1. #13201
    The Undying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Jesus christ this is ridiculous.

    I never questioned what his turnout numbers were and your point was not just the numbers but how those numbers translated to the general. You are straight up lying now. I assume you're doing that, along with not actually addressing my "thesis" and now trying to change your argument because you know I'm right and you cannot go back and admit it.
    It really is ridiculous - your entire premise is based on "magic". Somehow, even though Bernie didn't bring out increased voters in any category in the Primary, he would "somehow" do so in the General. Nothing you've said proves this point. Your "links" were in response to Endus pointing out you didn't understand the difference between you saying something and you having to prove it. Those links had nothing to do with our discussion - those were for Felya's argument.

    Nothing you linked even remotely shows that turnout enthusiasm somehow changes with the General election. The logic of my premise is entirely sound - enthusiasm for a Candidate would show in the Primary, and if it doesn't, it won't show in the General. And the numbers I provided, and you've now conceded, have been the premise of my position.

    I just looked through those links you provided for Endus, reread them, they don't provide the counter point to my argument. Let me know if you see different, or if you have other cites/links that do.

    Cheers!

  2. #13202
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    It really is ridiculous - your entire premise is based on "magic". Somehow, even though Bernie didn't bring out increased voters in any category in the Primary, he would "somehow" do so in the General. Nothing you've said proves this point. Your "links" were in response to Endus pointing out you didn't understand the difference between you saying something and you having to prove it. Those links had nothing to do with our discussion - those were for Felya's argument.

    Nothing you linked even remotely shows that turnout enthusiasm somehow changes with the General election. The logic of my premise is entirely sound - enthusiasm for a Candidate would show in the Primary, and if it doesn't, it won't show in the General. And the numbers I provided, and you've now conceded, have been the premise of my position.

    I just looked through those links you provided for Endus, reread them, they don't provide the counter point to my argument. Let me know if you see different, or if you have other cites/links that do.

    Cheers!
    Provide a link that proves primary turnout translates to general turnout. Do it now or you admit you've been wrong this whole time. Because you haven't provided anything.

    My links illustrate how I came to my conclusion. You still, after crying about me not providing any evidence to support any of my claims have to provide a single thing backing up your wholly stupid, ignorant and ridiculous implication that no one else votes in general elections other than the people that vote in their respective primaries. Nor have you actually countered a single point I made with anything other than your own feelings.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  3. #13203
    Why are people are arguing about a what if scenario regarding Bernie? I love him. He’s not the nominee.

  4. #13204
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    Why are people are arguing about a what if scenario regarding Bernie? I love him. He’s not the nominee.
    It really isn't about Bernie, its about the mindset of the independent American voter.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  5. #13205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Provide a link that proves primary turnout translates to general turnout. Do it now or you admit you've been wrong this whole time. Because you haven't provided anything.

    My links illustrate how I came to my conclusion. You still, after crying about me not providing any evidence to support any of my claims have to provide a single thing backing up your wholly stupid, ignorant and ridiculous implication that no one else votes in general elections other than the people that vote in their respective primaries. Nor have you actually countered a single point I made with anything other than your own feelings.
    Let us know when you're ready for a logical discussion. Relying on "magic" to say that a candidate who doesn't bring out voters in a Primary will "somehow" bring them out in a General is just silly.

    My position is solid. You agree with the numbers, and that's what it's been based on this entire time.

    Cheers!

  6. #13206
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Let us know when you're ready for a logical discussion. Relying on "magic" to say that a candidate who doesn't bring out voters in a Primary will "somehow" bring them out in a General is just silly.

    My position is solid. You agree with the numbers, and that's what it's been based on this entire time.

    Cheers!
    I've given nothing but logic. You haven't given shit. Still haven't. All while saying I haven't backed up anything which makes you a hypocrite.

    Defend your claim with facts or even a cogent reason. Explain how 80 million voted in the general last year that didn't vote in either of the primaries and why they aren't worth anything to you. Do it.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  7. #13207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I've given nothing but logic. You haven't given shit. Still haven't. All while saying I haven't backed up anything which makes you a hypocrite.
    You haven't. Whatsoever. Your claim continues to be that if a candidate cannot inspire people to turn out for a Primary, they will somehow magically inspire them to turnout in the General. Which is logically unsound and factually wrong. And I've linked cites, two now, that show my position to be correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Defend your claim with facts or even a cogent reason. Explain how 80 million voted in the general last year that didn't vote in either of the primaries and why they aren't worth anything to you. Do it.
    Where are you getting those numbers? 80 million in the General last year? 2019? or do you mean 2018?

  8. #13208
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    Don’t for a minute pretend Democrats wouldn’t do the same thing if given the chance. In fact they tried in Obama’s last year with Merrick Garland. Maybe Ginsburg should have retired early on in Obama’s second term and this wouldn’t be an issue for Democrats.
    No, they wouldn't do the same. And I guarantee McConnell would have stopped ANY nominations if he could when Obama was in office. Considering how many judge vacancies weren't filled under Obama, because of McConnell, it is entirely True that McConnell doesn't care about the Constitution or the rule of law.

  9. #13209
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    You haven't. Whatsoever. Your claim continues to be that if a candidate cannot inspire people to turn out for a Primary, they will somehow magically inspire them to turnout in the General. Which is logically unsound and factually wrong. And I've linked cites, two now, that show my position to be correct.
    Funny i see a lot of words still nothing to back up your bullshit.


    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Where are you getting those numbers? 80 million in the General last year? 2019? or do you mean 2018?
    I misspoke I meant last election not last year.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  10. #13210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I misspoke I meant last election not last year.
    So 2016 then? Going to assume 2016 because we're talking about the Presidential election.

    Those 80M votes do matter, never said they didn't. My point is that there wouldn't be more this year if Bernie had won the nomination. Because he didn't bring out more in the Primary, even though they are different processes - we're talking about a percentage increase in any one group of people (young voters in this case).
    Last edited by cubby; 2020-09-20 at 10:27 PM.

  11. #13211
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    So 2016 then? Going to assume 2016 because we're talking about the Presidential election.

    Those 80M votes do matter, never said they didn't. My point is that there wouldn't be more this year if Bernie had won the nomination. Because he didn't bring out more in the Primary, even though they are different processes - we're talking about a percentage increase in any one group of people (young voters in this case).
    Dude no. I respect you, and most of the time you are on point, but this isn't one of those times.

    Bernie didn't turn out the vote in the primaries. That could be for any number of reasons (COVID, 50 different sets of rules for primaries, young voters under 18 at primary time who would have been over 18 by November, voters unwilling to affiliate with the DNC, Never Trump Republicans unwilling to change their registration but willing to vote against Trump in November, etc).

    You can't reasonably say with any degree of certainty that because Bernie didn't turn out Democratic voters in the primary, he would have been unable to turn out unaffiliated voters in the general.

    For that matter, Bodakane can't reasonably say with any degree of certainty that he would have brought the increased turnout.

    This entire conversation is a pointless thought exercise that has no bearing whatsoever in the 2020 general election, and is wildly off topic at this point.
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  12. #13212
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    I thought Biden won the primary without people being enthusiastic about him?

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  13. #13213
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    So 2016 then? Going to assume 2016 because we're talking about the Presidential election.

    Those 80M votes do matter, never said they didn't. My point is that there wouldn't be more this year if Bernie had won the nomination. Because he didn't bring out more in the Primary, even though they are different processes - we're talking about a percentage increase in any one group of people (young voters in this case).
    I mean, you guys could settle this pretty easily. Obama had record turnout in the general, did he in the primary also?

  14. #13214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiganon View Post
    Dude no. I respect you, and most of the time you are on point, but this isn't one of those times.

    Bernie didn't turn out the vote in the primaries. That could be for any number of reasons (COVID, 50 different sets of rules for primaries, young voters under 18 at primary time who would have been over 18 by November, voters unwilling to affiliate with the DNC, Never Trump Republicans unwilling to change their registration but willing to vote against Trump in November, etc).

    You can't reasonably say with any degree of certainty that because Bernie didn't turn out Democratic voters in the primary, he would have been unable to turn out unaffiliated voters in the general.

    For that matter, Bodakane can't reasonably say with any degree of certainty that he would have brought the increased turnout.

    This entire conversation is a pointless thought exercise that has no bearing whatsoever in the 2020 general election, and is wildly off topic at this point.
    Perhaps. But the only fact in play in this "thought exercise" is that Bernie DIDN'T turn out the vote in the Primary. If, as you say, everything else is beyond reason to prove, the only fallback is that Bernie didn't perform as expected. A logical conclusion to this fact, is that he wouldn't have in the General.

    I'm very comfortable with the idea that we can't know for sure - it's pretty obvious actually. And, to go a step further, even if we had data on one candidate, the data set itself would always be too small or too subjective to know for sure.

    But Bodakane is attempting to make a point which NO FACTS even remotely support. And that's where this conversation comes into play.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    I mean, you guys could settle this pretty easily. Obama had record turnout in the general, did he in the primary also?
    Obama in fact did have record turnouts. I was kinda holding back on that point until Bodakane went in that direction. He never did because he's stuck in some magically delicious false causality loop.

  15. #13215
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I thought Biden won the primary without people being enthusiastic about him?
    Someone was gonna win the primary. Enthusiasm is kinda irrelevant there.

    Biden won because people thought he was more electable, despite Bernie representing their best interests far better. They made a mistake.

    They feared the "socialism" attack ads would be super effective vs. Bernie. Well looky here, they are still using the "socialism" attack ads, to great effect, against.....center right biden.

  16. #13216
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Biden still seems to have issues with simple math.....https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bid...die-from-covid

    2020 Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden had another gaffe on Sunday when he said an estimated 200 million people have already died from the coronavirus, even though the number of American casualties is closer to 200,000.

    "If Donald Trump has his way, the complications from COVID-19, which are well beyond what they should be -- it's estimated that 200 million people have died -- probably by the time I finish this talk," he said during a campaign speech.


    This isn't the first time Biden has mixed up his math and made head-scratching remarks about the coronavirus mortality rate.

    Back in June, Biden wrongly claimed 120 million people had died as a result of COVID-19, during a campaign stop in Pennsylvania.

    “People don’t have a job, people don’t know where to go, they don’t know what to do,” he said. “Now we have over 120 million dead from COVID.”
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
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  17. #13217
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Biden still seems to have issues with simple math.....https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bid...die-from-covid

    2020 Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden had another gaffe on Sunday when he said an estimated 200 million people have already died from the coronavirus, even though the number of American casualties is closer to 200,000.

    "If Donald Trump has his way, the complications from COVID-19, which are well beyond what they should be -- it's estimated that 200 million people have died -- probably by the time I finish this talk," he said during a campaign speech.
    You are really using this bullshit, when Trump is WORSE? And stop linking state propaganda, we know you have it on 24/7, which is why you don't know what the fuck you are talking about 90% of the time, but jesus fucking christ this is asinine.

  18. #13218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Someone was gonna win the primary. Enthusiasm is kinda irrelevant there.

    Biden won because people thought he was more electable, despite Bernie representing their best interests far better. They made a mistake.

    They feared the "socialism" attack ads would be super effective vs. Bernie. Well looky here, they are still using the "socialism" attack ads, to great effect, against.....center right biden.
    And from all accounts, those attacks are having about the same impact as bunny farts. Also, Biden, center right? He's a moderate, not conservative.

    Biden being a centrist is part of the reason those 'Biden is a radical socialist!' attacks aren't really working. Bidens appeal, in my opinion, lies in his 'boring' nature; people want a return to normality adn stability after the chaos of the past four years but especially this year with the pandemic and Trumps utterly incompetent handling of it. Biden promises basically a normal 'boring' Presidency compared to Trump.

    Biden has a pretty simple argument to make, which is to ask "Are you better off now than you were four years ago?" and I think the answer for a lot of people is 'No'.
    "If you are ever asking yourself 'Is Trump lying or is he stupid?', the answer is most likely C: All of the Above" - Seth Meyers

  19. #13219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Biden still seems to have issues with simple math.....https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bid...die-from-covid

    2020 Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden had another gaffe on Sunday when he said an estimated 200 million people have already died from the coronavirus, even though the number of American casualties is closer to 200,000.

    "If Donald Trump has his way, the complications from COVID-19, which are well beyond what they should be -- it's estimated that 200 million people have died -- probably by the time I finish this talk," he said during a campaign speech.


    This isn't the first time Biden has mixed up his math and made head-scratching remarks about the coronavirus mortality rate.

    Back in June, Biden wrongly claimed 120 million people had died as a result of COVID-19, during a campaign stop in Pennsylvania.

    “People don’t have a job, people don’t know where to go, they don’t know what to do,” he said. “Now we have over 120 million dead from COVID.”
    Where are all you links for Trump's misspeaks again? We'll wait for those links...

    It's sad that Trumpkins only have this to use.

  20. #13220
    Scarab Lord Zaydin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Where are all you links for Trump's misspeaks again? We'll wait for those links...

    It's sad that Trumpkins only have this to use.
    Yep. When Biden misspeaks, he owns up to it and corrects himself.

    When Trump lies, he doubles down on it and refuses to admit he was wrong. See also: Sharpiegate.

    That would have been a one day story at best if he had just said 'My tweet was based on outdated information and I apologize if I created any unnecessary confusion or panic".
    "If you are ever asking yourself 'Is Trump lying or is he stupid?', the answer is most likely C: All of the Above" - Seth Meyers

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