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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarm View Post
    Ok, I see the point, with that said tho, I feel like you took my example as literal. From what I see, characters have 16k HP or something at sub 60? which means they still have more HP then at the very least, BC. I'm not sure how much HP we had in WOTLK nor what our stats will look like at 60 but that it still way more stats when we had in vanilla. The stats in shadowlands won't be so small that 1 point of agi is going to make such a big difference.
    It totally is more than we had in Vanilla. If I recall, tanks were finishing BC around 20-25k health. I could be wrong on that, it has been a very long time. But even so, I think we will end SL with tanks being around 75-100k health. There is plenty of room for tuning, but dropping all the way to like, only 20 Primary stat on a piece of gear is still way too coarse when it comes to tuning and balance. You get this horrible cycle of either the increase is HUGE or the increase is so small it literally makes almost no difference.

    My real concern though is with the level squish coupled with Chromie Time and everything, how is old content going to be handled? I mean, right now, you can solo old content because of the level difference coupled with the "appropriate" level of the raid. So soloing Molten Core is easy because we are more than 10 levels above so we get huge damage boosts and take almost no damage. But, will they manually be adding that buff to old content? Since you can level to 50 through any expansion, that means "end of expansion" level will be 50. So how will that be handled in terms of gearing? MC gear will, in theory, have the same required level as, say, Nya'lotha gear, but some of that gear will be ridiculously more powerful.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I indeed cannot lie

    I just miss hitting for 20,000,000 in Legion - was fun
    Ngl to me it felt like a mobile hack and slash game with those numbers to me. When the numbers are so high the only way to notice them half the time is through an addon. If you’re hitting for 800 and you see a 2-3k crit you notice it very clearly

  3. #63
    Would be stupid and a waste if they would start with BFA numbers at 50 and got to like Legion numbers at 60 again. And since they are already doing the ilvl and level squish they can do a damage squish at the same time. Saves them one expansion where they have to write 90 blogposts for all those transmog farmers that they can still solo old content and nothing is changing because lets face it, those guys have the brain capacities of goldfish.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Thagrynor View Post
    It totally is more than we had in Vanilla. If I recall, tanks were finishing BC around 20-25k health. I could be wrong on that, it has been a very long time. But even so, I think we will end SL with tanks being around 75-100k health. There is plenty of room for tuning, but dropping all the way to like, only 20 Primary stat on a piece of gear is still way too coarse when it comes to tuning and balance. You get this horrible cycle of either the increase is HUGE or the increase is so small it literally makes almost no difference.

    My real concern though is with the level squish coupled with Chromie Time and everything, how is old content going to be handled? I mean, right now, you can solo old content because of the level difference coupled with the "appropriate" level of the raid. So soloing Molten Core is easy because we are more than 10 levels above so we get huge damage boosts and take almost no damage. But, will they manually be adding that buff to old content? Since you can level to 50 through any expansion, that means "end of expansion" level will be 50. So how will that be handled in terms of gearing? MC gear will, in theory, have the same required level as, say, Nya'lotha gear, but some of that gear will be ridiculously more powerful.
    I think they already have coefficients added. I remember that when they did the other squishes they had to tune older content a bit. I believe they already have stuff set that that says "MC is 400% buff, Black temple 325" etc etc (numbers pulled out of my ass of course). So I think it will be done so all previous raids scale appropriately for lvl 50's.

  5. #65
    Bloodsail Admiral Firatha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synical123 View Post
    Ngl to me it felt like a mobile hack and slash game with those numbers to me. When the numbers are so high the only way to notice them half the time is through an addon. If you’re hitting for 800 and you see a 2-3k crit you notice it very clearly
    Please explain how the numbers you hit for make the game magically change into an entirely different type of game.
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    No they don’t learn and evidence suggests that. Behavior also doesn’t change and if there is any hope of learning behavior has to change.

    Not meaningless declarations easy to say after he regrets offering up evidence he’s a racist.

  6. #66
    Herald of the Titans Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    So I'm guessing we're going to have the WoD issues again real soon after release then.
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Firatha View Post
    Please explain how the numbers you hit for make the game magically change into an entirely different type of game.
    Please explain why you attempting to put words in my mouth I didn’t say. I never said the numbers alone made it a completely different game. I simply explained why I prefer lower numbers

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarm View Post
    I think they already have coefficients added. I remember that when they did the other squishes they had to tune older content a bit. I believe they already have stuff set that that says "MC is 400% buff, Black temple 325" etc etc (numbers pulled out of my ass of course). So I think it will be done so all previous raids scale appropriately for lvl 50's.
    Funny enough, shortly after I posted the above, they apparently posted about it. I am wondering if they will do "more than 5 levels over" given the level "equivalence" they mentioned. Guess we will have to wait and see!

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    Yes, let's compare the current game to the iteration 15 years ago, what could go wrong?

    Maybe that we have 4 difficulties that ain't going anywhere soon is a thing? or that the whole fucking item structure is different since nearly a decade? hmm...

    - - - Updated - - -



    You can't make every item a trinket or trinket like though (over saturation) and we still have 4 difficulties.
    Getting Pants that have 15~% more power after a few months of the same raid just feels better than 5%...

    I'd go as crazy as to say that with the current nonexistance of set tiers i'd go with more than the 15 ilvl jump usual from raid to raid, 20-25 would feel even better.
    You don’t have to make every piece like a trinket but sets like the BoD sword and ring was great
    Mechagon rings

    Make secondary stats stronger and buff the primary

    The problem is more gaps and bigger differences means more squish required

  10. #70
    I wonder if they're going to keep doing this with every expansion going forward? 9.0 brings a stat, level and ilvl squish. 10.0 brings a level squish, and you go back to 50. 11.0 does what 9.0 did? I'm very curious to see how this continues.
    "Your name was stolen? I see... Well, I guess that happens from time to time..."


  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormvind View Post
    What? I had like 5k or something on my paladin and I wasn't a tank.
    Like I said it's ben 13-15 since I was in Vanilla. Like I remember shit like HP totals from that long ago. My only concern was making sure green bars stayed full.

  12. #72
    The Patient LuckyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post

    The problem is more gaps and bigger differences means more squish required
    Is it a problem though? I think the past showed that 99% of the players don't care after playing a few hours with the new numbers, makes sense too since the only thing you interact and "feel" with while in the open world is how fast you deplete the HP bar from the mob you currently target.

  13. #73
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by spleen1015 View Post
    How can you have a level squish and not have a stat & ilvl squish to go along with it?

    It only makes sense that if a level squish happens the other 2 as well.

    Sorry you lost your numb3rs.
    I mean you can do a level squish and an ilvl squish without affecting the stats. they just chose not to go that route

  14. #74
    Banned Venziir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeftyDPS View Post
    So I raised a few months ago that with the level squish there would also be an item level and stat squish. At the time a LOT of people resoundly rejected this as it wasn't stated directly by Blizzard.

    Thought I would add this here as it has not been mentioned but we ARE getting an ilvl squish and from the looks of it a stat squish as well (sloots live stream ATM shows a Lvl51 in plate with 16,000 health)

    https://www.wowhead.com/news=311945/...squish-details
    ... Well obviously it does, you can't do a level squish without an ilevel and stat squish.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Selah View Post
    ilvl squish is good an all but we still need an outright numbers squish too. At least in my opinion. I'd love to see this expansion have tank HPs be around 2k.
    This is utter bullshit. You d'ont know what you are talking about.
    2k HP for a tank and what 600HP for a mage?
    This means every levelup gives you what 10 HP?
    So if you get a new Item that has 10 itemlevel more, gives you about 10 HP more.
    So the difference between an Item from Leveling and from the first raid would be allmost meeningless.

    No,No,No

    The more I read about Shadowlands the more I don't like it.
    WF/TF gone, Corruption gone, azerit traits gone, essences gone, emmisarys gone, less loot.
    So boring.

    Ability pruning has been changed into gear pruning.

    Its like classic 2.0 and I hate classic from the bottom of my heart.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by LeftyDPS View Post
    Thanks for this, it's the first time someone has linked me what they said.

    That is extremely bad wording on blizzards part. Technically they are correct in that we are "just as powerful" as we are now, so they haven't lied bacause everything number wise is also going down, but that is so wooly as an answer I can see why people thought there wouldn't be a stat squish.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OHDAwg-Tw4

    Skip to 19:30 - he explicitly states there will be no stat squish. "This isn't like a number's squish or anything like that."

    Just to be clear: I'm happy they changed their minds and are doing a stat squish. I don't think they lied or anything like that. They changed their minds and made a better decision in the end imo. I'm just clarifying that the people who are surprised by the stat squish are 100% remembering correctly that Blizzard said it wouldn't happen.

  17. #77
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selah View Post
    ilvl squish is good an all but we still need an outright numbers squish too. At least in my opinion. I'd love to see this expansion have tank HPs be around 2k.
    TBC was perfect. Everyone ended up around 10-11K, tanks were on 22K on raids.

    We could even go to WotLK numbers, to make it easier. Remember that we have many expansions in between now and then..

  18. #78
    Sounds to me like they are turning all previous expansions into a parallel experience, which fixes any issues with stat squishing moving forward, because you will only ever need a drastic power level increase between an old expansion and the current.

    You no longer need an HP difference between WotLK and Warlords bosses. They will be the same and soloable by anyone in the Shadowlands ilvl range. This allows them to bump SL down to a "precious xpac" stat lvl when a new expansion comes out and not worry about power creep due to trying to scale stats through 10+ expansions.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    ... Well obviously it does, you can't do a level squish without an ilevel and stat squish.
    You can and they originally didn't do anything but a lvl squish http://youtu.be/qXQ-uyotkfw?t=871

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    Is it a problem though? I think the past showed that 99% of the players don't care after playing a few hours with the new numbers, makes sense too since the only thing you interact and "feel" with while in the open world is how fast you deplete the HP bar from the mob you currently target.
    The only problem I have with it is when they talk about how they don’t know how to solve the problem of having a level squish when in reality the way to solve the problem is to stop the goddamn power leap that we experience every expansion

    I’m actually surprised that we only went 100 item levels this time

    But yeah personally I don’t see the number squishes a problem I just see the fact that the next patch will invalidate all of the content that you’ve been running and you never have to come back to do content if that makes sense so you’ll never have to run the first Raid once the second rate is out and eventually a heroic dungeon will reward better gear than mythic of the entire first tier

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