1. #14741
    Quote Originally Posted by Antiganon View Post
    I'm using the argument of "His base was not eligible to vote in most Democratic primaries, because they are not registered as Democrats, and he didn't bring in the establishment primary voters he needed to". It has nothing to do with predicting the future, it's about apples and oranges.
    Kay. So at best he wasn't inspiring enough to get his supporters to take the necessary steps to support him beyond making tiny donations.

    Maybe Bernie could have taken a few minutes away from repeating the exact same message every time he took to the stage to instruct folks on how to switch affiliations to vote for him.

    He lost. Accept it and vote Biden if you ever want to be able to vote again.

  2. #14742
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    There's several posts talking about how people don't engage in primaries. And still you can't deny how many people he got to engage and how he even got the DNC to move left.

    Not sure how interested I am in a conversation with someone who can't realize the impact Bernie had. You don't have to like the man or his policies, it's a basic understanding of the way politics work.
    I never said he didn't have an impact. That is clear goalpost moving. He couldn't get people out to vote. I don't give 2 shits about anyone who can't be bothered to vote in a primary then bitch about their candidate not being there at the end.

  3. #14743
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Reading back, I swear it's liberals who are the most worried about Biden as a candidate. The 2nd in a row the party has put up a candidate that care nothing about and are simply voting for because it's name is not Trump. Maybe that's why some people are frustrated when you say you'll vote for Biden but not enthusiastically because that's the same problem Clinton faced.

    Really what else do liberals want from progressives? Those who are going to vote are going to for Biden, the rest are people you say don't vote anyway. Approaching 30 days. Maybe ya should focus more on making sure people across party lines are board then preparing to throw the left under the bus again.

  4. #14744
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    You literally quoted me saying exactly that. Reactionary, read the second sentence. “NOW” wtf?



    Am I supposed to respond to covid doesn’t mater or that it does? WTF?



    That choice of words though... *cat sound*



    Still do... because of these reactions. Every post confirms exactly what I’m saying.



    Which part of, I know, did you not understand? Wtf?



    Because that answer means nothing. It’s also not true... but, if it were, the answer you are afraid to say is 0. If it was a stupid point, you’d just say 0. You expect me to see you ever admit you are wrong? Please...



    Yeah, it’s cool... I get to see Russian news in Russian... you should be jealous.

    - - - Updated - - -



    He is literally arguing that there is no indication that Bernie would win... because he dug him self a hole, where any indication is empirical.

    Edit: Watch this...

    @Bodakane is there any indication that Bernie would beat Trump?
    You have ceased making literally any sense at all. Like seriously, none of your responses actually address a single point I’ve made and you keep pretending I’m making completely different arguments. Come back to the planet and we can continue but until then....
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


  5. #14745
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I did not even see this post earlier. How do you come to think conclusion that most independents are moderates because that's a huge reach
    Math... several pages of it... random number sets, bidirectional on middle... 3 pages... go read...

    Edit: I’ll make it easy... follow this post for an extensive explanation, followed by 3 relatively short explanations that try to explain in different ways. I don’t mind explaining and this post has 4 ways to do so, see if one works:
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Edit 3:
    ============
    A moderate can be anywhere on the spectrum with many being left or right because they are dissatisfied with the centrists of either major party. There's quite a few left Or right NPAs on this site. .
    Yes, and people who don’t read are, what?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    You have ceased making literally any sense at all. Like seriously, none of your responses actually address a single point I’ve made and you keep pretending I’m making completely different arguments. Come back to the planet and we can continue but until then....
    What indicator do you have that Bernie could win the election? Name one...

    Edit: The reason Trump won and will win, is this... the education in this country is shit and filled with reactionaries.
    Last edited by Felya; 2020-09-20 at 01:37 PM.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  6. #14746
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I am NOT SAYING THEY ARE THE SAME. I just fucking told you they are different. Please refer to it again:





    Because the enthusiasm is the issue, not the similarities in any process or groups of voters. If you claim a candidate will significantly increase voter turnout, then we would see that in the Primary. And we didn't.

    Basic logic, something you continue to deny, because you "feel" that Bernie would turn out the vote in the General, when all data shows the exact opposite.
    Saying they are different means little when basing your entire argument on the fact that the results of one will match the other.

    You have gotten it in your head that getting voters to turn out to vote once in the general is the same as getting people registering with a specific party, following the primaries, and going out to vote in the primaries during a pandemic.
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


  7. #14747
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    That's not vindictiveness genius.
    Yeah, it is... you expect me to read this and not think it’s vindictive? lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Saying they are different means little when basing your entire argument on the fact that the results of one will match the other.

    You have gotten it in your head that getting voters to turn out to vote once in the general is the same as getting people registering with a specific party, following the primaries, and going out to vote in the primaries during a pandemic.
    What is your indicator that Bernie would have beaten Trump?... in other words... what makes you think he would have won?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I think there's a misconception by establishment Dems that people who consider themselves independent means they are moderate. While that was the case 20 years ago, I don;t think that's the case anymore. I think with social media and the information blitz things have changed and the majority of the people that claim to be independent do so because they are fatigued, not moderate. They want something different to break what they believe is the crippling status quo. That's why they went Trump in 2016. It is why they'd go Warren or Bernie in 2020....but they won't vote in primaries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Its not illogical. Social media absolutely changes things and its frankly batshit fcuking bananas to say it doesn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Oh bullshit. I'm providing logic you guys are providing feels. Why are the same? Please explain why the vastly different processes of primary and general elections are same other than your guys bullshit feelings?
    Remember, your argument now, is that independents are all over the map, not concentrated Bernie voters.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Did this thread jump back in time to discuss all this irrelevant Bernie stuff or something?

    I thought people had moved on from the primaries.
    Never! These Bernie supporters are not about issues... just reactionaries.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Saying they are different means little when basing your entire argument on the fact that the results of one will match the other.
    It’s literally better than the nothing you presented. It is an indicator and those that do treat it as empirical, are still more justified than ‘social media changes things’.

    You have gotten it in your head that getting voters to turn out to vote once in the general is the same as getting people registering with a specific party, following the primaries, and going out to vote in the primaries during a pandemic.
    There are only 9 states out of 50 that have closed primaries, 7 more have partially closed primaries:
    https://www.ncsl.org/research/electi...ary-types.aspx

    Bernie won Nevada, a closed state.
    Bernie won Utah, a partially closed state.
    Bernie won Connecticut, a closed state.

    Half of Bernie’s won states came from the very closed states or partially closed states, that require registration to a political party. Bernie won 3 of the 16 states with closed/partially closed elections and 3 of 34 that were open. As in, Bernie had a better, not worse, chance to win in closed elections.

    https://www.cnn.com/election/2020/pr...s-and-caucuses

    Edit: Something else that’s fun... Bernie won WA primaries in 2016, when they were closed, but lost to Biden when they were open in 2020.

    Edit 2: Just to undercut the possible reaction to the above... If you claim that Trump supporters voted Biden in open elections, I have a shit ton of Trump quotes telling his supporters to do exactly that... but... for Bernie, not Biden. It doesn’t look like it worked in any direction...
    Last edited by Felya; 2020-09-20 at 01:41 PM.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  8. #14748
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Yeah, it is... you expect me to read this and not think it’s vindictive? lol
    I expect you to read it an not cut out everything else I write.

    /ignored
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    "That's my style; I like to kick 'em when they're down!"
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  9. #14749
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    I expect you to read it an not cut out everything else I write.
    Why? Why should I bother with a post that starts with antagonism, while trying to argue that it’s not vindictive? I read it, there is no point to discuss splitting hairs between what you consider catering and punishing. Because both of those are the same thing, with a different subjective spin. Why delve into a quagmire of subjectivity, when the first sentence shows a more objective perspective?

    /ignored
    I don’t ignore anyone... /flex

    I don’t get emotional... robots 4 life...

    Edit: I think the problem with Medicare for All, is that it’s not presented as catering to the right. It shouldn’t have been defined as a far left ideology. There is a very simple and obvious way to present it, but the all part of the name, wasn’t expressed effectively, letting Trump redefine it and run against it.
    Last edited by Felya; 2020-09-20 at 02:01 PM.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  10. #14750
    Quote Originally Posted by Eviscero View Post
    Kay. So at best he wasn't inspiring enough to get his supporters to take the necessary steps to support him beyond making tiny donations.

    Maybe Bernie could have taken a few minutes away from repeating the exact same message every time he took to the stage to instruct folks on how to switch affiliations to vote for him.

    He lost. Accept it and vote Biden if you ever want to be able to vote again.
    Are you incapable of reading?

    I voted Sanders/Clinton in 2016, and will be voting Biden in 2020. My state's primary was rescheduled from March to July so I didn't even vote because Bernie had already conceded the nomination.

    People in this thread are bickering about whether Bernie would have been the better candidate.

    Group A: But Bernie drives voter turnout among atypical voters!
    Group B: But he couldn't improve turnout in the primary!
    Me: Primaries and generals are very different electorates, so performance in one is not necessarily indicative of performance in the other. Also, we have no reliable data to suggest how the unaffiliated electorate might have voted in the general, because it is notoriously difficult to sample that electorate when polling.

    But sure, I'm a whiny Bernie voter whose just yelling "you can't predict the future!".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Did this thread jump back in time to discuss all this irrelevant Bernie stuff or something?

    I thought people had moved on from the primaries.
    The left destroying itself is a time honored tradition in American politics. Why would we ever move on from that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Woods View Post
    LOL never change guys. I guess you won't because conservatism.
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    Frogs are the real threat because they will kill us by drowning us just because we stabbed them with our poisonous stingers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    I do care what people on this forum think of me.
    VOTE

  11. #14751
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiganon View Post
    Are you incapable of reading?

    I voted Sanders/Clinton in 2016, and will be voting Biden in 2020. My state's primary was rescheduled from March to July so I didn't even vote because Bernie had already conceded the nomination.

    People in this thread are bickering about whether Bernie would have been the better candidate.

    Group A: But Bernie drives voter turnout among atypical voters!
    Group B: But he couldn't improve turnout in the primary!
    Me: Primaries and generals are very different electorates, so performance in one is not necessarily indicative of performance in the other. Also, we have no reliable data to suggest how the unaffiliated electorate might have voted in the general, because it is notoriously difficult to sample that electorate when polling.

    But sure, I'm a whiny Bernie voter whose just yelling "you can't predict the future!".
    And the sad part is that their claim is false. Bernie really improved turnout in the primary. The guy went from a nobody 2 election cycles ago, to 5% in 2016, to 30% in 2020. If that isn't improving voter turnout, I don't know what the fuck you'd call it. Heck, people were starting to wonder if Biden was going to pull it out until the eastern, older, black vote really hit.

    Would Bernie have done well in the general? Maybe. It's not like Trump and Biden are really going head to head right now, they're both circling their own wagons and shoring up internal support and we're a little over a month out from election day. It's kinda a weird election cycle in that regard.

    Bernie has very aggressive rhetoric, personally, I think a lot of people are tired of that from Trump, and it wouldn't serve Bernie well. However, their choice would still remain: Trump or *blue guy*. Biden is very much a "lets pretend the 2016 election didn't happen and turn back the clock" candidate. Which I think is unhealthy for our country but clearly what people want. *insert argument about what people want not being what they need*.

    I expect Biden to get very little done, but not because of Republican blockage, but because his platform is not heavy on "doing things". More of a "hold down the fort" and "new coat of paint" platform.

    Bernies was clearly more of a "we need to do some serious heavy lifting", and the level of voter fatigue at this point is too high to really get people motivated for that kind of work. And it would be work. Hard work. Needed work, but still work. And too many people are just too damn tired. That doesn't mean the work doesn't need to be done, it just means we need a mental health day. Which is fine, provided we don't allow ourselves to forget that the work still needs to be done.

    In the end, I think Bernie would not have done as well in the election, not because he can't motivate people to vote, he certainly can, and moderates, like progressives, would still be left with the choice of Trump or *blue guy*. But because he's not offering people a hug and a cup of coco. He's whipping their backs to stop being a bunch of lazy fucks and fix the country. And people are tired.

    And that remains, ultimately, my biggest concern with Biden: will Biden allow people(either through intent or inaction) to forget that the work still needs to be done?
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    "That's my style; I like to kick 'em when they're down!"
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  12. #14752
    As an aside, I’d be really excited if Bernie had that record plus he was 59, since it would give him a long run to build even more support. But as it stands, this was his last shot at the Presidency. If someone like AOC can pull the same support over time, it’ll be a great win for progressivism.

  13. #14753
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    What is your indicator that Bernie would have beaten Trump?... in other words... what makes you think he would have won?

    Remember, your argument now, is that independents are all over the map, not concentrated Bernie voters.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Never! These Bernie supporters are not about issues... just reactionaries.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It’s literally better than the nothing you presented. It is an indicator and those that do treat it as empirical, are still more justified than ‘social media changes things’.



    There are only 9 states out of 50 that have closed primaries, 7 more have partially closed primaries:
    https://www.ncsl.org/research/electi...ary-types.aspx

    Bernie won Nevada, a closed state.
    Bernie won Utah, a partially closed state.
    Bernie won Connecticut, a closed state.

    Half of Bernie’s won states came from the very closed states or partially closed states, that require registration to a political party. Bernie won 3 of the 16 states with closed/partially closed elections and 3 of 34 that were open. As in, Bernie had a better, not worse, chance to win in closed elections.

    https://www.cnn.com/election/2020/pr...s-and-caucuses

    Edit: Something else that’s fun... Bernie won WA primaries in 2016, when they were closed, but lost to Biden when they were open in 2020.

    Edit 2: Just to undercut the possible reaction to the above... If you claim that Trump supporters voted Biden in open elections, I have a shit ton of Trump quotes telling his supporters to do exactly that... but... for Bernie, not Biden. It doesn’t look like it worked in any direction...
    I'm going to explain this one last time for you. Please read it slowly, get an adult close to you to help if necessary, because I'm pretty sick of you willfully misconstruing my stance.

    Part 1: Independents are not moderate.
    I say this because if they were moderate they would NOT have voted for Trump in 2016. He was an extreme right candidate espousing extreme right ideals. He didn't even moderately grab someone by the pussy. Hillary on the other hand, is the walking embodiment of moderate. So, if these moderates are just so moderate why did they not vote the very moderate moderate into office?

    This clearly shows that the independents that flipped the 2016 are either.....far right which is not moderate or over the status quo (which Hillary also perfectly embodied) which is also, get this....not moderate. Sure, I'm letting hope tell me they were just over the status quo and not far right shitbags, but its hope based in reality and logic. Either way, they very clearly were not moderate.

    (Don't read further until you show the adult helping you, you that you've grasped what I'm saying in Part 1. Maybe take a quiz?)

    Part 2: People are fatigued with the status quo, due in large part to social media and information overload.
    Most people are not that invested in politics. They care enough to vote in the general but not enough to follow it before then. To them it is an unknowable quagmire filled with instances where there's no clear right and wrong. Social media and the internet giving platforms for all the angry voices just further exacerbates that issue. They thought, leading up to 2016, that both sides were basically the same, like two football teams in a game and the people arguing over it were no different than those teams fans. They aren't happy with the economy or the derision or just the overall state of things. They don't feel like their choice matters, as it seemed it was likely going to come down to Typical Politician A vs. Typical Politician B. Then came Trump and they and we laughed. Then came Hillary, Typical Politician A. Then they saw it was Typical Politician A vs. Not Typical Politician B. Then they said fuck it, and voted Not Typical Politician B. (Or you know your explanation, where they just decided to vote for Nazis because they are moderate or some shit that makes sense to only you.....)

    (Again don't read further until you show the adult helping you, you that you've grasped what I'm saying in Part 2. Maybe use flash cards?)

    Part 3: Trump's massive Covid failure gives Biden a chance.
    Before Covid, the average person wasn't really noticing a massive change in their life. Their quality of life hadn't;t really changed all that much. The political discourse grew across all media though which would only further the fatigue they felt in 2016. So after 2016, when the independents gave Trump a victory due to not being the same old same old.....Dems decided to nominate....Typical Politician C, thereby completely missing the lesson they should have learned 4 years prior. So these fatigued independents whose live wasn't all that different from 2016 to pre covid 2020, are staring at Dems who just made the same decision they made before...why would these independents vote any differently at that point? They likely wouldn't have. But then came covid, and the death tolls and economy point to a fucking apocalypse. That changes minds....hopefully.

    (Again don't read further until you show the adult helping you, you that you've grasped what I'm saying in Part 3. Maybe get a second tutor?)

    Part 4: Bernie or my actual choice overall Warren, could beat Trump but Dems voted safe in the primaries.
    Dems are notoriously cowards politically. Most dems actually wanted Berni/Warren level plans and programs but voted Biden because they, like you, stupidly think dependents still equal moderate. But if one of them or even Pete had gotten the nom, then this election would be about Not Typical Politician A Whose A Functioning Adult vs. Not Typical Politician B Whose Not A Functioning Adult. By going this route, Trump's incompetence comes into play because these independents weren't going further down the list then Question #1: Is this candidate a typical politician?


    (Don't respond until you show the adult helping you, you that you've grasped what I'm saying in Parts 1-4. Maybe increase blood flow to your thinking bone?)

    FTR: Just so you and Cubby know, I'm voting Biden without hesitation or compunction. I actually wanted Biden over Obama in their 2008 primary because Biden is actually an excellent strategist with foreign affairs and I knew little of Obama.

    [Infraction]
    Last edited by Rozz; 2020-09-20 at 04:20 PM. Reason: Minor Trolling
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


  14. #14754
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    The MF has been impeached. Now he needs to GTFO.

  15. #14755
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Saying they are different means little when basing your entire argument on the fact that the results of one will match the other.

    You have gotten it in your head that getting voters to turn out to vote once in the general is the same as getting people registering with a specific party, following the primaries, and going out to vote in the primaries during a pandemic.
    Yes, I have, so has everyone else. Because it's true. It's straightforward logic. If a candidate generates enthusiasm, you will see it in the Primary, regardless of differing processes - either with different primary votes or the General. We didn't with Bernie - so claiming it would happen in the General doesn't follow any reasonable argument.

    You have yet to post any reasoning aside from "Primary elections are different from General elections, therefore what I say is true!", which has no basis in this conversation. Different or not, enthusiasm transcends the processes and groups of people.

    Your original claim that "Bernie would bring out the vote" is entirely unfounded, by your own standards, and we saw that in this years Primary ballots. The claim is unfounded because Bernie did not bring out the vote.

    If you have something to add that you haven't yet, please do - I would be delighted to see numbers or hear a separate argument other than the "they are different" position. Otherwise, I'll assume we're done here.

  16. #14756
    Quote Originally Posted by omerome View Post
    This and the replies following it are funnier than they should be.

    Someone, please, tell me again how people like this totally care about the country and the people in it.

  17. #14757
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    This and the replies following it are funnier than they should be.

    Someone, please, tell me again how people like this totally care about the country and the people in it.
    People like those literally and sadly, I do mean literally wouldn't mind watching the world burn. I don't understand how they can think. Biden isn't many of our #1s, but he's the only one who can start the process to give us the things we do want. Cause we sure as hell ain't getting it with four more years of the resident in the White House.

    This is what happens if Biden isn't elected:

    M4A? Hah!
    Education reform? With a man who can't spell or thinks we are going to Nars? And appointed a woman who wants to destroy Public Education funding? And has no experience in education herself? Think again.
    Racial justice? The administration who refuses to even say that Black Lives Matter?!
    A fair wage to workers? ROFL.
    Last edited by omerome; 2020-09-20 at 05:01 PM.
    The MF has been impeached. Now he needs to GTFO.

  18. #14758
    Quote Originally Posted by omerome View Post
    People like those literally and sadly, I do mean literally wouldn't mind watching the world burn. I don't understand how they can think. Biden isn't many of our #1s, but he's the only one who can start the process to give us the things we do want. Cause we sure as hell ain't getting it with four more years of the resident in the White House.
    Exactly. What a shame people wilfully choose not to see it.

  19. #14759
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    As an aside, I’d be really excited if Bernie had that record plus he was 59, since it would give him a long run to build even more support. But as it stands, this was his last shot at the Presidency. If someone like AOC can pull the same support over time, it’ll be a great win for progressivism.
    GOP thinks there are 4 women in DNC that are the biggest threat to them... AOC is the biggest threat, if you judge by GOP action. They are building her to be their next Hillary.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by omerome View Post
    My god... that’s a solid tact... awesome!

    Edit: Quoted the wrong one...
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  20. #14760
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Yes, I have, so has everyone else. Because it's true. It's straightforward logic. If a candidate generates enthusiasm, you will see it in the Primary, regardless of differing processes - either with different primary votes or the General. We didn't with Bernie - so claiming it would happen in the General doesn't follow any reasonable argument.

    You have yet to post any reasoning aside from "Primary elections are different from General elections, therefore what I say is true!", which has no basis in this conversation. Different or not, enthusiasm transcends the processes and groups of people.

    Your original claim that "Bernie would bring out the vote" is entirely unfounded, by your own standards, and we saw that in this years Primary ballots. The claim is unfounded because Bernie did not bring out the vote.

    If you have something to add that you haven't yet, please do - I would be delighted to see numbers or hear a separate argument other than the "they are different" position. Otherwise, I'll assume we're done here.
    None of this is true.

    Not your summation of my point. Not the recount of the arguments I've made. Not the reasoning behind your stance.

    And you're doing all that while demanding I give more reasoning (which I have) while providing literally nothing more than, "they are the same just trust me". You have not in any size shape or form explained why they are indicative of the general. You've discounted every factual reasoning I've given, like the pool is diluted in the primaries to the strategy dems traditionally use to vote in primaries, to even the simple fact the enthusiasm Warren or Bernie would create would be from independents who don't vote in primaries with.....nothing. Not a single solitary fact, piece of logic, piece of reasoning, sliver of evidence...nothing. You think getting voter's to vote means they either participate in the whole entire process from debate to primary to general election or they don;t vote at all. You have no concept or will to conceit that that vast majority of people in this country don't pay attention to politics, and getting them to vote in the general is different then getting them to join a party and vote in the primaries. Its such an obvious and ridiculous blindspot for you, it must be intentional.
    Last edited by Bodakane; 2020-09-20 at 05:22 PM.
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


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