we tried nothing to win over Independents guess that's that" isn't a good explanation at all. Like, do you guys even want Biden to win the election at all? Because winning over Independents is the key to doing that, and just saying "those Independent voters are bad for not supporting Biden" doesn't win Biden the election, you know? He's gotta actually offer them something to win over their vote, that's how politics works, that's why campaigns fucking exist.

These regurgitated talking points have nothing to do with what I said. Can you read what I said and respond like a human being, instead of a robot stuck on repeat?

[Belize]

"Biden needs to cater to my every whims or I'm letting Trump win" is genuinely the stupidest fucking thing I've read.

Jesus, get over yourself and grow up, that's not how any election in any country has ever worked. Biden is a lot closer to what you want than Trump.

[Felya]

Same here. I'm literally one of those left leaning Independents that he needs to win over, and I feel like I'm screaming into the wind at liberals that Biden is going to lose the election if he doesn't even PRETEND to support Medicare for All.

Oh... so just like them, you are blaming BLM for Democrats not doing better? It’s funny how you vilified democrats blaming BLM, then agreed with someone blaming democrat losses on BLM. If it wasn’t for hating on Biden, you two have an ideological conflict. As in... your assertion are hallow, because you just sided with a phantom that you complained about just a few posts before.

[Felya]

"Biden needs to cater to my every whims or I'm letting Trump win" is genuinely the stupidest fucking thing I've read.

It’s dumber, because Trump is literally doing what they ask, in painting Biden as a BLM and Medicare for all supporter, and its having the opposite effect. It’s absurdity... Trump is gaining in the polls, not because Biden does not support BLM and Medicare for all, but because Trump’s entire campaign is banking on convincing the public he does.

They are now even agreeing with the very people they chastised for blaming BLM for Democrat losses.

- - - Updated - - -

You know what I have a better idea...

Biden is going to lose the election if he doesn't even PRETEND to support Medicare for All.

That’s because Biden is a puppet of the far left and antifa. He is pretending to be this law and order candidate, but in reality he will do everything the far left wants him to do. He is biting his time, with MSM and China helping, hiding his true leftist nature, then if Trump is not elected, he will slither in and force government controlled healthcare and give your home to antifa.

I don’t know... ya all tell me that Biden doesn’t support Medicare for all, while Trump tells me he secretly does and this is a ploy by far leftist. Who should I believe? Randoms on the Internet, or the president of the US, who spent a 5 day convention, making the case that Biden does support it? Tough one...

[beanman12345]

"Biden needs to cater to my every whims or I'm letting Trump win" is genuinely the stupidest fucking thing I've read.

Jesus, get over yourself and grow up, that's not how any election in any country has ever worked. Biden is a lot closer to what you want than Trump.

Stupid, selfish and self centered. They don't want medicare for all, that requires empathy for others. What they want is medicare for themselves. If they don't personally get medicare, fuck everyone.

[Ghostpanther]

First time I have heard of this event. Interesting and also ironic at the same time.....

.....

- - - Updated - - -

Right, so your argument is that Dem's are also fascist. Both sides yadda yadda, yup bullshit.

You claim you have been fighting on the streets for decades. How will protesting and fighting on the streets for decades stop fascists from killing people on the streets when it hasn't before?

That is not what the poster indicated or said. He/she truthfully stated the Democrat authorities in Portland have did a shitty, terrible job in handling the violent and destructive protesting, thus empowering them.

[Felya]

First time I have heard of this event. Interesting and also ironic at the same time...

Now 20 years later, Trump supporters call Jesse Jackson a drama queen, while Trump retweets a supporter screaming “White power” by “accident”...

Edit: FYI, there was a significant change in Trump, post 9/11... that’s when Trump went from Howard stern interviews about busting in on teen age girl dressing rooms, to Muslims dancing on roof tops.

- - - Updated - - -

That is not what the poster indicated or said. He/she truthfully stated the Democrat authorities in Portland have did a shitty, terrible job in handling the violent and destructive protesting, thus empowering them.

.

Why is this person interpreting your posts as against protestors?

I couldn’t figure out how to quote a two word user name...

[beanman12345]

That is not what the poster indicated or said. He/she truthfully stated the Democrat authorities in Portland have did a shitty, terrible job in handling the violent and destructive protesting, thus empowering them.

Um, the poster has indicated shes part of what you said was "violent and destructive protesting." So you are arguing that she's against dem's who are empowering her? wtf?

[Felya]

Stupid, selfish and self centered. They don't want medicare for all, that requires empathy for others. What they want is medicare for themselves. If they don't personally get medicare, fuck everyone.

It is just bonkers... asking why Biden doesn’t agree with Trump’s attack ads, is absurd... not voting for Biden, because Trump’s attacks are lies, is even more bizarre.

Edit: The line about ‘Biden doesn’t even pretend’ is also very telling... it’s a demand to be lied to...

- - - Updated - - -

Um, the poster has indicated shes part of what you said was "violent and destructive protesting."

Because he is one of the few on this forum that watched the entire RNC for all 5 days last week. There is a massive disconnect between Trump’s Biden from RNC and the one presented by people like Flower. They are literally the complete opposites... its why I am trying to get Trump supporters to chat with these people, because the conflict there is far greater than with Biden voters.

Edit: I’m not saying it’s willful, but the last several pages amounts to... “Why isn’t Biden making Trump’s attacks easier?”...

[beanman12345]

It is just bonkers... asking why Biden doesn’t agree with Trump’s attack ads, is absurd... not voting for Biden, because Trump’s attacks are lies, is even more bizarre.

Edit: The line about ‘Biden doesn’t even pretend’ is also very telling... it’s a demand to be lied to...

- - - Updated - - -



Because he is one of the few on this forum that watched the entire RNC for all 5 days last week. There is a massive disconnect between Trump’s Biden from RNC and the one presented by people like Flower. They are literally the complete opposites... its why I am trying to get Trump supporters to chat with these people, because the conflict there is far greater than with Biden voters.

Edit: I’m not saying it’s willful, but the left several pages amounts to... “Why isn’t Biden making Trump’s attacks easier?”...

Ahh Joe Biden, the great paradox, the communist-fascist.

[Felya]

Oh and since someone posted Medicare for all support polling, why does it never include results of polling for government controlled healthcare? Is it just easy to pretend there weren’t protest against Obama, demanding government out of their Medicare? Are we going to pretend that the drastic difference between support of ACA versus ObamaCare doesn’t exist?

Medicare has always had major support, unless you mention government control as part of the question. This is because the public is misinformed... not by democrats not doing enough... but, by shit like the entire last week of RNC convention, where Medicare for all was being exploited as government controlled start of communism.

How about changing the mind of all those people who fear government control of healthcare, before arguing they support Medicare for all?

- - - Updated - - -

Ahh Joe Biden, the great paradox, the communist-fascist.

I have a more pessimistic perspective... It’s not a paradox... They simply agree with Trump and are trying to help.

I’m sorry for having such assumptions, but... It’s very hard to grasp such a great divide, where Trump has invested millions in a path to victory... while these “independents” believe that’s the same road to Biden victory. When has in history, something similar happened? I can’t think of a time when two opposite extremes thought their path to victory, was the same... it’s illogical...

Edit: Let me explain the logic and conflict here, because I’m not a fan of placing a scarlet letter on people...

There are two basic logical principles at the base of anyone making an argument, that at least I abide by...

First, Occam’s Razor, where the simplest explanation in this great divide, is simply trying to make Trump’s rhetoric easier.

But, Hanlon’s Razor, would disagree that it’s malice of helping Trump, instead being stupidity.

The reason I go Occam’s here... is because I don’t think these people are stupid. That’s what I consider basic logic... sorry, if this offends, but rest assured, my intent isn’t malice...