1. #10961
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    6,167
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I honestly don't see how violence will be avoided if in the most polarized climated you have had in the US in ages, in a heavily armed population, you have early results with Trump clearly winning only for them to reverse with Trump tweeting 24/7 about how they are stealing the election. That's a powderkeg.
    Entirely precedented, unfortunately. Allow me to introduce one of the most important US Presidential Elections of all time, that produced an illegitimate President that stole the election, and rolled back decades of civil rights progress. No, I am not talking about 2016. I am talking about 1876.

    1876 was bad. Like, way fucking worse then now. The race was between the Democratic Tilden, and the Republican Hayes. At stake was the future of the reconstruction governments across the south. The results of the election are... still heavily disputed to this day. Tilden apparently won, by a lot, with 184 Electorial votes to Hayes 164. Tilden also won the popular vote comfortably. That total doesn't include 3 southern states, Florida, South Carolina, and Louisiana though. All three states had Republican reconstruction governments, and also a massive up-welling of Klan and Neo-Confederate groups resentful of that control. These groups barricaded polling places, threatened, attacked, and lynched black voters, and packed ballot boxes with democratic votes. Resulting in all three states reporting results of overwhelming support for Tilden, but the Republican government invalidated the results, threw them out, and declared for Hays.

    How bad was all this? Well, in Louisiana, part of the run up to this was the "Battle of Liberty Place", where 5,000 members of the White League (Exactly what it sounds like) attacked the police and government of New Orleans over the disputed gubernatorial election of 1874. Over 30 people died (And New Orleans built a massive monument honoring the White League, which they only took down in 2017). Even more extreme violence was assumed from this disastrous presidential election. In South Carolina, voter turnout was 101%, which is the highest voter turnout in all of US history, and also obviously impossible. This was even after the South Carolina government threw away thousands of democratic ballots, that was the official final tally.

    So what wound up happening is Hayes was awarded all 20 outstanding electoral votes, making Rutherford B. Hayes a US President who was almost certainly never elected to that role (But probably would have been if White Southerners hadn't suppressed Black voters and cheated like crazy). In return, the Democrats got the official end of Reconstruction, the full reinstatement of southern States, and Democratic state governments across the south that passed new state constitutions, passed sweeping voter disenfranchisement, and locked the American South into a White Supremacist government that is just now starting to show cracks.

    Bottom line: We have been here before. It got really ugly, and it left scars that lasted to today.

  2. #10962
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,588
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Biden: "Rioting is not protesting. Looting is not protesting... it's lawlessness, plain & simple... violence will not bring change. It will only bring destruction... this POTUS long ago forfeited any moral leadership. He cannot stop the violence b/c for years he has fomented it."

    Biden: "They are running on this and I find it fascinating -- 'you won't be safe in Joe Biden's America.' And what is their proof? The violence we are seeing in Donald Trump's America ... these are images of Donald Trump's America today ... it's getting worse."

    Biden: "Trump, you want to talk about fear? Do you know what people are afraid of? They're afraid they're gonna get Covid. They're afraid they're gonna get sick and die. And that is in no small part b/c of you. We're now on track for more than 200,000 deaths in this country."
    I think someone mentioned that Biden needs to be saying these kinds of things. So, there you go.
    Fan-fucking-tastic.

  3. #10963
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    Yes clearly I agree with the man who sent feds to kidnap us and bash our skulls in every night.
    Both he and you think Biden being a BLM and Medicare for all supporter, is a path to victory. I was clear in what I said...

    You got me, I thought I was getting beat up by fascists and skinheads for decades trying to defend the people of color within my community from getting beat up or killed by them because the police here refuse to do anything about them because they are also Proud Boys, but really I was mistaken and I've totally been on their side this whole time. Who knew?
    I don’t particularly care what you claim to have done in the past, when you are failing to address issues with your rhetoric. I will ask for the third time... Why should Biden put any effort into showing BLM or medicare for all support, when Trump just spent 5 days of RNC doing it for him?

    You think it’s a coincidence that the two people agreeing with you, one is a hard core Trump supporter and the other blamed BLM for Biden not doing as well? Both being things you despise, while I am pointing out, your rhetoric actually promotes. You think that’s a coincidence or there is something peculiar about it?
    Last edited by Felya; 2020-08-31 at 06:33 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  4. #10964
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,588
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The whole outcry against "cancel culture" is just people who've never had to face consequences before, because of societal privilege or advantage, suddenly having to face those consequences, and they don't like it. I don't care if they don't like it. I care if they deserve it, if their actions warrant negative consequences.

    And for the most part, they have.
    People really need to read and see this - it could not have been said better. Consequences are things people of privilege have never had to face. And they are facing them now.

  5. #10965
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Entirely precedented, unfortunately. Allow me to introduce one of the most important US Presidential Elections of all time, that produced an illegitimate President that stole the election, and rolled back decades of civil rights progress. No, I am not talking about 2016. I am talking about 1876.
    [/U]
    <snip>
    i doubt it would be as bad as that, the clashes we have had in the past year are small potatoes compared to things back then.

    trumps aspirations are about selling merchandise to trump fans. the broader fascist movements adopted him, not the other way around.

    but who knows?

  6. #10966
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,588
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    It will really be Final Judgement for the GOP on whether they try to keep things under control or really pick up the shovels for Democracy
    I'm not sure what you're getting at here, I'm just not quite understanding.

    However, if the GOP loses their Dear Leader's election, their party might just collapse completely. Although the racist fucks and MAGAhats will still need somewhere to land.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Those 3 were just specific quotes I picked out. The entire speech is worth a watch/listen.
    I've got it queued up - thanks for that. Biden's statements are how I was hoping he'd "go on the attack" - I'm glad to see him doing it.

  7. #10967
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    6,167
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    i doubt it would be as bad as that, the clashes we have had in the past year are small potatoes compared to things back then.

    trumps aspirations are about selling merchandise to trump fans. the broader fascist movements adopted him, not the other way around.

    but who knows?
    I think you are probably right. The point being that all the things we like to think are new actually aren't. America survived that (Sort of, it sort of locked us into a really dark path for a century or more), we will survive this too. 1876 is probably a lot worse then 2020 will be. And yet, we have pretty much completely forgotten 1876, and forgotten Hayes, and forgotten Tilden. We will forget Trump too, because America always forgets its ugliness and unpleasantness. We only like to remember the cool, uplifting parts of history.

  8. #10968
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    People really need to read and see this - it could not have been said better. Consequences are things people of privilege have never had to face. And they are facing them now.
    That’s the thing I hinted at earlier... they are playing ‘cancel culture’ as if it’s a Scarlet Letter. Trying to act like this is some authority punching down at the puritans, instead of the unwashed masses punching up against the elites. Even the Rawling example is a double edged sword... Before she was a victim of ‘cancel culture’ as a TERF, she was a Hollywood elite pushing a gay character in a children’s book. Isn’t that a little peculiar?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  9. #10969
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I'm not sure what you're getting at here, I'm just not quite understanding.

    However, if the GOP loses their Dear Leader's election, their party might just collapse completely. Although the racist fucks and MAGAhats will still need somewhere to land.
    so far their focus seems to be shifting to QA nutcases. i suspect that will continue. alduin will eat the world.

    eventually there will come a likeable, articulate, "libertarian" who will gather the lost lambs to their bosom, decrying democratic government control over things like M4A, more equitable housing & education, etc.
    the randians will once again rear their heads and fall in.

    so the cycle goes.

  10. #10970
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,588
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Those 3 were just specific quotes I picked out. The entire speech is worth a watch/listen.
    CNN titled the article that has his speech in it, and the title of the article might accidentally become Biden's entire campaign message:

    Biden: 'Trump makes things worse, not better'.

  11. #10971
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    I think you are probably right. The point being that all the things we like to think are new actually aren't. America survived that (Sort of, it sort of locked us into a really dark path for a century or more), we will survive this too. 1876 is probably a lot worse then 2020 will be. And yet, we have pretty much completely forgotten 1876, and forgotten Hayes, and forgotten Tilden. We will forget Trump too, because America always forgets its ugliness and unpleasantness. We only like to remember the cool, uplifting parts of history.
    good point, i only vaguely remembered that from a college level "american history" class.

  12. #10972
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    USA, Ohio
    Posts
    24,112
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    No I didn't, I said Democrats have done a shitty job of handling the white supremacist police force bashing our skulls in on a nightly basis.
    Ahh, Ok. Misunderstood. So they handled the unlawful assembly, looting ,destruction of public and private property well then.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  13. #10973
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Ahh, Ok. Misunderstood. So they handled the unlawful assembly, looting ,destruction of public and private property well then.
    Yes, especially considering they have to fight both, the rioters and the White House.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  14. #10974
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,588
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    That’s the thing I hinted at earlier... they are playing ‘cancel culture’ as if it’s a Scarlet Letter. Trying to act like this is some authority punching down at the puritans, instead of the unwashed masses punching up against the elites. Even the Rawling example is a double edged sword... Before she was a victim of ‘cancel culture’ as a TERF, she was a Hollywood elite pushing a gay character in a children’s book. Isn’t that a little peculiar?
    I saw your post, too - and you're right, the GOP/MAGAhats are using cancel culture as some kind or ridiculous abusive tactic, probably not even realizing it comes from their own racist/repulsive behavior.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    so far their focus seems to be shifting to QA nutcases. i suspect that will continue. alduin will eat the world.

    eventually there will come a likeable, articulate, "libertarian" who will gather the lost lambs to their bosom, decrying democratic government control over things like M4A, more equitable housing & education, etc.
    the randians will once again rear their heads and fall in.

    so the cycle goes.
    Baby steps, Chris, baby steps. But I hear you, loud and clear. It's a cycle that might not be breakable within the Democratic human condition. And with the divide and divisiveness that Trump and his MAGAhat racist fucks have created, I don't know how we can repair some of the damage. A person resistant to facts and logic is almost impossible to bring back into the light. And if that's true, how do we solve the education problem that fosters these people through a lack of resources and information.

  15. #10975
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I saw your post, too - and you're right, the GOP/MAGAhats are using cancel culture as some kind or ridiculous abusive tactic, probably not even realizing it comes from their own racist/repulsive behavior.
    i member freedom fries.

  16. #10976
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,588
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    i member freedom fries.
    And that was before Tweet-storms and Tweet-rages and social media bias. Imagine how bad it's going to be if Dipshit-in-Chief wins his lifetime position?

  17. #10977
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    =1]
    Baby steps, Chris, baby steps. But I hear you, loud and clear. It's a cycle that might not be breakable within the Democratic human condition. And with the divide and divisiveness that Trump and his MAGAhat racist fucks have created, I don't know how we can repair some of the damage. A person resistant to facts and logic is almost impossible to bring back into the light. And if that's true, how do we solve the education problem that fosters these people through a lack of resources and information.
    i think such change is by necessity generational.

    see all the boomers furious that millenials who grew up on equality and achieving your dreams and basic human decency actually believe that shit.

  18. #10978
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,588
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am saying that if things do go the way Axios suggests it will be very telling to see how the GOP as a party acts.
    Ah, gotcha. I would have to agree with that statement. I know that when Trump hinted at possibly delaying the election, even the starkest of hawks on the GOP side rebuffed it immediately, "scoffing" at the very idea. But yeah, we'll have to see. Hmmm, have any of those elected officials joined Trump's MAGAhat tide of ignorance in suggesting that mail-in ballots weren't safe?

  19. #10979
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    However, if the GOP loses their Dear Leader's election, their party might just collapse completely. Although the racist fucks and MAGAhats will still need somewhere to land.
    While I am still hopeful that when push comes to shove Bunker Bitch will eventually coward out, I am deeply concerned about the rabid supporters he will likely continue to influence whether he is president or not. I fear we're going to see a continued rise in right wing domestic terrorism in the coming years.
    "Go back...I just want to go back...!"

  20. #10980
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,588
    Quote Originally Posted by RadasNoir View Post
    While I am still hopeful that when push comes to shove Bunker Bitch will eventually coward out, I am deeply concerned about the rabid supporters he will likely continue to influence whether he is president or not. I fear we're going to see a continued rise in right wing domestic terrorism in the coming years.
    I agree - his election defeat will certainly not shut him up. As a narcissist, he's gotten a taste of the ultimate high (rallies) and will not be willing to give that up. And his family just bought a large piece of the OAAN Network. So his "voice" will continue to shrill out all the hate and conspiracy theories he can think up, and his audience of MAGAhats will eat it up.

    And, AND, as if things couldn't get worse IF dipshit-in-chief loses the election, he's eligible to run again in 2024.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    At this point, absence of action is collusion. The very essence of democracy is at stake for the US. We may well see a day when much of the world recognizes a US presidency with reservation. For an American First president, no one else has done more to undermine US sovereignty
    That's a very good point. And I agree that our country as it exists today is what's at stake for this election. I've said time and again, if Trump steals a second term, the United States will cease to exist as it is today.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    As for collapsing, I don't see that happening. Where would they go? This is what they know how to do and even if they end up a minority party for a fair while, they can still squeeze enormous amounts of money out of the American people in the meantime. The only way the GOP would collapse is if they become so minor that the Democrat big tent splinters, in which they would attempt to join the more right wing elements of what would be left. I'm saying this as a general observation of how political parties have acted throughout the world.
    You've hit on a point that's been percolating in the back of my little brain. Even though previously I've said the GOP would collapse upon Trump's electoral defeat, you're right that they would have no where to go. And as I agreed with @RadasNoir above, Trump will not only still have a voice, it will have it's own Network.

    And he can still run for election in 2024.

    How do we get out from under all of that?

    - - - Updated - - -

    From Biden, this afternoon: "Trump failed to protect America, so now he is trying to scare America"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •