Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[PhaelixWW]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._of_succession for the current list. is that list even valid after jan 21 (aside from Speaker and Pres pro tempore) because everybody on that list is off duty by then ?

They're explicitly listed in the chain of succession even in the "failure to qualify" scenario, so yes. There's nothing that says that a Cabinet member is fired automatically when a transition occurs. They just serve "at the pleasure of the President" and can be fired by POTUS at any time he/she wishes. So a new, incoming President will almost always remove the old Cabinet and install a new one.

[Mihalik]

The military pledges no allegiance to the President; their oath is to the Constitution itself. They don't have any obligation to follow Trump's orders, certainly not after Biden is officially named President-Elect. He may attempt to install loyalist commanders but that doesn't mean the entire institution is beholden to his whims.

There is also no mechanism by which they are both sworn in and both have legitimate claim. Frankly, it is too late for Trump to manipulate the system and come out as President with any degree of legitimacy, even if bad faith electors or justices were to attempt to overturn the results. Maybe if this election had actually been close, or there was actual evidence (even manufactured), but that just isn't the case here.

But that's the problem. The President Elect being named is dependent on the Electoral College actually naming him.

What if the electoral college can't do that? Won't do that or goes against the certified results?

If there ever was a case that highlighted the need to separate the positions of head of state and chief executive here it is.

Really these 4 years have made me realize that our democratic institutions are fundamentally and irredeemably flawed, weak and are further eroding.

I'm worried but I'm hoping Idiot Twitler will bungle it because he is an idiot. But I'm terrified that the next Reich winger that bamboozles the 70 million death cultists of the GOP won't be an idiot. Cuz if we haven't fixed this mess by then, we will be irredeemably fucked.

[Doctor Amadeus]

What? No, literally she's in the chain of succession as a Cabinet member.

If all the people above her were to keel over and die and the election were to somehow be unresolved, then she could be the President on January 20th, legally.

It's a ridiculous hypothetical, but it's not wrong.

EDIT: From 3 U.S. Code § 19 - Vacancy in offices of both President and Vice President; officers eligible to act

Again everyone magically keel over and died. And a meteor ends all life on earth but me.

Same difference.

Nancy Pelosi being President isn’t going to happen be Biden will. But right now Pelosi is in the wheelhouse of very unlikely happening.

And Betsy More like the hell has frozenith over chance.

And mine being in the I’m likely in a straight jacket or President of earth chance.

So no yeah Trump keeps fucking around it will be President Pelosi if every single Republican said let’s end the Democratic process as we know it.

[beanman12345]

Well there are a few stupid enough to try, but when the military stops fucking around and can lay thousands of LARPErs down in seconds. They might figure out that a half trillion in yearly defense spending went a lot further than they knew.

And unlike TV there is a huge fucking difference between groups of protesters occasionally getting out of hand and heavily armed morons threatening war and insurrection.

Civil War could happen but it’s going to be lose lose all the way around.

People have already lost friends and family over this in terms of ending associations.

But unless people are willing able and capable of committing murder over an election both sides have found Trump clearly lost, is going to likely be the smelling salt.

Trump lost they can get the fuck over it or don’t. Protest organize whatever

But that’s not going to change reality. Trump lost

I guarantee this bullshit silent majority is a myth. And if there is a war I’m sure it will be Trump that starts it. But I also guarantee none of the idiots who want it to happen have any idea how much more they’ll lose than an election.

You are right, the silent majority was completely debunked not only in 2016, but also now in 2020 6 million vote lead for biden makes trumpers a very vocal minority opposite of a very vocal majority. neither side are silent.

[PhaelixWW]

Again everyone magically keel over and died. And a meteor ends all life on earth but me.

Same difference.

No, you're not listed in 3 U.S. Code § 19, sorry.

You could claim to be President, but you wouldn't have legal standing, which is what you were talking about here. DeVos would actually (sadly) have it. You would not.

[ranzino]

They're explicitly listed in the chain of succession even in the "failure to qualify" scenario, so yes. There's nothing that says that a Cabinet member is fired automatically when a transition occurs. They just serve "at the pleasure of the President" and can be fired by POTUS at any time he/she wishes. So a new, incoming President will almost always remove the old Cabinet and install a new one.

fictional Pres. Pelosi would be wise to fire them immediately first second. but the list is void below pres pro tempore until new secs in office.

[Doctor Amadeus]

But that's the problem. The President Elect being named is dependent on the Electoral College actually naming him.

What if the electoral college can't do that? Won't do that or goes against the certified results?

If there ever was a case that highlighted the need to separate the positions of head of state and chief executive here it is.

Really these 4 years have made me realize that our democratic institutions are fundamentally and irredeemably flawed, weak and are further eroding.

I'm worried but I'm hoping Idiot Twitler will bungle it because he is an idiot. But I'm terrified that the next Reich winger that bamboozles the 70 million death cultists of the GOP won't be an idiot. Cuz if we haven't fixed this mess by then, we will be irredeemably fucked.

You’re right to be concerned and you’re right about examining power and responsibility of our government.

But those founding fathers have laid the groundwork for contingencies in case of abuse.

Unfortunately much it relies on informed and better citizens.

Right now the only military function Trump has is to declare martial law however there would have to be cause.

Riots happening everywhere could allow that. But even then congress had to review it and it wouldn’t change the election results. Only Congress could come close to that.

That’s why we have a constitution it has our backs if good people are willing to know it and use it.

[Kathranis]

The only thing that would qualify as a Civil War in this country would involve a split military. If conditions are not bad enough for the military to split, then there can really be no legitimate Civil War.

The US Military as an institution is not going to help usurp the rightfully elected President. Even if some Trump loyalists in command attempted such a thing, they would certainly face immediate pushback, if not simply get arrested for treason.

You could maybe see small numbers of off duty defectors joining up with these right wing militias and organizing, but this isn't like the 1800s. The military has drones and intercontinental ballistic missiles. The militias would be utterly and almost effortlessly decimated if they tried to wage an open civil war. What's more likely -- and I'm sure the FBI is already being hyper vigilant -- is a wave of domestic terrorism.

[Doctor Amadeus]

No, you're not listed in 3 U.S. Code § 19, sorry.

You could claim to be President, but you wouldn't have legal standing, which is what you were talking about here. DeVos would actually (sadly) have it. You would not.

Well yes you’re right on that point. The problem is many things would or wouldn’t have happened for that to be the case. And while technically yeah. I’m guessing the Union no longer exist or even functions at that point so the point I think realistically would be moot.

[PhaelixWW]

fictional Pres. Pelosi would be wise to fire them immediately first second. but the list is void below pres pro tempore until new secs in office.

There's nothing in the law to support this, at least that I can see. Nothing says that they lose their positions on January 20th.

Also, Pelosi wouldn't be President before January 20th, either, and this hypothetical would involve her being incapacitated before then. Regardless, she couldn't fire Grassley, so he'd have to be incapacitated as well for that to really matter.

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Well yes you’re right on that point. The problem is many things would or wouldn’t have happened for that to be the case. And while technically yeah. I’m guessing the Union no longer exist or even functions at that point so the point I think realistically would be moot.

Yeah, I was just countering the "there are only two possible people who could be President on January 20th" statement.

Technically, that list is 15 people long. Biden, if he's officially qualified as he should be, then Pelosi, then Grassley, then 12 of the Cabinet members who are actually eligible to be President.

Realistically, we'll all be clapping for Biden on palindrome inauguration day: 1/20/2021.

[Doctor Amadeus]

There's nothing in the law to support this, at least that I can see. Nothing says that they lose their positions on January 20th.

Also, Pelosi wouldn't be President before January 20th, either, and this hypothetical would involve her being incapacitated before then. Regardless, she couldn't fire Grassley, so he'd have to be incapacitated as well for that to really matter.

Ok but what hypothetical would cause those short of an unforeseen strike on DC literally destroying all of it?

You’re right about the firing that wouldn’t be automatic and Nancy would have to get senate approval for a replacement. But she can fire Betsy once recognized as President and appoint actors for the interim.

So yeah I’d like to know what realistically could ever leave the secretary of education in charge.

My guess is by that point if we weren’t in civil war. States likely might go it alone and leave the Union. Texas probably being first.


By the way I’m not saying you’re wrong and you for sure know what you’re talking about lol

But you’re hypothetical is still interesting

[PhaelixWW]

The US Military as an institution is not going to help usurp the rightfully elected President. Even if some Trump loyalists in command attempted such a thing, they would certainly face immediate pushback, if not simply get arrested for treason.

You could maybe see small numbers of off duty defectors joining up with these right wing militias and organizing, but this isn't like the 1800s. The military has drones and intercontinental ballistic missiles. The militias would be utterly and almost effortlessly decimated if they tried to wage an open civil war. What's more likely -- and I'm sure the FBI is already being hyper vigilant -- is a wave of domestic terrorism.

Absolutely, a Civil War is exceedingly unlikely in the current political landscape of the US, even as fucked up as it is at the moment.

It's also far less likely to occur during an attempted election coup. The most plausible scenario (and it's not very plausible, at that) for a Civil War situation would be a duly elected President giving blatantly Unconstitutional orders to said military.

[Kathranis]

Really these 4 years have made me realize that our democratic institutions are fundamentally and irredeemably flawed, weak and are further eroding.

Look, I'm not saying our government isn't susceptible. We've seen enough examples of fascists rising to power to know that it can happen.

However, the chain of command, checks and balances, red tape, etc. pretty much guarantee that Trump can't just pull an eleventh hour coup because he doesn't like losing. He simply doesn't have the power to unilaterally take control by force. Achieving such a thing would require playing a much longer game, and a great deal more competence than Trump or anyone in his inner circle is capable of mustering together.

[ranzino]

i remember the Gerald Ford succession, he was first installed as new VP then became President. President Pelosi would likely name a new VP to restart the list and keep Chuck Grassley away, but cannot because Senate would never approve anybody ?

tsk tsk

[PhaelixWW]

Ok but what hypothetical would cause those short of an unforeseen strike on DC literally destroying all of it?

I mean, we're living through a pandemic that's again reaching 2k deaths a day at the moment, and we still have yet to weather what's going to be an extremely deadly "flu" season before we even get to January 20th.

Conditions are far more ripe for this hypothetical scenario than they've ever been, especially with COVID running wild at the White House currently.

Don't get me wrong, though, it's still a ridiculous hypothetical, just not as ridiculous as it would be most years.

You’re right about the firing that wouldn’t be automatic and Nancy would have to get senate approval for a replacement. But she can fire Betsy once recognized as President and appoint actors for the interim.

But in the hypothetical scenario, she would be incapacitated before January 20th, so she'd never be acting President in order to fire the Cabinet. This scenario involves either Trump or Pence surviving to January 20th.

But you’re hypothetical is still interesting

Oh, it's a batshit crazy hypothetical. Just thinking about "President DeVos" makes me shudder uncontrollably.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Look, I'm not saying our government isn't susceptible. We've seen enough examples of fascists rising to power to know that it can happen.

However, the chain of command, checks and balances, red tape, etc. pretty much guarantee that Trump can't just pull an eleventh hour coup because he doesn't like losing. He simply doesn't have the power to unilaterally take control by force. Achieving such a thing would require playing a much longer game, and a great deal more competence than Trump or anyone in his inner circle is capable of mustering together.

Exactly the military the others agencies they also have contingencies for these kinds of events.

People keep saying how many voted for Trump while ignoring 6 million more voted Biden who won who with all of the above and our allies.

The only thing Trump is going to do is stall create stupidity and make the transition take longer than it should killing more Americans in the process.

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I mean, we're living through a pandemic that's again reaching 2k deaths a day at the moment, and we still have yet to weather what's going to be an extremely deadly "flu" season before we even get to January 20th.

Conditions are far more ripe for this hypothetical scenario than they've ever been, especially with COVID running wild at the White House currently.

Don't get me wrong, though, it's still a ridiculous hypothetical, just not as ridiculous as it would be most years.



But in the hypothetical scenario, she would be incapacitated before January 20th, so she'd never be acting President in order to fire the Cabinet. This scenario involves either Trump or Pence surviving to January 20th.



Oh, it's a batshit crazy hypothetical. Just thinking about "President DeVos" makes me shudder uncontrollably.

Damn that’s pretty good. Much better than half of what’s on tv now. Lol

[Resurgo]

Since the election has pretty much become a dog and pony show with tons of theatrics, I'm guessing this is a democrat's version of adding to it?

PASCRELL SEEKS DISBARMENT OF GIULIANI, 22 TRUMP CAMPAIGN LAWYERS
https://www.insidernj.com/press-rele...6edlX0YydRoUq0

[Kaleredar]

Since the election has pretty much become a dog and pony show with tons of theatrics, I'm guessing this is a democrat's version of adding to it?

PASCRELL SEEKS DISBARMENT OF GIULIANI, 22 TRUMP CAMPAIGN LAWYERS
https://www.insidernj.com/press-rele...6edlX0YydRoUq0

The only difference is, the democrats are absolutely in the right here.

Launching this many frivolous lawsuits designed to clog up the court and arguing from such bad faith repeatedly should absolutely be grounds for disbarment.

They should be making these lawyers scared to pursue action on such an obvious hoax for which they have zero standing or merit. Ol' Ghouly might be thoroughly in the Trump train, but I doubt the rest of these lawyers who are going to want careers afterwards will be so eager to throw their bar accreditation away.

[Benggaul]

Since the election has pretty much become a dog and pony show with tons of theatrics, I'm guessing this is a democrat's version of adding to it?

PASCRELL SEEKS DISBARMENT OF GIULIANI, 22 TRUMP CAMPAIGN LAWYERS
https://www.insidernj.com/press-rele...6edlX0YydRoUq0

Nope. This isn't a "omg both sides" situation. There are generally penalties for filing frivolous lawsuits (usually fines and contempt charges) and when it's on a scale this size for an event this important I think the penalties should increase to match. Good on them for calling them out.

[passingthrew]

Since the election has pretty much become a dog and pony show with tons of theatrics, I'm guessing this is a democrat's version of adding to it?

PASCRELL SEEKS DISBARMENT OF GIULIANI, 22 TRUMP CAMPAIGN LAWYERS
https://www.insidernj.com/press-rele...6edlX0YydRoUq0

One side making a mockery of the legal system. The other attempting to stop that. BoTh SiDeS GuYS!