Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[beanman12345]

It is just bonkers... asking why Biden doesn’t agree with Trump’s attack ads, is absurd... not voting for Biden, because Trump’s attacks are lies, is even more bizarre.

Edit: The line about ‘Biden doesn’t even pretend’ is also very telling... it’s a demand to be lied to...

- - - Updated - - -



Because he is one of the few on this forum that watched the entire RNC for all 5 days last week. There is a massive disconnect between Trump’s Biden from RNC and the one presented by people like Flower. They are literally the complete opposites... its why I am trying to get Trump supporters to chat with these people, because the conflict there is far greater than with Biden voters.

Edit: I’m not saying it’s willful, but the left several pages amounts to... “Why isn’t Biden making Trump’s attacks easier?”...

Ahh Joe Biden, the great paradox, the communist-fascist.

[Felya]

Oh and since someone posted Medicare for all support polling, why does it never include results of polling for government controlled healthcare? Is it just easy to pretend there weren’t protest against Obama, demanding government out of their Medicare? Are we going to pretend that the drastic difference between support of ACA versus ObamaCare doesn’t exist?

Medicare has always had major support, unless you mention government control as part of the question. This is because the public is misinformed... not by democrats not doing enough... but, by shit like the entire last week of RNC convention, where Medicare for all was being exploited as government controlled start of communism.

How about changing the mind of all those people who fear government control of healthcare, before arguing they support Medicare for all?

- - - Updated - - -

Ahh Joe Biden, the great paradox, the communist-fascist.

I have a more pessimistic perspective... It’s not a paradox... They simply agree with Trump and are trying to help.

I’m sorry for having such assumptions, but... It’s very hard to grasp such a great divide, where Trump has invested millions in a path to victory... while these “independents” believe that’s the same road to Biden victory. When has in history, something similar happened? I can’t think of a time when two opposite extremes thought their path to victory, was the same... it’s illogical...

Edit: Let me explain the logic and conflict here, because I’m not a fan of placing a scarlet letter on people...

There are two basic logical principles at the base of anyone making an argument, that at least I abide by...

First, Occam’s Razor, where the simplest explanation in this great divide, is simply trying to make Trump’s rhetoric easier.

But, Hanlon’s Razor, would disagree that it’s malice of helping Trump, instead being stupidity.

The reason I go Occam’s here... is because I don’t think these people are stupid. That’s what I consider basic logic... sorry, if this offends, but rest assured, my intent isn’t malice...

[beanman12345]

Oh and since someone posted Medicare for all support polling, why does it never include results of polling for government controlled healthcare? Is it just easy to pretend there weren’t protest against Obama, demanding government out of their Medicare? Are we going to pretend that the drastic difference between support of ACA versus ObamaCare doesn’t exist?

Medicare has always had major support, unless you mention government control as part of the question. This is because the public is misinformed... not by democrats not doing enough... but, by shit like the entire last week of RNC convention, where Medicare for all was being exploited as government controlled start of communism.

How about changing the mind of all those people who fear government control of healthcare, before arguing they support Medicare for all?

- - - Updated - - -



I have a more pessimistic perspective... It’s not a paradox... They simply agree with Trump and are trying to help.

I’m sorry for having such assumptions, but... It’s very hard to grasp such a great divide, where Trump has invested millions in a path to victory... while these “independents” believe that’s the same road to Biden victory. When has in history, something similar happened? I can’t think of a time when two opposite extremes thought their path to victory, was the same... it’s illogical...

It's not pessimistic, it's pretty accurate imo. The paradox thing is just another way to concern troll.

[Felya]

It's not pessimistic, it's pretty accurate imo. The paradox thing is just another way to concern troll.

Oh and I just want to point out... Using Scarlet Letter was meant for the cancel culture bullshit...

Edit: Oh and further proof that video games rot your brain... I could have been all up in this debate yesterday, instead, I had a blast playing Madden 2021 and Torchlight 3 (here is a paradox, I like it a lot and I would not recommend it. I played the hell out of POE and would recommend that instead. I’m just burned out... Edit: Madden on PC is very glitchy, plus some of the UI choices are just dumb. It might be better on PS4, but am glad I got EA Play for 15 bucks to play the ultimate version for a month, instead of 99$...)

[Benggaul]

Exactly. And since the people who actually legislate change aren’t staying in the White House it’s far more important to vote for progressives locally and for Congress. Once we have a truly progressive voting bloc that isn’t a tiny minority we’ll see a Bernie style candidate win the nomination. Until then we need to kick out the people who don’t do enough and install people who are willing to. AOC may not be perfect, but her squad is the vanguard of that change. We just have to be willing to vote against incumbents and replace them with better candidates.

Vote out the trash and criminals, vote in people who actually care about our nation and its people.

You know, I've been saying for a while now that even had Bernie won M4A was not going to happen during this term. Bernie would have had to face the same obstructionist GOP (and some Dems) that Biden may have to face should he win. This is why we all keep saying this is not a policy election. No grand plans are going to get pushed through unless the Dems can win a majority in the Senate, and even then they'd have to win a supermajority in order to get something as huge as M4A through without a hitch. That's not happening this year. I doubt it's happening in 2022.

The presidential election this year is about one thing only: stopping the bleeding and ensuring Trump doesn't get another SCOTUS pick and stops filling the courts with Trump judges. Complaining that Biden is an imperfect candidate because he's not pushing the most progressive policies is a level of tunnel-vision that should get someone's driver's license revoked.

If you truly want change then it has to start locally. Mayors, governors, city and state representatives. House members (like AOC and "The Squad"). Just chucking Bernie into the White House was never going to get change to spontaneously happen.

[Noxx79]

Interesting poll from military times that Trump is losing the military:

https://twitter.com/bfriedmandc/stat...240739333?s=21

(In fact the “military supports republicans en mass” idea has always been a myth. The military rank and file lean slightly democratic, and generally matches the us population at large. Officers lean conservative, but the military has always been “lean” as opposed to “overwhelmingly”. I wish I had something more recent than https://swampland.time.com/2012/11/0...an-republican/)

[Krakan]

You know, I've been saying for a while now that even had Bernie won M4A was not going to happen during this term. Bernie would have had to face the same obstructionist GOP (and some Dems) that Biden may have to face should he win. This is why we all keep saying this is not a policy election. No grand plans are going to get pushed through unless the Dems can win a majority in the Senate, and even then they'd have to win a supermajority in order to get something as huge as M4A through without a hitch. That's not happening this year. I doubt it's happening in 2022.

The presidential election this year is about one thing only: stopping the bleeding and ensuring Trump doesn't get another SCOTUS pick and stops filling the courts with Trump judges. Complaining that Biden is an imperfect candidate because he's not pushing the most progressive policies is a level of tunnel-vision that should get someone's driver's license revoked.

If you truly want change then it has to start locally. Mayors, governors, city and state representatives. House members (like AOC and "The Squad"). Just chucking Bernie into the White House was never going to get change to spontaneously happen.

I honestly can't see trump losing this election nor the Democrats doing well in the senate... the past three months have been pretty disastrous with cities being burned and local mayors simply watching it happen and when they are offered aid they refuse it out of some bizzare political principle.

I honestly don't know how the election will turn out. Six months ago I would say it would of been a win for Biden just by showing up now I suspect it will be a defeat but I could be wrong.

A honest question from an outsider. Do most americans believe their news networks and does that reflect popular opinion? It is always hard to tell for certain.

[Theodarzna]

How is the line "constantly shifting"? What have left-leaning people supposedly tried to cancel? I can think of three categories: racists (including blackface)/misogynists and serial harassers (including comedians who masturbate unprovoked in front of female colleagues)/homophobic and transphobic assholes.

Tell me, should these people NOT be criticized, to protect their fee fees? Cause fuck that. Those are things which are no longer acceptable (they were never acceptable, just no one felt empowered enough to say shit about it).

I'm trying to think of anyone supposedly canceled for anything outside of those three categories, and can't come up with jack shit.

Meanwhile, the right literally tries to cancel culture. Like, any culture. Brown culture, black culture, Islamic culture, Jewish culture, music that's too violent or too anti-Christian, video games, books, which they were all about banning for a long time, art because it doesn't conform to "acceptable" standards, and so on, and so forth.

The "Constantly Shifting" bit comes from an article discussing opinion polling, cited above the quote. That isn't my specific characterization.

Because most Americans believe it both is real and is a problem and Liberals reliably will react one of two ways? One, they will deny it exists at all. Two, despite denying it exists will argue its a good thing.



Ben Burgis, hardly a Right-Winger, even has a book coming out called Canceling Comedians While the World Burns. So this is something Leftists are also critical of. Though Liberals obviously are more likely to view it with a positive light. But, it is considered to be a thing by Americans, and widely disliked and viewed negatively. The chief reason, taken from a Bloomberg piece is that:

The findings are more consistent with what the critics of cancel culture are saying. The line of unacceptability is constantly, rapidly and unpredictably shifting; sanctions for crossing it are applied arbitrarily but sometimes harshly.

That article has further links to further information.

Trumps strategy makes sense because it patently exists and Trump can count on his opposition to either deny it exists which makes Liberals look daft and dishonest, OR more ghoulishly, will argue its a good thing, which no normal person likes the idea of living under a highly punitive ever shifting and largely unknowable set of rules in which anything said or done at any point in your life can be seen as a pretext try at least to make it impossible for one to live in society, I guess normal people don't like the idea of having to follow an ever shifting code of conduct in which the punishments can be as extreme as "You might as well kill yourself".

Trump is capitalizing on the fact that Liberals WILL react in only two ways, either denial, or say its a good thing, or both. Which makes Liberals look sinister and menacing. It's easy to run on an issue by saying you share an opinion the majority also shares.

"Cancel culture" is literally just boycotting. That's it. Which is, last I checked, one of the main methods by which individuals can influence businesses in capitalism. If you have an issue with organized boycotts then you have an issue with capitalism.

Right wing does boycotts all the damn time. I remember them trying to boycott Starbucks over Christmas cups. Hell, they're trying to do a Trump lead boycott of Goodyear tires right now.

Literally the only reason right wingers are screeching about "cancel culture" is because their own boycotts suck and don't accomplish anything.

As I allude to above, it is clearly not really boycotting either as Jon Ronson described or Ben Burgis is describing. So again I refer to my earlier post.

[Benggaul]

Interesting poll from military times that Trump is losing the military:

https://twitter.com/bfriedmandc/stat...240739333?s=21

(In fact the “military supports republicans en mass” idea has always been a myth. The military rank and file lean slightly democratic, and generally matches the us population at large. Officers lean conservative, but the military has always been “lean” as opposed to “overwhelmingly”. I wish I had something more recent than https://swampland.time.com/2012/11/0...an-republican/)

Hmm, I always thought it was the opposite--that the officers lean liberal, being more highly educated in general among other reasons. @Thekri could set me straight, though.

[Elegiac]

I honestly can't see trump losing this election nor the Democrats doing well in the senate... the past three months have been pretty disastrous with cities being burned and local mayors simply watching it happen and when they are offered aid they refuse it out of some bizzare political principle.

Man, it's almost as if Trump sucks at leading a unified republic, and saying "this will be America under Biden" is kinda stupid when it already is America under Trump. Shocking.

[Theodarzna]

And it's a valid question to ask since giving people health care clearly doesn't address the full extent of concerns within a big tent party despite some people's insistence to the contrary, as seen in this thread. Once again: playing "Medicare Para Todos" on repeat didn't help Bernie in the primary.

"If the Democrats just addressed my pet issues they would easily win the election" has to be one of the more navel gazing takes of this electoral cycle.

No, it is a ploy to avoid actually doing that policy. It is unironically how the Health Insurance Industry has chosen to protect itself and they can count on the Wokies to be perfect hand maidens for Capital.

A massive universal program that helps everyone, especially the poor, is manifestly a good thing. And Racism, according to your main HR Consultancy Fee Supreme Robin DiAngelo is unsolvable, so its a nonsense point to raise.

[unfilteredJW]

so its a nonsense point to raise.

That irony though.

[beanman12345]

I honestly can't see trump losing this election nor the Democrats doing well in the senate... the past three months have been pretty disastrous with cities being burned and local mayors simply watching it happen and when they are offered aid they refuse it out of some bizzare political principle.

Yeah people really love the civil unrest in Trumps great America, he's got it in the bag.

[Elegiac]

No, it is a ploy to avoid actually doing that policy.

Only because a certain group of people have made "but Medicare for All" the universal answer to every weakness in the progressive platform and campaigning strategy which, again, clearly isn't effective in a big tent party.

It is unironically how the Health Insurance Industry has chosen to protect itself and they can count on the Wokies to be perfect hand maidens for Capital.

A massive universal program that helps everyone, especially the poor, is manifestly a good thing.

And Racism, according to your main HR Consultancy Fee Supreme Robin DiAngelo is unsolvable, so its a nonsense point to raise.

Again, fairly telling that all you can actually raise in criticism to DiAngelo is "but she works in HR" with the tone that she's only an anti-racist because her eggs are dried up or whatever; but that aside, the question remains valid simply because not addressing racism greatly decreases the possibility such universal programs will either come into existence or come into existence in such a way as to prevent ratfuckery within the letter of the law.

This isn't a theoretical concern either - every major social program in the United States ranging from the New Deal to the GI Bill has always made concessions for the ability of the federal or state governments to discriminate against minorities, even when such programs are 'universal' on the face of it. So you're caught between a public skeptical of M4A on the one hand, and people that do not believe Americans will vote for a progressive when asked to make any sort of monetary concession as M4A would require.

It's not a winning issue, regardless of its merits, and y'all have yet to demonstrate otherwise beyond navel gazing to the effect of "the Democrats will lose unless they cater to me specifically". And this continued attempt to import white European leftism into a country deeply tainted by racial animus remains a nonstarter.

Hey look, Olly Thorne made a video specifically for people who bitch about how tired they are from hearing from the experts:

[Trifle]

I am very anti Trump but I don't care for Sleepy Joe either. Awful candidates on both sides.

The very fact you call him by Trumps stupid name for him suggests you aren't "very anti-Trump"

[shimerra]

The very fact you call him by Trumps stupid name for him suggests you aren't "very anti-Trump"

Especially when Trump's nicknames are 99% what you'd expect a 2 year old with a speech delay to come up with because he made you wont let him have ice cream for dessert. Might as well call him big stupie butthead Joe or something. My favorite is when Trump calls out women, usually after they've shown themselves to be much smarter than him or ask a question he cant' answer/doesn't have a good lie for, as ugly not realizing that he's no looker himself or else he he wouldn't have to bribe porn stars to screw him.

@jdbond only people I've seen use his nicknames are supporters or supporters who lie that they aren't supporters because no one with an IQ high enough to tie their shoes thinks those nickames are good or clever unless you're a cultist/fanatic.

[Katchii]

So people will vote for a senate and presidency that has caused cities to burn? I guess that’s one way to go...

It's because it's being spun in such a way that they blame Democrats for all of it happening, or it's only happening in predominantly Democrat run cities, or it's Democrat's doing the burning, or it's anti-Trump people causing the problems....etc....

There are people out there that seriously eat up the whole "see what would happen in Biden's America!?" while showing pictures and videos of what's currently happening in Trump's America where civil unrest is at a high, and say that only Trump can fix it...when it's happening under his watch.

It is truly shocking to me how people can specifically believe THAT rhetoric....

[starlord]

ah, i see the new tactic to divert from trumps latest failures on leading the nation is to regurgitate digested & passed talking points from the dem primary.

- - - Updated - - -

It's because it's being spun in such a way that they blame Democrats for all of it happening, or it's only happening in predominantly Democrat run cities, or it's Democrat's doing the burning, or it's anti-Trump people causing the problems....etc....

There are people out there that seriously eat up the whole "see what would happen in Biden's America!?" while showing pictures and videos of what's currently happening in Trump's America where civil unrest is at a high, and say that only Trump can fix it...when it's happening under his watch.

It is truly shocking to me how people can specifically believe THAT rhetoric....

i personally know several people that believe that stuff.
sure freedom justice rah rah rah but the protests & riots are a double edged sword. hopefully come november they won't be for naught.

[Felya]

Hey look, Olly Thorne made a video specifically for people who bitch about how tired they are from hearing from the experts:

In 2 hours... damn it... you got my hopes up... see ya in the live chat?

[AntiFascistVoter]

2020: The year that spoiled brats finally have buyers remorse??

Our NBC/WSJ polls of 2020 have interviewed a combined 215 Johnson/Stein voters. And they're breaking for Biden over Trump by a 2-to-1 margin.

Given how close 2016 was, that movement -- if it holds -- is a big deal.

Poll: Third party voters from 2016 are backing Biden 2-to-1


Also, do not talk RCP polling averages too seriously. RCP has been including Rasmussen, gravis, and Trafalgar polls.
Then they are baking in a whooping 6% bonus for Trump. In their words "to account for shy Trump supporters", not opening acknowledging their support for Trump.

Shy Trump supporters ... really explains a lot of MMO-C.