1. #13061
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    What is CCES?
    Cooperative Congressional Election Study, I presume.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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  2. #13062
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Thanks for the cite.

    What is CCES? The article mentions it, but doesn't seem to indicate what it is or where it came from. Can you tell what it is or any other information?

    Did Biden say he was bringing back the individual mandate?
    Yes he did say he would bring back the individual mandate penalty. Right in the article I linked: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/05/joe-...e-penalty.html

    “Yes, I’d bring back the individual mandate,” says the 2020 Democratic presidential hopeful, arguing it would be popular now, “compared to what’s being offered.”
    I guarantee that after only 4 years people did not change their mind on disliking being charged for not being able to afford having insurance. Especially now that so many Americans are unemployed and lost their employer's health insurance. Also if he actually plans to implement a public option like he claims (doubtful), you would not need an individual mandate penalty, that would be pointless and cruel.
    Last edited by Flower Milk; 2020-09-08 at 04:41 AM.

  3. #13063
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    Yes he did say he would bring back the individual mandate penalty. Right in the article I linked: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/05/joe-...e-penalty.html

    I guarantee that after only 4 years people did not change their mind on disliking being charged for not being able to afford having insurance. Especially now that so many Americans are unemployed and lost their employer's health insurance. Also if he actually plans to implement a public option like he claims (doubtful), you would not need an individual mandate penalty, that would be pointless and cruel.
    Two things:

    1. That quote was from over a year ago, and a LOT has changed since then. I would be curious if Biden would say that now.

    2. It wasn't a popular part of Obamacare, but IIRC it was an important piece for making the whole package legal.

    Overall I would wager you wouldn't get that quote out of Biden now. I'm sure his Healthcare team, now that Biden is the Democratic candidate, has a better overall answer. However, anyone still backing Trump as this point, and planning on voting for him, wouldn't have the cognitive power to work through that issue.

    If Biden wins and the Senate flips, there are probably 400-500 bills that will get passed in 2021, part of which will be a bolstering of Obamacare.

  4. #13064
    Well, i mean someone much smarter than me on this topic can correct me if I'm wrong, but bringing back the individual mandate shouldn't be as big pill to swallow if they bring in a public option because then insurance companies are forced to compete with the government which should drastically bring down healthcare costs and what people are being forced to pay. But raising taxes is a necessary evil to get basically anything done, from road upkeep all the way up. People hate paying taxes, which is basically what the individual mandate really is, so it's never an easy sell.

  5. #13065
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Two things:

    1. That quote was from over a year ago, and a LOT has changed since then. I would be curious if Biden would say that now.

    2. It wasn't a popular part of Obamacare, but IIRC it was an important piece for making the whole package legal.

    Overall I would wager you wouldn't get that quote out of Biden now. I'm sure his Healthcare team, now that Biden is the Democratic candidate, has a better overall answer. However, anyone still backing Trump as this point, and planning on voting for him, wouldn't have the cognitive power to work through that issue.
    1. He hasn't walked back those comments so there is 0 evidence that he's changed his mind besides you saying "trust me, a lot has changed since then". You or I are not Joe Biden, we have no idea. I'm going to go off of what he actually said.

    2. It was ruled unconstitutional before Trump revoked the individual mandate penalty in his tax bill and removed it: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/18/appe...t-for-now.html

    Do you have any proof at all that Biden doesn't support bringing back the individual mandate penalty besides just speculation? Because he literally said he would, and has never said anything otherwise.

    And if we're going to off that, can you please explain to me what his strategy is for winning back those Obama-Trump voters that he's focused his entire campaign on by supporting the very reason they moved from Obama to Trump? What's his plan here?

    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    Well, i mean someone much smarter than me on this topic can correct me if I'm wrong, but bringing back the individual mandate shouldn't be as big pill to swallow if they bring in a public option because then insurance companies are forced to compete with the government which should drastically bring down healthcare costs and what people are being forced to pay. But raising taxes is a necessary evil to get basically anything done, from road upkeep all the way up. People hate paying taxes, which is basically what the individual mandate really is, so it's never an easy sell.
    If you're offering people a public option, you don't need to tax people for choosing not to take part in that public option. That defeats the entire point of offering a public option for people who need it. And the entire argument for the public option and against Medicare for All throughout the Democratic primary by Biden/moderates is that "Americans want choice!", and the individual mandate penalty goes completely against that idea coupled with the public option. It would mean you have no choice but to take the public option or risk paying the individual mandate penalty. And at that point, why not just do Medicare for All then, and have a system where everyone is on the exact same national single payer healthcare system where no one gets fined at all and just automatically gets healthcare from the government?
    Last edited by Flower Milk; 2020-09-08 at 04:58 AM.

  6. #13066
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    1. He hasn't walked back those comments so there is 0 evidence that he's changed his mind besides you saying "trust me, a lot has changed since then". You or I are not Joe Biden, we have no idea. I'm going to go off of what he actually said.

    2. It was ruled unconstitutional before Trump revoked the individual mandate penalty in his tax bill and removed it: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/18/appe...t-for-now.html

    Do you have any proof at all that Biden doesn't support bringing back the individual mandate penalty besides just speculation? Because he literally said he would, and has never said anything otherwise.

    And if we're going to off that, can you please explain to me what his strategy is for winning back those Obama-Trump voters that he's focused his entire campaign on by supporting the very reason they moved from Obama to Trump? What's his plan here?



    If you're offering people a public option, you don't need to tax people for choosing not to take part in that public option. That defeats the entire point of offering a public option for people who need it. And the entire argument for the public option and against Medicare for All throughout the Democratic primary by Biden/moderates is that "Americans want choice!", and the individual mandate penalty goes completely against that idea coupled with the public option. It would mean you have no choice but to take the public option or risk paying the individual mandate penalty. And at that point, why not just do Medicare for All then, and have a system where everyone is on the exact same national single payer healthcare system where no one gets fined at all and just automatically gets healthcare from the government?
    But Joe Biden is on record for wanting to create a public option. He's also on record for wanting to bring back the public mandate. I honestly have no idea than.

  7. #13067
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    1. He hasn't walked back those comments so there is 0 evidence that he's changed his mind besides you saying "trust me, a lot has changed since then". You or I are not Joe Biden, we have no idea. I'm going to go off of what he actually said.
    Are you saying that a lot hasn't changed since Summer/2019? Perhaps you've heard about this global pandemic we've been experiencing.... Also, apparently you're 100% right - Biden would indeed bring back the individual mandate. Interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    2. It was ruled unconstitutional before Trump revoked the individual mandate penalty in his tax bill and removed it: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/18/appe...t-for-now.html
    Incorrect. SCOTUS ruled that the Individual mandate in Obamacare is entirely constitutional. National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, 567 U.S. 519 (2012)


    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    And if we're going to off that, can you please explain to me what his strategy is for winning back those Obama-Trump voters that he's focused his entire campaign on by supporting the very reason they moved from Obama to Trump? What's his plan here?
    Looks like Biden is going to try and do what's right and good for the country, and if there are still Obama-Trump voters out there that want Trump over Biden because of the individual mandate, I guess Biden isn't courting them.

  8. #13068
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Incorrect. SCOTUS ruled that the Individual mandate in Obamacare is entirely constitutional. National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, 567 U.S. 519 (2012)
    The article I linked is from December of 2019, and I linked it because if Biden tries to bring back the individual mandate penalty it means he will likely face a legal battle over it from the federal courts which could make it back to the conservative majority Supreme Court. I linked it for a good reason, and that reason is it is very unlikely he will be able to bring it back unless he wants to spend a lot of political capital on it. Something that is 100% guaranteed to jeopardize the House for the Democrats in the midterms if Biden wins the presidency, just like when Republicans took back the House in 2010 because of Obamacare/the individual mandate penalty. Strategically it would be a very stupid move for him, so if you can explain why he's doing that as well, I'm all ears.

    Biden needs those Obama-Trump voters to win. He is not adopting policies like Medicare for All to court left leaning Independent voters (also ironically he could court Obama-Trump voters with Medicare for All, too), and he's not courting Obama-Trump voters by wanting to bring back the individual mandate penalty, the very thing that they moved to Trump from Obama over. He cannot win without either one of these demographics, pick one. I truly do not see what his plan for winning is without either one of these demographics in his corner.

  9. #13069
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    The article I linked is from December of 2019, and I linked it because if Biden tries to bring back the individual mandate penalty it means he will likely face a legal battle over it from the federal courts which could make it back to the conservative majority Supreme Court. I linked it for a good reason, and that reason is it is very unlikely he will be able to bring it back unless he wants to spend a lot of political capital on it. Something that is 100% guaranteed to jeopardize the House for the Democrats in the midterms if Biden wins the presidency, just like when Republicans took back the House in 2010 because of Obamacare/the individual mandate penalty. Strategically it would be a very stupid move for him, so if you can explain why he's doing that as well, I'm all ears.
    I'm doubtful the supreme court, most of whom still did originally rule on the matter, would be very eager to see such a quick 180 turn on one of their rulings.

    Moreover, any lower court challenging it would have an intense uphill battle, seeing as they'd be actively fighting against supreme court precedent set only a few years prior. These matters have to work their way up to the supreme court. They don't start there. And the challengers can't really claim "well we know you ruled this constitutional only a few years ago, but we'd like a redo on it" as legitimate grounds to challenge it. Because the defending side in a lower court could simply claim "the law stands; it's constitutional precedent." The claimants can't challenge that with "well sure it's constitutional but we don't like that!"

    If anything, they'd have to argue that Biden's plan doesn't involve the individual mandate (something that has been ruled constitutional and can't be challenged by a lower court) and instead consists of some completely separate thing that hasn't been ruled on by the supreme court and is unconstitutional.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2020-09-08 at 07:15 AM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  10. #13070
    This is an actual interesting article which I predicted would happen at least a couple of times.
    How Trump’s Billion-Dollar Campaign Lost Its Cash Advantage


    So yea the Trump campaign did it, having more money then any other campaign in history but then losing that advantage.

    At the top of the whiteboard in Mr. Stepien’s office are the latest numbers on the campaign budget, and Mr. Stepien has instituted a number of changes since he was promoted from deputy campaign manager. A proposal to spend $50 million in costs related to coalitions groups was cast aside. An idea to spend $3 million for a NASCAR car bearing Mr. Trump’s name was discarded.

    The number of staff members allowed to travel to events has been pared back to avoid what one senior campaign official described as “sponsoring vacations.”
    I mean what kind of joke is this. Planning on spending 3M on a bloody nascar car, if this was ever an serious (and since it fits) you can be sure that allot of other BS spending was done by the campaign that was never cancelled.

    More than $800,000 had been poured into boosting Mr. Parscale’s Facebook and Instagram pages; those ads ceased the day after he was removed as campaign manager.
    Some part of me is happy that these donors lost there money on a scammer but if you look at this objectively what kind of idiot allows this @@ to happen.
    Last edited by ati87; 2020-09-08 at 11:46 AM.

  11. #13071
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    This is an actual interesting article which I predicted would happen at least a couple of times.
    How Trump’s Billion-Dollar Campaign Lost Its Cash Advantage


    So yea the Trump campaign did it, having more money then any other campaign in history but then losing that advantage.



    I mean what kind of joke is this. Planning on spending 3M on a bloody nascar car, if this was ever an serious (and since it fits) you can be sure that allot of other BS spending was done by the campaign that was never cancelled.



    Some part of me is happy that these donors lost there money on a scammer but if you look at this objektivite what kind of idiot allows this @@ to happen.
    When a scammer hires scammers to scam others, should he really be surprised when he, himself, gets scammed?

    No honor among thieves and all. I have very little pity for the people being fleeced here; it was obvious to anyone paying attention what the Trump campaign and administration has been this entire time.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2020-09-08 at 07:16 AM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  12. #13072
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    This is an actual interesting article which I predicted would happen at least a couple of times.
    How Trump’s Billion-Dollar Campaign Lost Its Cash Advantage
    Saw my folks are Trump Donors today...email full of shit threatening the end of everything from the likes of Lara and Eric Trump... dumb ass asked me why his USPS deliveries are so slow...
    As above, so below.
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  13. #13073
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Biden helped create the political environment where a Trump could be possible, and now time to see if Biden has changed as much as he claims he has.
    This argument has been stupid since Trump won. Somehow it's other's fault for a bunch of gullible rubes to vote for a known conman? Fucking how?

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  14. #13074
    Quote Originally Posted by Dontrike View Post
    This argument has been stupid since Trump won. Somehow it's other's fault for a bunch of gullible rubes to vote for a known conman? Fucking how?
    He was VP for a black guy. If he didn't want a bunch of racists to absolutely lose their minds enough to vote for someone with precisely zero qualifications for the office, he shouldn't have enabled Obama's ambitions. Clearly.

  15. #13075
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    Okay, can a single liberal please explain this to me.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/05/joe-...e-penalty.html

    So Joe Biden says he's going to court Republican voters this time at the expense of the left, but he turns around and is now backing the Obamacare individual mandate penalty? Which is the very reason that Obama voters moved to Trump in 2016 and won him the election?

    Can someone please explain what his strategy is here? This literally looks like he is trying to lose. What is the benefit of this in any way outside of insurance companies making more money? And even if you think the Obamacare individual mandate penalty is good, how is it supposed to win back those Obama to Trump voters that Biden says is integral to his campaign strategy? What is he doing?!
    No, Obama voters didn't vote Trump, they voted Trump because they were stupid enough to think Trump was a good businessman, and they didn't like Hillary.

  16. #13076
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    No, Obama voters didn't vote Trump, they voted Trump because they were stupid enough to think Trump was a good businessman, and they didn't like Hillary.
    I never quite understood why someone would vote for someone solely because "he is a good businessman" to begin with (let's assume Trump is one, just for the sake of the argument). Businessman isn't someone who makes others rich. He is there to make himself more rich.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  17. #13077
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    I never quite understood why someone would vote for someone solely because "he is a good businessman" to begin with (let's assume Trump is one, just for the sake of the argument). Businessman isn't someone who makes others rich. He is there to make himself more rich.
    Exactly. There is no business that runs anything like a government.

  18. #13078
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    This is an actual interesting article which I predicted would happen at least a couple of times.
    How Trump’s Billion-Dollar Campaign Lost Its Cash Advantage


    So yea the Trump campaign did it, having more money then any other campaign in history but then losing that advantage.



    I mean what kind of joke is this. Planning on spending 3M on a bloody nascar car, if this was ever an serious (and since it fits) you can be sure that allot of other BS spending was done by the campaign that was never cancelled.



    Some part of me is happy that these donors lost there money on a scammer but if you look at this objektivite what kind of idiot allows this @@ to happen.
    Weird. I thought Trump said Nascar was going to lose all of it's viewers and no one would watch it anymore.
    Just don't reply to me. Please. If you can help it.

  19. #13079
    Quote Originally Posted by Ausr View Post
    Weird. I thought Trump said Nascar was going to lose all of it's viewers and no one would watch it anymore.
    You are aware that if the Trump brand would have joined Nascar that the popularity of the sport would be tremendous with ratings never before seen ever.

    And yes, you can take this as sarcasm and serious.

  20. #13080
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    ‘We have to get rid of Trump’: Pro-Bernie group launches effort to boost Biden
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...e-biden-391575
    A left-wing group that opposed Joe Biden in the primaries is launching a six-figure digital campaign aimed at persuading progressive voters in battleground states, especially Bernie Sanders supporters, to cast a ballot for the former vice president.

    But don’t expect it to air rose-colored ads about Biden: RootsAction.org, POLITICO has learned, has recruited some of the biggest critics of Biden within the Democratic Party to make an unvarnished case for why they’re voting for him despite their disagreements.
    This is good campaign strategy. The left attacks him for being too conservative, the right attacks him for being too liberal. Means he must be just right.

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