1. #34841
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I want you to stop and think about the absurdity of choosing a candidate whose sole claim to the role is electability, and when he fails to perform blaming voters for it.

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    I don't really know how to respond to this, basically your premise is that the heavens decreed that Hillary lose the states that she lost, it isn't her fault, and Biden should get a medal for retaking states that shouldn't have been lost in the first place, while failing to gain any of the ground establishment candidates claim they can take.

    The establishment got their pick twice, and both times they failed to perform as they claimed. The end.
    If you don't want to have the conversation, that's fine, but you're making up both sides of the argument now and ignoring everything I actually said about Hillary's loss, with links to the data on conservative Democrats' views on race and gender, and who they ended up voting for, the performance of Sanders vs. Clinton and Sanders vs. Biden, etc. The conventional wisdom that Hillary lost because she's an establishment candidate is belied by, among other things, Joe Biden's win with ~80 million votes, 306 EC votes, and gaining ground with Georgia, Arizona, and Nevada, so it fails and requires a different explanation.
    Last edited by Levelfive; 2020-11-20 at 10:23 AM.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  2. #34842
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopymonster View Post
    But you tie them up in courts for years, costing the person money they can't afford in lawyers fees, ruining them financially.

    I'm love to see a law firm go "You know, go ahead. Talk. We'll represent you, for free."
    i mean cant the prosecutors for the DA represent them on the federal dime? If their witness testimony would help indict?

  3. #34843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deianeira View Post
    i mean cant the prosecutors for the DA represent them on the federal dime? If their witness testimony would help indict?
    Maybe I'm nit picking, not sure it matters, but they would be the defendants, as they'd be the ones being sued for breaking the NDA. I'll totally admit I'm out of my depth on it. As of right now, the Government would be prosecuting since Donald is Resident and Billdo Barr is his bottom.

    Would that make Donnie a Lucky Pierre in the Putin, Don, Billdo sandwich?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  4. #34844
    Oozy Giuliani is about the best nickname I've seen in the last 5 years given to someone in politics.

  5. #34845
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    I think Trump will succeed in trying to steal a state back but Biden will be President.
    Nah. The closest state was Georgia (or the 2nd closest, after Arizona). And it was certified for Biden yesterday

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    So the hand count in GA has ended and Biden still won the state, but Trump isn’t accepting the results, saying they just re-counted all the “illegal” ballots, and failed to check their signatures, despite GA officials saying signatures were already checked previously.
    What Dotardito says or wants =/= reality.
    Forgive my english, as i'm not a native speaker



  6. #34846
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    So the hand count in GA has ended and Biden still won the state, but Trump isn’t accepting the results, saying they just re-counted all the “illegal” ballots, and failed to check their signatures, despite GA officials saying signatures were already checked previously.
    Yes.

    As mentioned before, the envelopes ballots come in are not saved with the envelopes. Trump either knew this, or it's his fault he didn't know this, but it was standard procedure indefinitely. As usual, Trump is trying to change the rules because he's losing, or, he's intentionally muddying the waters -- yes, swamp waters -- to make what's standard seem rigged.

    And just a reminder to anyone who wants to back Trump's behavior on this -- where are Trump's taxes? It's completely standard for candidates to show their taxes, to prove they're doing nothing corrupt or wrong. And he never did. Trump has a history of intentionally breaking accepted norms to benefit himself. This is more of the same.

  7. #34847
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    If you don't want to have the conversation, that's fine, but you're making up both sides of the argument now and ignoring everything I actually said about Hillary's loss, with links to the data on conservative Democrats' views on race and gender, and who they ended up voting for, the performance of Sanders vs. Clinton and Sanders vs. Biden, etc. The conventional wisdom that Hillary lost because she's an establishment candidate is belied by, among other things, Joe Biden's win with ~80 million votes, 306 EC votes, and gaining ground with Georgia, Arizona, and Nevada, so it fails and requires a different explanation.
    The fact that there was a historic turnout overall after a historic clusterfuck of mishandling of a historic pandemic kinda destroys your point.

    1. If primaries matter, then Sanders should have been the VP nom and not a person who won precisely zero delegates.

    2. Many progressive down ballot measures passed, even in red states.

    3. Since the battle is for the independents and you guys think they are moderate, why did Trump win 2016? He wasn’t moderate at all. He was far right then and has drifted further right now.

  8. #34848
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    So the hand count in GA has ended and Biden still won the state, but Trump isn’t accepting the results, saying they just re-counted all the “illegal” ballots, and failed to check their signatures, despite GA officials saying signatures were already checked previously.
    And this is what it all boils down to: he will not accept a result where he doesn't win. Fair election or not... doesn't matter.

  9. #34849
    Dunno about vote fraud in US (im from EU and curious about election results, bcuz how influential USA is in global politics) and I know, that mmo-c is left-leaning... But dont you think, that crap like doxxing your kids is kinda too much? I can understand now why they rescind their statemend about vote certification.

    -snip-

    [Infraction]
    Last edited by Rozz; 2020-11-20 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Minor Trolling

  10. #34850
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    So the hand count in GA has ended and Biden still won the state, but Trump isn’t accepting the results, saying they just re-counted all the “illegal” ballots, and failed to check their signatures, despite GA officials saying signatures were already checked previously.


    this video is from a couple weeks before the election. Trump never accepts results, he can win and still not accept it.

  11. #34851
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulz1 View Post
    Dunno about vote fraud in US (im from EU and curious about election results, bcuz how influential USA is in global politics) and I know, that mmo-c is left-leaning... But dont you think, that crap like doxxing your kids is kinda too much? I can understand now why they rescind their statemend about vote certification.

    -snip-
    They changed their vote, because they were afraid of a random “democrat” on Twitter, and not disenfranchisement of millions of people? Do you think those people would be upset?

    Edit: Governor of Michigan had a kidnapping plot and a murder plot by Trump supporters, foiled by multiple arrests. Yet, she had no fear in issuing mandates to help people of Michigan, without fear... without trying to disenfranchise voters... while the president of US is encouraging those wanting her dead, instead of inviting them to the White House. Strange... very... strange...
    Last edited by Rozz; 2020-11-20 at 01:30 PM.
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  12. #34852
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    The fact that there was a historic turnout overall after a historic clusterfuck of mishandling of a historic pandemic kinda destroys your point.

    1. If primaries matter, then Sanders should have been the VP nom and not a person who won precisely zero delegates.

    2. Many progressive down ballot measures passed, even in red states.

    3. Since the battle is for the independents and you guys think they are moderate, why did Trump win 2016? He wasn’t moderate at all. He was far right then and has drifted further right now.
    How does it destroy my point? If nothing else, this election has taught me that we have vastly more appalling people than I realized. The calls are coming from inside the country, but that actually underscores my point about Hillary's loss / Trump's win, that it was primarily motivated by status threat, and I've linked several different types of articles and papers that demonstrate as much, but am willing to do so again. My point about comparing the primaries and the states Biden re-took is that it puts a lie to the idea that the issue is establishment candidates, or policy. Here's another way we know Democrats are terrible at politics: not only are we right on the issues, but a majority of the country agrees with us, and we STILL have ~gestures broadly~. (It's like that line in Thank You for Smoking where the tobacco guy says, "They're cool, they're available, and they're addictive, the job is practically done for you.") You and I have had this discussion before, but there are very, very few actual independents, so I disagree strongly that the battle is for them at all. The "moderates" are mostly Democrats, and the conservative Democrats think an awful lot like Republicans on issues of race and gender.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  13. #34853
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    How does it destroy my point? If nothing else, this election has taught me that we have vastly more appalling people than I realized. The calls are coming from inside the country, but that actually underscores my point about Hillary's loss / Trump's win, that it was primarily motivated by status threat, and I've linked several different types of articles and papers that demonstrate as much, but am willing to do so again. My point about comparing the primaries and the states Biden re-took is that it puts a lie to the idea that the issue is establishment candidates, or policy. Here's another way we know Democrats are terrible at politics: not only are we right on the issues, but a majority of the country agrees with us, and we STILL have ~gestures broadly~. (It's like that line in Thank You for Smoking where the tobacco guy says, "They're cool, they're available, and they're addictive, the job is practically done for you.") You and I have had this discussion before, but there are very, very few actual independents, so I disagree strongly that the battle is for them at all. The "moderates" are mostly Democrats, and the conservative Democrats think an awful lot like Republicans on issues of race and gender.
    No. The mishandling of pandemic coupled with the sheer hatred towards Trump that many of us feel is what drove this election. No Covid, no Biden win.

    The Dems would have got similar numbers no matter which candidate was up there, thanks to 250,000+ dead and Trump being the worst piece of shit ever.

  14. #34854
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    No. The mishandling of pandemic coupled with the sheer hatred towards Trump that many of us feel is what drove this election. No Covid, no Biden win.

    The Dems would have got similar numbers no matter which candidate was up there, thanks to 250,000+ dead and Trump being the worst piece of shit ever.
    I'm going to disagree again--I don't think a female candidate would have beaten Trump; I don't think a black candidate who was not a transcendent superstar (or maybe even if they were) would have beaten Trump.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  15. #34855
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    The Dems would have got similar numbers no matter which candidate was up there, thanks to 250,000+ dead and Trump being the worst piece of shit ever.
    It's s shame Trump had to kill 250,000 Americans before they realized he was the worst piece of shit. At least they figured it out eventually.

    On topic: Axios goes into detail of...well, just read it.

    Trump is on an island

    Most of President Trump's closest advisers have completely distanced themselves from his legal effort and are avoiding his lawyers to avoid being swept into their courtroom dramas.

    Some of the president's advisers act like they think he can still overturn the election results — because they remain on the payroll and don't have another choice. But talk to them privately, and many say Rudy Giuliani and his team are on a dead-end path.

    The true believers are Giuliani and his sidekicks — Jenna Ellis and Sidney Powell — and not many others. Even Jared and Ivanka think this is going nowhere, people who’ve spoken to them told Axios.

    Some administration officials say it’s borderline impossible to have a serious policy conversation these days without Trump turning it into a rant about the Dominion voting machine conspiracy.

    Most hardcore Trump sources have psychologically bailed, and are just waiting out the storm.

    Top Trump campaign officials tell Axios the legal team's biggest problem is that it doesn't have a clear strategy. Thursday's news conference meltdown is Exhibit A.

    The campaign still has a daily conference call with communications director Tim Murtaugh, battleground director Nick Trainer and lawyers Matt Morgan, Justin Clark and Ellis. Kushner joins occasionally.

    Giuliani and Powell aren't invited.

    The near-universal opinion: In his efforts to “help,” Giuliani could not have done more harm to Trump.

    His debate prep fueled the president's over-the-top antics in his first face-off with Joe Biden.

    The former New York mayor ruined their carefully planned Wall Street Journal piece about Tony Bobulinski — an ex-business partner of Hunter Biden — by first giving the New York Post a hard drive containing alleged files from Biden's laptop.

    Giuliani asked the Trump campaign to pay him an eye-catching $20,000 daily fee for his legal services.

    And now, he's litigating a case rooted in conspiracies: Powell is alleging that voting machines used in the U.S. were hijacked with software designed to keep the late Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez in power.

    Trump, meanwhile, has remained adamant that these legal fights continue, despite his top advisers — including campaign manager Bill Stepien and deputy Justin Clark — privately outlining what the "options for success" are, sources familiar with their conversations tell Axios.

    One person who recently met with Trump at the White House said the president is still fired up about the possibility of fraud, and is hanging onto any sliver of hope he could win.

    "He was in a very good mood — laughing, joking. He still thinks he has a shot while also recognizing it's a long shot," the source said.

    In the source's personal opinion, putting Giuliani at the helm of this process was a mistake.

  16. #34856
    Former top intelligence official in the Trump administration Sue Gordon tells @NPRinskeep that adversaries trying to undermine American democracy can now "sit back" because America's own President is doing it for them.
    https://twitter.com/rachelnpr/status...527554563?s=19

    This is the heart of the issue. Was in 2106 and now it at a whole new level. The frikin US President is a) saying our election is not legit and b) trying to overthrow the election.
    Democrats are the best! I will never ever question a Democrat again. I LOVE the Democrats!

  17. #34857
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    This is the heart of the issue.
    It is, isn't it? Nothing is more damaging than the cult leader flipping the world's largest table.

  18. #34858
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    Some weak tea from our pundit betters.

    Person whose entire job is supposedly to be distributing political information says
    • the political information industry failed
    • while affirming his own political prejudices
    • Repeating the script that politics coverage stuck to for the last four years


    It's something that will probably need it's own thread. But the current media model skews towards "access journalism", relying on leaks from "friends" in an administration. It was a technique that really took off when W Bush was pushing the Iraq War.

    Also, that beltway pundits get hostile to administrations that don't provide to them cozy leaks or cocktail dinners.

    Also, lesson is the noun form of learning.
    Government Affiliated Snark

  19. #34859
    Axios is VERY hit and miss. Some of their content is spot on, and the rest is very knee-jerk 'OMG RADICAL LEFT'.

  20. #34860
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    It is, isn't it? Nothing is more damaging than the cult leader flipping the world's largest table.
    I should add the Republican Party, aka Trump party. In a basic 2 party system when one goes full fascist and subverts our Constitution, it's bad.
    Democrats are the best! I will never ever question a Democrat again. I LOVE the Democrats!

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