1. #14781
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    It is what it is. For whatever reason, Democratic voters did not show up in 2016. Hopefully, this and the last 4 years remind them that there are consequences to elections.
    I don't know why we're trying to continue to beat this dead horse when the answer is obvious to anyone with a fully developed cerebrum.

    1-Hillary was a guaranteed win
    2-People weren't enthused with Hillary
    3-Donald Trump seemed like a joke
    4-Donald Trump's message was simplistic enough for even the dumbest simpletons to get behind (Build the Wall, Drain the Swamp, Lock her Up)

    The result was a campaign that had the aid of foreign assistance on social media (and possibly at the polls) to deliver Trump a win by ~100,000 votes in a few key areas to get an EC victory while losing the Pop vote by millions.

    Hillary ran a bad campaign when she didn't even bother to stop at some of these places were she lost be a few thousand votes.

  2. #14782
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    If it’s any conciliation, note that in his reply to me, he said Biden was the safe choice. Consider what it means to your argument.
    I also saw his longer post that...um...wasn't well received. At some point, people just can't admit when they are wrong. I guess the big picture is that he'll be voting for Biden. At this point it's all that matters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Just saw another Biden ad attacking insurance companies... Jets vs 49ers... the way the game is going, healthcare is very apt. Bosa down... even as a seahawk fan and not a fan of his politics, what a stud... that sucks...
    Interesting ad and tact by Biden.

  3. #14783
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Better bring a lot of money. Real estate is expensive. Not SF expensive. However, Auckland is about SD expensive.
    I have a house 10 miles from downtown Seattle... I own around 50% of it... Biden better win... lol

    (The owner had a medical emergency, had to sell ASAP and we didn’t bother contacting the agent, went there minutes after it came on sale. Didn’t fuck around... moved in 2 weeks later. The deal was insane... I never met the owners, but I really hope they are doing great. All of the disability features in the house are just amazing for issues the gf is having.)

    Fuck drawback to moving out of US... I’d have to marry my gf... I don’t know... we’ve only been together for over 20 years... I just haven’t made up my mind... lol... we just don’t give a fuck about marriage...
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  4. #14784
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I also saw his longer post that...um...wasn't well received. At some point, people just can't admit when they are wrong. I guess the big picture is that he'll be voting for Biden. At this point it's all that matters.
    You can address that post to me.
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


  5. #14785
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    No I didn't. I said Dems believe he's the safe choice based on their wrongheaded notion that independents are moderate. But yeah, keep making shit up post after post.
    Sure... the distinction is irrelevant to what I’m saying...
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  6. #14786
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    /sigh

    No, you continue to not understand my point. Listen:

    If a candidate is going to "bring out the vote", then we will see, OVERALL, an increased number of people voting, in whatever category of person, during the Primary - in relation to the Primary itself (meaning not in relation to the General). Bernie was supposed to bring out the young vote, but the young vote did not show up for the Primary, so the idea that Bernie would "bring out the vote" in the General, is factually/objectively/logically wrong.

    Explain to me how that is wrong, according to you.
    The whole thing is super shoddy even if you accept their arguments

    Like, "Bernie would have totally brought new voters to the base, there is no evidence of this just trust"

  7. #14787
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Sure... the distinction is irrelevant to what I’m saying...
    At this point, I'm just trying to get you to accurately recount my points instead of the bullshit you've been pulling.
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


  8. #14788
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    It is just wrong and not founded in anything other than your mind.
    You continuing to attack people like this is pretty indicative that you know you're wrong, and just can't admit it. Maybe you could dial back the childish responses and bring it back above board. I'm not going to sit here and eat your shit for much longer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I understand your point.
    You really don't. Or at least you haven't explained it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Increasing voter turnout can happen in just the general election. There is nothing anywhere that says it must happen in the primaries other than your head.
    Did you read that before you posted? Seriously, not being facetious here - your argument is literally coming out of your head/feels, and you're claiming that your head/feels is "truth", without any cites or links or anything outside your words - which have been consistently wrong in the logic and objective data. Keep in mind, my position comes from DATA.

    REMEMBER - we're looking at the numbers from this past Primary along with others in the past. What are you looking at? Are you using any evidence? Remember, evidence is a fact, not a position you lay out with words.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    You still haven't given anything in the way of a fact or logic or solid reasoning as to why you think that.
    So you're saying that a candidate can fail to increase voter turnout in the Primary (i.e. enthusiasm), but yet somehow increase the turnout in the General? I've posted both logic and reasoning, along with the empirical numbers from past elections, to show this is wrong.

    What have you posted beyond your "feels" again? We must have missed it, could you put the links up again, please?

  9. #14789
    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    The whole thing is super shoddy even if you accept their arguments

    Like, "Bernie would have totally brought new voters to the base, there is no evidence of this just trust"
    My argument wasn't that they he'd have brought to voters to the base. My argument is that independents would be more likely to vote for him or Warren over Trump if covid hadn't happened.

    I'm noticing a trend here......
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


  10. #14790
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    At this point, I'm just trying to get you to accurately recount my points instead of the bullshit you've been pulling.
    I am... if I don’t specify, you can assume that I believed the specifics were unnecessary. If you disagree, feel free to point it out. But, I’m watching a game, so don’t take skipping posts or taking a while to reply personally... I also got to cook a chicken soon... saying it, because it’s both funny and true... I got a chicken to cook...
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  11. #14791
    I am Murloc! Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    Don’t for a minute pretend Democrats wouldn’t do the same thing if given the chance. In fact they tried in Obama’s last year with Merrick Garland. Maybe Ginsburg should have retired early on in Obama’s second term and this wouldn’t be an issue for Democrats.
    Missing the forest for the trees here. Yes, Trump should fill RBGs seat, it is an opening that happened during Trump's term in office. BUT, the GOP changed those rules with Merrick Garland, and stuffed Gorsuch instead. Now they want to pretend that rule change never happened, because it doesn't benefit them this time.

    That is the entire point here, they make rules they won't abide by themselves, because it has nothing to do with good government or "The will of the people", it has everything to do with power. The GOP is trying to get both Scalia's seat and Ginsberg's seat, and that is bullshit no matter how you slice it.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  12. #14792
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    The whole thing is super shoddy even if you accept their arguments

    Like, "Bernie would have totally brought new voters to the base, there is no evidence of this just trust"
    I would argue it’s worse. If the far left shows they are unreliable voters, democrats have to go right. They won’t have a choice.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  13. #14793
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    You continuing to attack people like this is pretty indicative that you know you're wrong, and just can't admit it. Maybe you could dial back the childish responses and bring it back above board. I'm not going to sit here and eat your shit for much longer.




    You really don't. Or at least you haven't explained it.




    Did you read that before you posted? Seriously, not being facetious here - your argument is literally coming out of your head/feels, and you're claiming that your head/feels is "truth", without any cites or links or anything outside your words - which have been consistently wrong in the logic and objective data. Keep in mind, my position comes from DATA.

    REMEMBER - we're looking at the numbers from this past Primary along with others in the past. What are you looking at? Are you using any evidence? Remember, evidence is a fact, not a position you lay out with words.




    So you're saying that a candidate can fail to increase voter turnout in the Primary (i.e. enthusiasm), but yet somehow increase the turnout in the General? I've posted both logic and reasoning, along with the empirical numbers from past elections, to show this is wrong.

    What have you posted beyond your "feels" again? We must have missed it, could you put the links up again, please?
    That wasn't a childish response, what you're calling a fact is only a fact in your head. You haven't provided anything that shows this to be the case. I've said that a 100 times now. I'm fairly certain what is happening is that you are just skimming my posts and arguing with me about what you skimmed.

    I've given a long detailed explanation behind my thoughts numerous times now, you don;t address them, you just say they are wrong because voter turnout only happens in the primaries first, which isn't true at all.

    I am actually open to being wrong. But you have to prove it and you haven't. You haven't even provided a cogent argument let alone facts or reasoning as to why you think getting votes in a general election is predicated on converting independents into a people that join a party and vote in the primaries.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I am... if I don’t specify, you can assume that I believed the specifics were unnecessary. If you disagree, feel free to point it out. But, I’m watching a game, so don’t take skipping posts or taking a while to reply personally... I also got to cook a chicken soon... saying it, because it’s both funny and true... I got a chicken to cook...
    You're not though. Enjoy your dinner and thank whatever power you believe in Trump fucked up the covid response.
    Last edited by Bodakane; 2020-09-20 at 06:19 PM.
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


  14. #14794
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I am actually open to being wrong. But you have to prove it and you haven't.
    I disagree... It’s why I always try to bring arguments down to a base level. If you can frame it in an equation or have a mathematical representation, it’s the simplest way to show someone disagreeing, being unreasonable.

    Here is another one:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi...in_U.S._states

    As of May 2020, Gallup polling found that 31% of Americans identified as Democrats, 25% identified as Republican, and 40% as Independent. Additionally, polling showed that 50% are either "Democrats or Democratic leaners" and 38% are either "Republicans or Republican leaners" when Independents are asked "do you lean more to the Democratic Party or the Republican Party?"
    Basically, if independents break even, democrats win due to existing majority.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    You're not though. Enjoy your dinner and thank whatever power you believe in Trump fucked up the covid response.
    I’m not going yet... at best during the second game...

    I don’t understand why you think covid is disproportionately helping any democrats. I think the difference between it helping a generic democrat and a specific democrat, would have nearly the same results.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  15. #14795
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    That wasn't a childish response, what you're calling a fact is only a fact in your head. You haven't provided anything that shows this to be the case. I've said that a 100 times now. I'm fairly certain what is happening is that you are just skimming my posts and arguing with me about what you skimmed.

    I've given a long detailed explanation behind my thoughts numerous times now, you don;t address them, you just say they are wrong because voter turnout only happens in the primaries first, which isn't true at all.

    I am actually open to being wrong. But you have to prove it and you haven't. You haven't even provided a cogent argument let alone facts or reasoning as to why you think getting votes in a general election is predicated on converting independents into a people that join a party and vote in the primaries.
    We've provided links showing voter turnout from past elections and primaries. You continue to argue with those facts with things from your head. You continue to ignore that Bernie didn't bring out the young vote this year, as everyone said he would.

    I've addressed them precisely. Your point continues to be the logical (and factual) fallacy that voter enthusiasm for a candidate doesn't happen in the Primary, but only in the General.

    Feel free to lay out, with FACT and CITES, how that position is wrong. So far, you have not.
    Last edited by cubby; 2020-09-20 at 06:32 PM.

  16. #14796
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I disagree... It’s why I always try to bring arguments down to a base level. If you can frame it in an equation or have a mathematical representation, it’s the simplest way to show someone disagreeing, being unreasonable.

    Here is another one:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi...in_U.S._states



    Basically, if independents break even, democrats win due to existing majority.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I’m not going yet... at best during the second game...

    I don’t understand why you think covid is disproportionately helping any democrats. I think the difference between it helping a generic democrat and a specific democrat, would have nearly the same results.
    1. And yet in 2016 they didn't win did they......

    2. I'm not saying covid wouldn't help a Warren or Bernie. There you go again misconstruing my argument. You have to be doing this on purpose. I'm saying Biden needs that help to beat Trump and don't think Bernie or Warren would need it.
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


  17. #14797
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    The whole thing is super shoddy even if you accept their arguments

    Like, "Bernie would have totally brought new voters to the base, there is no evidence of this just trust"
    Exactly - that's the argument he's trying to make, and there is neither evidence nor reasoning saying it would happen.

  18. #14798
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    We've provided links showing voter turnout from past elections and primaries. You continue to argue with those facts with things from your head. You continue to ignore that Bernie didn't bring out the young vote this year, as everyone said he would.

    I've addressed them precisely. Your point continues to be the logical (and factual) fallacy that voter enthusiasm for a candidate doesn't happen in the Primary, but only in the General.

    Feel free to lay out, with FACT and CITES, how that position is wrong. So far, you have not.

    I'm not ignoring anything. I didn't see where you posted any facts. Where are these facts that prove turning independents into a primary participating member of a party is the only valid goal?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Exactly - that's the argument he's trying to make, and there is neither evidence nor reasoning saying it would happen.

    Again, no the fuck it isn;t my argument.

    Literally to a person, you guys are straight misrepresenting my point.
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


  19. #14799
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    1. And yet in 2016 they didn't win did they...
    Again, in order to make this argument, you have to argue that the status quo now, is the same as before Trump. Something that I think you would disagree with...

    2. I'm not saying covid wouldn't help a Warren or Bernie. There you go again misconstruing my argument. You have to be doing this on purpose. I'm saying Biden needs that help to beat Trump and don't think Bernie or Warren would need it.
    Why didn’t Warren or Bernie need the same help? What do you base this on?

    (By the way, you are literally saying I’m misrepresenting you, to say exactly what I’m saying.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Exactly - that's the argument he's trying to make, and there is neither evidence nor reasoning saying it would happen.
    What can you do...

    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  20. #14800
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I'm not ignoring anything. I didn't see where you posted any facts. Where are these facts that prove turning independents into a primary participating member of a party is the only valid goal?
    Um, NO - that wasn't your fucking argument to me. You said Bernie would bring out the vote better than other candidates. Here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I said Warren or Bernie would bring out the vote in the actual election.
    Still patently, and objectively false. They didn't bring out anyone new to the Primary, factually, and there is no evidence (outside your feels) that they would have done so in the General.

    Please post FACTS and CITES to back up your claim if you disagree. FACT and CITES - not your words. It's clear we disagree on those, so there's no point in continuing to repeat ourselves.

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