1. #15221
    M4A/GND is not a magic bullet & would make little difference in the election anyways.
    most people you talk to about it's reaction is something like, "oh how much will my taxes go up?"

  2. #15222
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    That’s for Medicare For All, without government control. Once you add government control, you get the same split as Obamacare vs Affordable Care Act... have people learned nothing?
    Any Trump voters who think he’ll provide M4A that’s in line with what Bernie or Warren have pitched are living in dreamland.

  3. #15223
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    You need to give them something to show up to vote for. Trying to appeal to Republicans and telling people "we have to vote for the lesser evil to get Trump out" isn't going to get those non-voters to show up for you, and they are who Biden needs to win, not "centrist Independents" or these magical former Republicans that don't exist.
    Worked in the 2018 midterm elections. Was the largest turn out of voters in US midterm election history and the 3rd largest defeat for the republican party.

  4. #15224
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    Any Trump voters who think he’ll provide M4A that’s in line with what Bernie or Warren have pitched are living in dreamland.
    All of these people support M4A:

    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  5. #15225
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobb View Post
    Worked in the 2018 midterm elections. Was the largest turn out of voters in US midterm election history and the 3rd largest defeat for the republican party.
    The midterms are not the same at all as the general election for the president. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

    That’s for Medicare For All, without government control. Once you add government control, you get the same split as Obamacare vs Affordable Care Act... have people learned nothing?
    M4A/GND is not a magic bullet & would make little difference in the election anyways.
    most people you talk to about it's reaction is something like, "oh how much will my taxes go up?"
    You guys said he needs to win over Obama to Trump voters. I linked you information that Obama to Trump voters support M4A, they also hate the ACA, especially the individual mandate.

    What do you think Biden needs to do to win over those Obama to Trump voters? Because he's not winning them over going off his numbers, unless you think he is and have other numbers to back it up?

  6. #15226
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    I linked you information that Obama to Trump voters support M4A, they also hate the ACA, especially the individual mandate.
    Stop it... the polling is very clear, people like Medicare for all, as long as you don’t mention the cost. It doesn’t make sense that a Trump would be running against M4A as an extreme liberal take over, while you claim this support.

    What do you think Biden needs to do to win over those Obama to Trump voters? Because he's not winning them over going off his numbers, unless you think he is and have other numbers to back it up?
    Nothing... It’s time to stop placating Trump voters, as if they are reasonable.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  7. #15227
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/202...nders-n1150691

    This is a good piece on how M4A polling is...complicated, comparing Warren's rollout of her plan that sank her campaign to Sander's plan that was lighter on details in comparison and didn't sink his campaign.

    TLDR: People like vague, general ideas of things. People are less excited when you start getting down to brass tacks about who is paying for what and what happens to folks current plans.

  8. #15228
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Stop it... the polling is very clear, people like Medicare for all, as long as you don’t mention the cost. It doesn’t make sense that a Trump would be running against M4A as an extreme liberal take over, while you claim this support.



    Nothing... It’s time to stop placating Trump voters, as if they are reasonable.
    Okay then what is Biden's plan to win? So far he's only been trying to appeal to Republicans/"centrist Independents", and he's polling 5% with Republicans while Trump is leading him by 10 points with Independents.

    Do you think he is going to win without having a lead on Independent voters?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1VK128

    Trump secured the electoral votes of Florida and other close swing states with one percent of the vote or less. With the question of which of the many voter segments made the difference still up for debate, independents are seen as key. Republicans won the independent vote by 7 percentage points in 2016.
    Reuters/Ipsos polling shows independent voters nationally rank healthcare and jobs as their top issues.
    And just for the record, the Green New Deal is a jobs act.

  9. #15229
    Legendary! PresidentElectMilchschake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    Okay then what is Biden's plan to win?
    • You can link an obscure Gleen Greenwald article
    • But you cant link Biden's healthcare proposal

    This is your bias showing.
    Welcome to GEN-OT, have a seat, we'll introduce you to the 23-year-old who will lecture you about how Democrats didn't try hard enough to improve the ACA, and once that's all set up you'll be assigned a socialist who supported Ron Paul up to 2015 to harass you forever.
    "Once bigotry or self-loathing permeate a given community, it is only a matter of time before deep metaphysical significance is assigned to the shape of human skulls."
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  10. #15230
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    Okay then what is Biden's plan to win? So far he's only been trying to appeal to Republicans/"centrist Independents", and he's polling 5% with Republicans while Trump is leading him by 10 points with Independents.
    Really? Is that who running ads during NFL games, that directly attack insurance companies, is supposed to? Are you suggesting Biden needs yo be more like Trump or somehow the opposite, yet attract the same people? If Biden appeals to independent Trump supporters, he will lose Biden supporters. That simple... Independent Trump supporters have their candidate, no reason for Biden to shit on M4A to pull them back...

    Do you think he is going to win without having a lead on Independent voters?
    Yes, because there are far more registered democrats than republicans. Democrats are not the ones that need to adapt Trump tact...

    Edit: How about you defend M4A against GOP attacks, instead of attacking democrats for arguing it can’t pass a GOP Congress?
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  11. #15231
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    • You can link an obscure Gleen Greenwald article
    • But you cant link Biden's healthcare proposal

    This is your bias showing.
    His healthcare proposal is to bring back the individual mandate, which polls really poorly with Obama to Trump voters, moderate Republicans, "centrist Independents", whatever you wanna call them. It's literally the entire reason that Republicans took back the House and Senate under Obama, and probably one of the major reasons cited for people moving from Obama to Trump.

    Yes, because there are far more registered democrats than republicans. Democrats are not the ones that need to adapt Trump tact...
    There are more Independent voters than both, and Trump is leading with Independents by 10 points. So again, what is Biden's plan to win over Independents?

    And almost 90% of Democrats support M4A, along with 60% of Independents and 40% of Republicans, most importantly those super special Obama to Trump voters. Why do you think Democrats will abandon Joe Biden if he supports Medicare for All? Is it not weird to you that supposed moderate Democrats are more opposed to single-payer healthcare than Trump voters?
    Last edited by Flower Milk; 2020-09-22 at 08:19 PM.

  12. #15232
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    His healthcare proposal is to bring back the individual mandate, which polls really poorly with Obama to Trump voters, moderate Republicans, "centrist Independents", whatever you wanna call them. It's literally the entire reason that Republicans took back the House and Senate under Obama, and probably one of the major reasons cited for people moving from Obama to Trump.
    So does increasing taxing for M4A... yet, one has a chance of passing.

    Edit: The point of the mandate is to avoid the dreaded tax increase.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    There are more Independent voters than both, and Trump is leading with Independents by 10 points. So again, what is Biden's plan to win over Independents?
    Uhm... adapt Trump’s healthcare plan? What’s your argument here?

    By the way... what mandate?

    https://joebiden.com/healthcare/#
    The Biden Plan will make health care a right by getting rid of capital gains tax loopholes for the super wealthy. Today, the very wealthy pay a tax rate of just 20% on long-term capital gains. According to the Joint Committee on Taxation, the capital gains and dividends exclusion is the second largest tax expenditure in the entire tax code: $127 billion in fiscal year 2019 alone. As President, Biden will roll back the Trump rate cut for the very wealthy and restore the 39.6% top rate he helped restore when he negotiated an end to the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy in 2012. Biden’s capital gains reform will close the loopholes that allow the super wealthy to avoid taxes on capital gains altogether. The Biden plan will assure those making over $1 million will pay the top rate on capital gains, doubling the capital gains tax rate on the super wealthy.
    Increasing the value of tax credits to lower premiums and extend coverage to more working Americans. Today, families that make between 100% and 400% of the federal poverty level may receive a tax credit to reduce how much they have to pay for health insurance on the individual marketplace. The dollar amount of the financial assistance is calculated to ensure each family does not have to pay more than a certain percentage of their income on a silver (medium generosity) plan. But, these shares of income are too high and silver plans’ deductibles are too high. Additionally, many families making more than 400% of the federal poverty level (about $50,000 for a single person and $100,000 for a family of four), and thus not qualifying for financial assistance, still struggle to afford health insurance. The Biden Plan will help middle class families by eliminating the 400% income cap on tax credit eligibility and lowering the limit on the cost of coverage from 9.86% of income to 8.5%. This means that no family buying insurance on the individual marketplace, regardless of income, will have to spend more than 8.5% of their income on health insurance. Additionally, the Biden Plan will increase the size of tax credits by calculating them based on the cost of a more generous gold plan, rather than a silver plan. This will give more families the ability to afford more generous coverage, with lower deductibles and out-of-pocket costs.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  13. #15233
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    So does increasing taxing for M4A... yet, one has a chance of passing.

    Edit: The point of the mandate is to avoid the dreaded tax increase.
    M4A will actually be cheaper than the ACA and save us money, with the added benefit of everyone in America having healthcare.

    https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-b...ll-saves-money

    The evidence abounds: A "Medicare for All" single-payer system would guarantee comprehensive coverage to everyone in America and save money.

    Christopher Cai and colleagues at three University of California campuses examined 22 studies on the projected cost impact for single-payer health insurance in the United States and reported their findings in a recent paper in PLOS Medicine. Every single study predicted that it would yield net savings over several years. In fact, it’s the only way to rein in health care spending significantly in the U.S.

    All of the studies, regardless of ideological orientation, showed that long-term cost savings were likely. Even the Mercatus Center, a right-wing think tank, recently found about $2 trillion in net savings over 10 years from a single-payer Medicare for All system. Most importantly, everyone in America would have high-quality health care coverage.

  14. #15234
    Legendary! PresidentElectMilchschake's Avatar
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    M4A has become the "Ethics in Journalism" for 2020.

    Hipster Gamergaters doing to politics, what they did for journalism.
    Welcome to GEN-OT, have a seat, we'll introduce you to the 23-year-old who will lecture you about how Democrats didn't try hard enough to improve the ACA, and once that's all set up you'll be assigned a socialist who supported Ron Paul up to 2015 to harass you forever.
    "Once bigotry or self-loathing permeate a given community, it is only a matter of time before deep metaphysical significance is assigned to the shape of human skulls."
    -Lady Foppington

  15. #15235
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    So does increasing taxing for M4A... yet, one has a chance of passing.

    Edit: The point of the mandate is to avoid the dreaded tax increase.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Uhm... adapt Trump’s healthcare plan? What’s your argument here?

    By the way... what mandate?

    https://joebiden.com/healthcare/#
    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/05/joe-...e-penalty.html

    “Yes, I’d bring back the individual mandate,” says the 2020 Democratic presidential hopeful, arguing it would be popular now, “compared to what’s being offered.”
    If you don't even know what the individual mandate penalty is, then no wonder you don't understand why people switched from Obama to Trump lol.

  16. #15236
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    M4A will actually be cheaper than the ACA and save us money, with the added benefit of everyone in America having healthcare.
    You are not making an argument that works here... all of this, it’s preaching to the choir... the problem, is how you are going to convince people that a tax increase, is a good thing? How are you going to convince independents that support Trump, that doing the opposite of Trump is in their best interest?
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  17. #15237
    Legendary! PresidentElectMilchschake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/05/joe-...e-penalty.html



    If you don't even know what the individual mandate penalty is, then no wonder you don't understand why people switched from Obama to Trump lol.
    Using out-of-date sources to obscure context is straight from the Fox News playbook.

    This is some really sad cosplay.
    Welcome to GEN-OT, have a seat, we'll introduce you to the 23-year-old who will lecture you about how Democrats didn't try hard enough to improve the ACA, and once that's all set up you'll be assigned a socialist who supported Ron Paul up to 2015 to harass you forever.
    "Once bigotry or self-loathing permeate a given community, it is only a matter of time before deep metaphysical significance is assigned to the shape of human skulls."
    -Lady Foppington

  18. #15238
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    M4A will actually be cheaper than the ACA and save us money, with the added benefit of everyone in America having healthcare.

    https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-b...ll-saves-money
    We know this. The problem is convincing the rest of America about it.

    Because again, generically there is support for M4A. But when you start getting down to brass tacks about people losing their current plans or potential additional costs (that employers will hopefully eat like many do with health insurance now) support starts getting shakier and shakier. It's one reason why Warren's campaign took a nosedive: She released a plan with more specifics and people freaked out.

    Still trying to find that study from earlier, I could swear it was from a week or so ago but I'm having issues digging up the link.

  19. #15239
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/05/joe-...e-penalty.html

    If you don't even know what the individual mandate penalty is, then no wonder you don't understand why people switched from Obama to Trump lol.
    I linked you his 2020 healthcare plan, which uses taxes from capital gains and rolls back Bush and Trump tax cuts for it. You don’t need to mock me, for using the latest information. You don’t need to mock me, for Biden doing exactly what you asked.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  20. #15240
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    You are not making an argument that works here... all of this, it’s preaching to the choir... the problem, is how you are going to convince people that a tax increase, is a good thing? How are you going to convince independents that support Trump, that doing the opposite of Trump is in their best interest?
    You make the argument in favor of it by explaining to them how Medicare for All works, that is literally what I did as a Bernie volunteer to Trump and Republican voters. It is not impossible, and like I said, Trump voters are more receptive to it in my experience once you explain how it works to them than when I tried to explain it to moderate Democrats. The only resistance to M4A I've ever got has been from moderate Democrats, not Trump supporters. And the reason they always cite is "you can't convince Trump voters to support it".

    https://www.citizen.org/news/trump-c...from-pandemic/

    As more Americans die each day as a result of the cruelty of our for-profit health care system, cities and localities are demanding a change – including areas that voted for President Donald Trump.

    Last Tuesday residents of Peterborough, N.H. – a small rural town located in the Trump-voting Hillsborough County – voted to approve a resolution in favor of Medicare for All. The county board of La Cross County, Wis. – with a population of almost 120,000 – also voted in favor of a similar resolution last week. Last month, Knoxville, Tenn. – located in a heavily red, Trump-supporting congressional district – passed a similar resolution.

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