1. #14721
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    I am? I don't recall saying that. Perhaps you quoted someone else saying that.
    Seemed like it to me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    In part, because they have no choice.

    The same reason we lefties are voting for Biden, because we have no choice. If the argument works on us it works on everyone else.
    It’s why I asked...

    And I don't give two fucks what "Bernie Bros" these mythical neck-bearded under-the-bed boogie-men the Democrats invented to scare people off voting for Boring Biden, are doing.
    Totally dude... these boogie man, that posy here regularly.

    I'm voting Biden because I have no choice. Not because I like him. Not because I think he'll implement policies I want. Not because I think he'll really stick it to the Republicans like they deserve. But because Trump has a goddamned gun to my country's head and Joe doesn't.
    Welcome to the club? So... what’s the conflict?

    I expect nothing from the Democrats and will give them nothing beyond my vote. They don't have my sympathy. They don't have my praise. They don't have my tears. The current situation in the country is as much their fault as it is the Republicans. Sure the Democrats aren't actively burning the country to the ground, but they're sure not pulling out the fire hoses.
    Yeah, unless you cry while being angry, not something I expected.

    So I have no choice. The argument works in reverse if Bernie had been the nominee. And anyone who would rather sit home and watch the country burn (literally in some places) or worse decide its better to throw gas on the fire rather than risk voting for an actual leftist can, as I sad a thousand pages ago, GET FUCKED.
    I’ll take that as no... equally vindictive... lol
    As above, so below.
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  2. #14722
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Saying the primary results are an indicator of the general results is like saying the winner of the Indy 500 is an indicator of the results in a footrace between that driver and the winner of the Daytona 500.
    Except they are. Show me a single person who lost the primary and then beat the person they lost to in the general. Now go look at primary turnout vs general turnout. People need to stop pretending the 2nd place team in the East would have won the championship if we let them play in it. That’s not how any of this works and you have no evidence to prove your guy would have done better if not for those meddling primary voters.

  3. #14723
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Your reading comprehension is shit. I didn't say people NOW want more Trump. I said when faced with a choice between same old same old Biden and Trump before covid, that the independents likely make the same choice they already made.
    You literally quoted me saying exactly that. Reactionary, read the second sentence. “NOW” wtf?

    Again, you vastly overrate the typical person's ability to pay attention to politics. I think Bernie or Warren versus Trump pre or post covid, then those same independents that chose Trump in 2016 would choose them in 2020.
    Am I supposed to respond to covid doesn’t mater or that it does? WTF?

    No desire too.
    That choice of words though... *cat sound*

    The discussion/argument I was having with Cubby was 100% about him telling me that Bernie or Warren objectively would not win the general because they didn't;t get the turnout in the primary. So you quoted a rebuttal to that specifically and tried to tell me I was wrong and now want to pretend you had a different point then the one I was arguing? lols
    Still do... because of these reactions. Every post confirms exactly what I’m saying.

    Yes, i'm denying I said that, implied that, wrote it in smoke signals, sent it to you with carrier pigeons, whatever...because, get this now... I didn't.
    Which part of, I know, did you not understand? Wtf?

    By pointing out to you that only 50% of primary winners win the election, you should be able to discern that it is a toothless point you are making. Besides, I've numerous times explained Dems vote the primaries by the person they think will win not by who they want, which further takes the bite out of your stupid point.
    Because that answer means nothing. It’s also not true... but, if it were, the answer you are afraid to say is 0. If it was a stupid point, you’d just say 0. You expect me to see you ever admit you are wrong? Please...

    You're fluent in something.......

    It is as accurate as the primary being indicative of the general.
    Yeah, it’s cool... I get to see Russian news in Russian... you should be jealous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Except they are. Show me a single person who lost the primary and then beat the person they lost to in the general. Now go look at primary turnout vs general turnout. People need to stop pretending the 2nd place team in the East would have won the championship if we let them play in it. That’s not how any of this works and you have no evidence to prove your guy would have done better if not for those meddling primary voters.
    He is literally arguing that there is no indication that Bernie would win... because he dug him self a hole, where any indication is empirical.

    Edit: Watch this...

    @Bodakane is there any indication that Bernie would beat Trump?
    Last edited by Felya; 2020-09-20 at 03:26 AM.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  4. #14724
    Quote Originally Posted by Eviscero View Post
    Well, what we do know is that he wasn't able to turn them out in numbers sufficient to win the primary. You're welcome to use the technically correct but entirely weak argument that "we can't predict the future," but I for one am comfortable believing the system worked as intended and protected us from the less viable candidate.
    I'm using the argument of "His base was not eligible to vote in most Democratic primaries, because they are not registered as Democrats, and he didn't bring in the establishment primary voters he needed to". It has nothing to do with predicting the future, it's about apples and oranges.
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  5. #14725
    @Felya Bernie had no chance of winning the general because he couldn’t win the primary.

  6. #14726
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    @Felya Bernie had no chance of winning the general because he couldn’t win the primary.
    You can’t say that... shit happens... the best you can do is show data points and indicators. Otherwise, well... quagmire you see before you.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  7. #14727
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    You can’t say that... shit happens... the best you can do is show data points and indicators. Otherwise, well... quagmire you see before you.
    I can say that because there isn’t a single example of someone losing a primary and then going on to beat anyone in the General. If you have concrete data to show me I’m wrong feel free to do so, but as far as I’m aware the winner of the General has also always won their primary first.

  8. #14728
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    @Felya Bernie had no chance of winning the general because he couldn’t win the primary.
    They are different electorates. The general is usually twice as many voters, and has many, many more independent voters.

    Guess which candidate was strongest among independents.

    Something that flew under the radar during Super Tuesday was that while Biden was running up the score in the win column, someone else was winning independent voters in all but three states.
    "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
    -H.L. Mencken, 1920

  9. #14729
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiganon View Post
    That isn't necessarily true though. Many people who would support an outsider candidate in the general election are simply barred from participating in the primary process in the first place, as closed primaries are very common. This is true on both sides.
    But the people who are allowed to participate in the Primary, there will be an increase in those people's turnouts. I'm not saying any one particular group in either Primary or General, I'm just saying that if there is a claim that the candidate will increase turnout in the General, then we will see that increase as well in the Primary - even if it's different groups of people.

    Bernie did not do that in the Primary.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    I don't think this is necessarily true. Turnout for primaries is usually about half that of the general to begin with. Particularly independents, which may lean to one side or another but don't consider themselves part of a party and are less likely to participate in the primary (or can't). And then there's the people that don't tune into to politics until close to the election, so without some sort of numbers, I don't know if I can take this assumption outright.
    I'm just talking percentages, of a group that would already have shown up for the Primary. If a candidate is going to significantly increase voter turnout, that increase will be reflected in the Primary.

  10. #14730
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I’ll take that as no... equally vindictive... lol
    That's not vindictiveness genius.

    I'm not saying people who don't support the cause need to suffer.

    I'm saying they shouldn't be catered to.

    This was my central argument a thousand fucking pages ago and y'all still don't seem to get it. Even as your boy Biden is poised to repeat all the mistakes of the previous Democratic administrations. Caring about people who don't care about you while ignoring people who do is a good way to find yourself in a real bad spot real quick.

    If anyone says "You Democrats aren't good enough for me, I'd rather vote for the guy actively burning my house down." there is no reason to cater to what they want, ever. They are persona-non-grata in the electoral process until they, not we, until THEY pull their head out of their own asshole. We can't be responsible for pulling everyone out of the hole they've dug for themselves.

    If you think for even a second that electing a rational human being to the Oval Office means Republicans are going to stop shitting the bed, you're just plum crazy.
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  11. #14731
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Gah. You are saying they are the same and I have shown you how they are different.
    I am NOT SAYING THEY ARE THE SAME. I just fucking told you they are different. Please refer to it again:
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I agree that the Primary process is different from the General process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    You are flat out saying if Candidate X can't increase turnout in the primary then they cannot increase turnout in the general. How is that not saying the they are same?
    Because the enthusiasm is the issue, not the similarities in any process or groups of voters. If you claim a candidate will significantly increase voter turnout, then we would see that in the Primary. And we didn't.

    Basic logic, something you continue to deny, because you "feel" that Bernie would turn out the vote in the General, when all data shows the exact opposite.

  12. #14732
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    That's not vindictiveness genius.

    I'm not saying people who don't support the cause need to suffer.

    I'm saying they shouldn't be catered to.

    This was my central argument a thousand fucking pages ago and y'all still don't seem to get it. Even as your boy Biden is poised to repeat all the mistakes of the previous Democratic administrations. Caring about people who don't care about you while ignoring people who do is a good way to find yourself in a real bad spot real quick.

    If anyone says "You Democrats aren't good enough for me, I'd rather vote for the guy actively burning my house down." there is no reason to cater to what they want, ever. They are persona-non-grata in the electoral process until they, not we, until THEY pull their head out of their own asshole. We can't be responsible for pulling everyone out of the hole they've dug for themselves.

    If you think for even a second that electing a rational human being to the Oval Office means Republicans are going to stop shitting the bed, you're just plum crazy.
    Funny you use burning down the house when it seems that the left are doing all the burning right now.

    Can someone actually explain what Trump has "burned down"? I am curious. He is a self grandstanding, slimy NY business man. A really ahole of a person, but has he actually burned down? I mean really. Before the pandemic, the economy was humming and jobs were humming along. He has made strides toward peace in the middle east. No new wars, in fact he is trying to bring troops home.

    What exactly has he done that is so bad to be called "burning down the house"?

  13. #14733
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    I just want to add to this weird ass take that one has to win their primary to make change, a wholly misinformed take.

    Stacy Abrams lost lost her election has more for election outreach and voter participation than I anyone thinks election results are the stopgap could imagine. The value of value of Fair Fight is incredible when it comes to voter participation and getting the right people on the ballot, and yet it was founded by someone who lost their election.

    Its very shortsighted or disingenuous to actually argue Bernie has not brought more attention to the political process for people otherwise out of the loop.

    If you wonder why progressives are frustrated with mainline liberals it's because of outlandish takes like "Bernie did not bring people into the fold". Hell even Sir Combover brought new people into the political process, both for and against him.
    Last edited by PACOX; 2020-09-20 at 04:42 AM.

  14. #14734
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    They are different electorates. The general is usually twice as many voters, and has many, many more independent voters.

    Guess which candidate was strongest among independents.

    Something that flew under the radar during Super Tuesday was that while Biden was running up the score in the win column, someone else was winning independent voters in all but three states.
    Nothing you’ve presented in any way indicates Bernie would outperform Biden.

  15. #14735
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    Quote Originally Posted by silveth View Post
    Before the pandemic
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    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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  16. #14736
    OK, people who think Sanders would win vs Trump are high.

    Sanders is two decades early with his policies and he's also perceived as uncompromising hardliner at that with less than savory supporters. Even if by some miracle he'd win nomination, he'd just be destroyed in generals by independents and centrists.

    Heck, if not Trump's horrendous COVID-19 failure, he'd likely sink Biden too. Trump really fucked it up bad in 2020, all the noise before that is nowhere near the monumental failure of response to coronavirus.

  17. #14737
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    OK, people who think Sanders would win vs Trump are high.

    Sanders is two decades early with his policies and he's also perceived as uncompromising hardliner at that with less than savory supporters. Even if by some miracle he'd win nomination, he'd just be destroyed in generals by independents and centrists.

    Heck, if not Trump's horrendous COVID-19 failure, he'd likely sink Biden too. Trump really fucked it up bad in 2020, all the noise before that is nowhere near the monumental failure of response to coronavirus.
    Bernie never had a chance because a sizable portion of liberals are full of shit. The idea of being a left-wing party adopting left-wing politics is more attractive to them than being an actual left-wing party. They need their Joker or they can't function, that's the GOP. The same party they'll make concessions with on 'red line' issues if things get too sticky for them.

  18. #14738
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Bernie never had a chance because a sizable portion of liberals are full of shit. The idea of being a left-wing party adopting left-wing politics is more attractive to them than being an actual left-wing party. They need their Joker or they can't function, that's the GOP. The same party they'll make concessions with on 'red line' issues if things get too sticky for them.
    More like hardliners like Bernie need to realize that they can't change everything to their liking right away and it's a process.

    It's fine to have a long term plan, as opposed to change everything 180 degrees right now and whoever is not with us is against us - people just don't buy that shit and they are right about it.

    There won't be any revolution there, it can be a transition, but only if flexibility is shown. It does not have to be this silly black and white - "if you're not backing our shit, then you're a con" radicalism.

  19. #14739
    Did this thread jump back in time to discuss all this irrelevant Bernie stuff or something?

    I thought people had moved on from the primaries.

  20. #14740
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    More like hardliners like Bernie need to realize that they can't change everything to their liking right away and it's a process.

    It's fine to have a long term plan, as opposed to change everything 180 degrees right now and whoever is not with us is against us - people just don't buy that shit and they are right about it.

    There won't be any revolution there, it can be a transition, but only if flexibility is shown. It does not have to be this silly black and white - "if you're not backing our shit, then you're a con" radicalism.
    I don't think Bernie expected an immediate 180. In fact that would be uncharacteristic of his political career. His methods have always been start a dialogue, push the idea further, then try to implement it. One criticism against Bernie is that he was too nice to his contemporaries for the ideas he was trying to push. Another, which I believe is valid, is that his ideas created too much work for the average person to see them through. In the spirit of what I said earlier, people like ideas more than seeing them through. Bernie's platforms asks a lot from people who are content/used to politians doing half assed jobs while staying out of sight and mind. Americans are lazier and willing to settle than they would like to admit.

    Do people really think he was speaking short term goals? The man was talking sweeping reform of some institutions, nothing short term about that.

    But yeah there's not many politicians who stayed close to their convictions while in office - Bernie is one of the rare ones. I feel like a lot of people really think he just came out of no where though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    That’s illogical... the majority of independents are moderate... that’s basic logic. If your argument is that the left extreme has splintered off from democrats, to the point they don’t vote democrats in the general election... then expect democrats to keep pushing for more reliable voters. Not that it matters... the left not voting for democrats, is the reason why Trump’s initial reaction to Bernie dropping out, was to tell leftists that democrats don’t represent them... while telling his supporters, far leftists are the evil controlling moderate democrats.
    I did not even see this post earlier. How do you come to think conclusion that most independents are moderates because that's a huge reach

    A independent can be anywhere on the spectrum with many being left or right because they are dissatisfied with the centrists of either major party. There's quite a few left Or right NPAs on this site. .
    Last edited by PACOX; 2020-09-20 at 12:50 PM.

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