Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Machismo]

Except that isn't the case. Ever heard of reversed psychology? Every single republican in private states or every leak we have from the GOP states that Trump would have a harder time running against Bernie.

Trump is very good at beating milque-toast politicians and centrists. He however would have a hard time running against someone with a passionate and galvanized supporter base, someone who pushes a more controversial agenda. Bernie is seen as someone who "sticks it to the man" and opposes the status quo as much as Trump does.

I'm going to want some evidence of that. Considering most of the polls showed Biden doing better in the general election, especially in battleground states (which has been covered extensively in the last two threads), I have a hard time believing moderates want to openly embrace socialism.

it's the same reason dipshit Trumpsters tried backing Tulsi Gabbard in an attempt to muddy the waters.

It's the same reason there's so darned many foreign "Bernie supporters" shilling for Trump in this very thread.

[Machismo]

Why conservatives think Bernie is Trump's biggest threat: https://www.vox.com/2020/2/3/2108383...tism-iowa-2020

Leaked Audio Confirms Trump is Scared of Bernie: https://freespeech.org/stories/leake...red-of-bernie/

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I think you, and you're not alone, are misunderstanding what is going on here.

Many West-Europeans are very strongly social-democratic. My own wealthy european nation has a very strong foundation of socialist revolts that shaped the modern day thinking of the working class. It's why our unions and worker rights are so strong and have considerable political influence.

The kind of things american employees have to endure would see employers locked up in prison over here in bloodied and sophisticated Europe.

The european support for Bernie is very organic and natural. He's the first prominent american politician who has seen the light from a eurocentric point of view.

And yet, you have two Trumpsters shilling for Bernie... right in this thread, today.

And yet, the polls show Biden doing better against Trump... I'll stick with statistical data, thanks.

You do realize Europeans and Americans are very different when it comes to politics, right? We don't even have the same definitions for liberal and conservative over here.

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I mean they were ready to stick us with Bloomberg before he imploding on stage along with a billion dollars in self-funding. At least the DNC showed their true colors willing to change the establish rules ahead of the game. I'm sure it isn't indicative of them willing to bend or break the rules in other ways.

Bloomberg was never polling that well. People didn't really trust him, and he focused everything in a few states.

[segara82]

And yet, you have two Trumpsters shilling for Bernie... right in this thread, today.

And yet, the polls show Biden doing better against Trump... I'll stick with statistical data, thanks.

You do realize Europeans and Americans are very different when it comes to politics, right? We don't even have the same definitions for liberal and conservative over here.

Bolded the important part. According to that Hillary should be the sitting president, which she is not.
Trump and the GOP have shown that they know how the system works and how it can be used (and abused). That includes gerrymandering, voter supression, and driving people away from voting by negative ads.
Their 'Pelosi and her love for icecream' anti-Democrats clip is, from an outsiders perspective, pure gold. Not only will their loyal base show up, but democrats and swingvoters will, again, stay home and not show up to vote for whoever the DNC sends forward if the 'good guys' have such people as leaders.

[Machismo]

Bolded the important part. According to that Hillary should be the sitting president, which she is not.
Trump and the GOP have shown that they know how the system works and how it can be used (and abused). That includes gerrymandering, voter supression, and driving people away from voting by negative ads.
Their 'Pelosi and her love for icecream' anti-Democrats clip is, from an outsiders perspective, pure gold. Not only will their loyal base show up, but democrats and swingvoters will, again, stay home and not show up to vote for whoever the DNC sends forward if the 'good guys' have such people as leaders.

And part of that is concern trolling, and pretending to be Democrats and/or Bernie supporters. We've seen it in this very thread.

Of course, this is also a narrative that foreigners love to push, for one reason or another. I cannot count how many times a foreigner has pretended to be an American, shilling for Trump, or "lamenting" that the DNC is robbing Bernie.

[Theodarzna]

Bolded the important part. According to that Hillary should be the sitting president, which she is not.
Trump and the GOP have shown that they know how the system works and how it can be used (and abused). That includes gerrymandering, voter supression, and driving people away from voting by negative ads.
Their 'Pelosi and her love for icecream' anti-Democrats clip is, from an outsiders perspective, pure gold. Not only will their loyal base show up, but democrats and swingvoters will, again, stay home and not show up to vote for whoever the DNC sends forward if the 'good guys' have such people as leaders.

This take however has the unfortunate implication of "We'd be winning if people just never said anything negative about our guys!" which is true, if nobody could ever say anything but positivity about Joe Biden, or no information that might cast doubt on the goodness of a Democrats could be shared, then yes that would make elections super easy.

But, unless you labour under the delusion that Democrats are uniquely angelic beings with some inherent goodness; than its essentially "We have to stop news of the bad stuff from coming out because then people won't like our candidate", its either the bonkers belief that its impossible that there could be a flaw with a candidate, or the depraved belief that the public shouldn't be allowed to know anything negative about a candidate.

[Zaktar]

Must get old pretty fast calling everyone "Trumpster" who doesn't happen to mindlessly support the Democratic Party leadership, which itself is a cabal of corruption and power-hungry miscreants who excel at virtue signaling and little else.

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This is true.

And Trump tries to virtue signal that he'll bring them back, which is a lie of course, but it's a strong message that wins votes.

At least the Democratic Party isn't telling lies about it, which is a plus for them, but the message: "They're not coming back, and we can't be bothered working on alternative solutions for you deplorables" isn't a very good one.

That's just bullshit, they are presenting solutions, even Biden is - you're just not looking for them. He has more of a platform than "I used to know Obama" or "I'm not worse than the other guy," those are just the two things people fixate on most about him. His plans go less far than I would want, but progress is nothing to sneer at. It beats "inject urself wit disinfactant and kys I guess lul Trump4eva!!11"

[Theodarzna]

That's just bullshit, they are presenting solutions, even Biden is - you're just not looking for them. He has more of a platform than "I used to know Obama" or "I'm not worse than the other guy," those are just the two things people fixate on most about him. His plans go less far than I would want, but progress is nothing to sneer at. It beats "inject urself wit disinfactant and kys I guess lul Trump4eva!!11"

His current platform, if who actually will be running the country is any indication, is whatever Larry Summers believes in.

So lets have a look at whom will be helming the ship, Presented here is a comment from former Obama econ guy and now Biden's econ advisor:



Oh, here is another Larry Summers quote from Adults in the Room: My Battle With Europe's Deep Establishment, so said to Yanis Varoufakis.



This guy is Biden's goto guy on economics, this is what you are being asked to vote for. This is what johnnysensible describes as "progressive choice".

[segara82]

This take however has the unfortunate implication of "We'd be winning if people just never said anything negative about our guys!" which is true, if nobody could ever say anything but positivity about Joe Biden, or no information that might cast doubt on the goodness of a Democrats could be shared, then yes that would make elections super easy.

But, unless you labour under the delusion that Democrats are uniquely angelic beings with some inherent goodness; than its essentially "We have to stop news of the bad stuff from coming out because then people won't like our candidate", its either the bonkers belief that its impossible that there could be a flaw with a candidate, or the depraved belief that the public shouldn't be allowed to know anything negative about a candidate.

To the first part: No, talking about the competitors flaws is important, which makes it equally important to give your opposition fewer opportunities for attack. Pelosi's interview at home with the display of all the wealth and food she has during a national/global crisis is, IMO, PURE ignorance of the common voters problems. Friendly reminder, 22+ million people lost their job in the last few weeks due to the Corona crisis.

For the second part: Career politicians are just that for me, their party is rather irrelevant for me. I am a swing voter (in my country) and comment my outsiders view on the american elections.

[Zaktar]

His current platform, if who actually will be running the country is any indication, is whatever Larry Summers believes in.

So lets have a look at whom will be helming the ship, Presented here is a comment from former Obama econ guy and now Biden's econ advisor:

[https://i.imgur.com/GJLtLcR_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

Oh, here is another Larry Summers quote from Adults in the Room: My Battle With Europe's Deep Establishment, so said to Yanis Varoufakis.

https://i.redd.it/8bnq8ulr3wu41.jpg

This guy is Biden's goto guy on economics, this is what you are being asked to vote for. This is what johnnysensible describes as "progressive choice".

Show me where Biden has described him as a "goto guy. "

[Theodarzna]

Show me where Biden has described him as a "goto guy. "

Biden has Summers as an economic advisor, 'progressives' want him ousted.

[Zaktar]

Biden has Summers as an economic advisor, 'progressives' want him ousted.

Nowhere does it describe him as a goto guy. Instead in the source says,

A Biden adviser who asked not to be named said the campaign “is in touch with a very large and well-rounded informal network of experts” on the economy and public health.

Meanwhile Summers himself is downplaying his role already:

“Oh, I wouldn’t over-read things. The vice president and I have been friends for a long time and I’m one of many, many people who his campaign talks to but I don’t have any formal relationship to his campaign,”

I note that his statement is much more in line with the original reporting that Biden is talking to a large, well-rounded group than it is with your assertion that he is a "goto guy."

So still waiting - show me where Biden says he is a goto guy.

[Theodarzna]

goto guy....

You are hung up on a gotcha over a turn of phrase, another way of describing an advisor?

[Felya]

You are hung up on a gotcha over a turn of phrase, another way of describing an advisor?

It’s not a gotcha, you are sensationalizing. What you just did, is look at a mole hill, to complain you can’t call it a mountain.

[Zaktar]

You are hung up on a gotcha over a turn of phrase, another way of describing an advisor?

No Theo, what you said was a blatant lie. Being one of many people he's talking to is very, very different than being a "goto guy." Talking to someone who is an old friend, who has some objectionable views, is what I consider normal human behavior.

We shall see however how this story unfolds over the next few months. If Larry Summers is playing a major role in the campaign, it will be obvious.

[Theodarzna]

No Theo, what you said was a blatant lie. Being one of many people he's talking to is very, very different than being a "goto guy." Talking to someone who is an old friend, who has some objectionable views, is what I consider normal human behavior.

We shall see however how this story unfolds over the next few months. If Larry Summers is playing a major role in the campaign, it will be obvious.

Larry Summers himself denying he plays much of a role isn't proof of much. Given that his presence causes friction, he is going to either have to downplay his role or leave. Also giving a "old friend" a role in government, an advisor position despite his objectionable views you allegedly don't hold would be kinda bizarre. Having a friend, and having that friend advise you on how to run the country are different things.

[Deadite]

And part of that is concern trolling, and pretending to be Democrats and/or Bernie supporters. We've seen it in this very thread.

Of course, this is also a narrative that foreigners love to push, for one reason or another. I cannot count how many times a foreigner has pretended to be an American, shilling for Trump, or "lamenting" that the DNC is robbing Bernie.

Hmm most 'foreigners' seem to think Trump and Biden are awful and are more amazed that they choose Biden over Bernie from what i have seen.

[Zaktar]

Larry Summers himself denying he plays much of a role isn't proof of much. Given that his presence causes friction, he is going to either have to downplay his role or leave. Also giving a "old friend" a role in government, an advisor position despite his objectionable views you allegedly don't hold would be kinda bizarre. Having a friend, and having that friend advise you on how to run the country are different things.

Wild speculation - you can't help yourself, can you? Nowhere does it say he's hired by the campaign, or will be offered a position in government. In fact Summers has said the exact opposite, that he does not have a formal relationship with the campaign. If that changes, we can talk again on the subject.

Edit: Also, you say his denial is not proof of much - for what reason should I assume he's a liar? If anything the statements you're quoting suggest he's too honest for his own good. Is there a history of deception which you can provide?

[Felya]

Well, the only solace we have is that social democrats are growing as a movement within the Democratic Party as time goes on, but there is a lot of internal resistance.

It won’t, as long as they keep loosing the election as it’s growing. The more they grow, while democrats lose, the more they have to work to even return to progressive policy when they began growing.

Liberals (including the neoliberals and capitalists) are not entirely comfortable with a new 'faction' slowly getting more traction and influence within the party. Billions being pumped into attack ads and media (news articles and items) that try to discredit any such movement every year by Democratic PACs, including the types Skroe likes to donate to, or claims to donate to.

I am sorry, liberals are not the ones demonizing socialism. It’s the president of the US, who gives national speeches about evil socialism.

It also seems to annoy the Democratic Party that this progressive faction within the Democratic Party manages to win over some working class republican voters. If you keep an eye on alt-right media you'll notice how careful they are with attacking Bernie. Every time Bernie comes on in a conservative talk show the hosts just get bulldozed and the audience seems to love him. There are some basic honest ideas that he states which ring true to almost everyone who listens and isn't part of some rich privileged family or family business

Bullshit!!! The progressive faction is not moving the right wing. This is a flat out lie... you can’t argue that Biden is too conservative and that he doesn’t attract disenfranchised conservatives. Reminder, conservative groups that are not supporting Trump, are supporting Biden... including Lincoln Conservatives.

Just look at this forum... every time a social democrat is mentioned we have people like Edge and Milchshake attacking them like rabid hounds. The democratic centrists aren't friends of the progressive movement right now. They keep throwing themselves in front of the movement as obstacles to over come, arguing every time that we should move more right or that the social democratic policies aren't achievable, despite their growing popularity. Even after Bernie endorsed Biden people are constantly attacking him and AOC & co.

Nope... both @Edge and @Milchshake are responding to bullshit being stated about social democrats. The difference, which you refuse to acknowledge, is that their position is one that is most likely to accomplish goals of a socialist democrats. While yours is to set us backwards, so social democrats have to work to get us back to where we were 4 or 8 years ago. They actually care about policy, you care about your ego.

Here is a test... if you vote Biden, 1 poor person in America will do better. If you don’t vote, 1 poor person will do worse. After the next term, when a progressive gets elected. Under which scenario would they have to do more work, to get to the same point of helping poor?

[Machismo]

Hmm most 'foreigners' seem to think Trump and Biden are awful and are more amazed that they choose Biden over Bernie from what i have seen.

And those very same ones... shilling for Trump... go figure.

[Deadite]

And those very same ones... shilling for Trump... go figure.

So saying Trump and Biden are awful is shilling for Trump?