Shadowlands DOES come with an ilevel

[ReVnX]

Weren't most non tanks around 3k and tanks around 6k? It been a while.

Tanks hp ranged from 6k to 10k depending on gear IIRC

Most classes were are at something like 4-6k? I might be just thinking of geared character because of raiding

Not sure but still far from the proposed 2k for tanks

[MrLachyG]

So I raised a few months ago that with the level squish there would also be an item level and stat squish. At the time a LOT of people resoundly rejected this as it wasn't stated directly by Blizzard.

Thought I would add this here as it has not been mentioned but we ARE getting an ilvl squish and from the looks of it a stat squish as well (sloots live stream ATM shows a Lvl51 in plate with 16,000 health)

https://www.wowhead.com/news=311945/...squish-details

ilvl? yes. as for stats, well that remains to be seen. I know what you said you saw but don't you think that if a stat squish like that had been noticed then wowhead would have an article on it?

edit: just asked Taliesin on his live stream and after watching Preach play and seeing the damage yes there is definitely a stat squish.

[LeftyDPS]

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ne...ve-panel-recap

Deep Dive Panel Recap from Bilzzcon in the Leveling Updates section:



It's an incredible warp on words to take this and say something like, "percentage-wise, you are just as powerful" as that's obviously not what was meant when they said this back in November and this is obviously not what players would have taken from it. Everyone I know what fully expecting to have the exact same amount of HP and doing the same amount of DPS, we'd just be level 50 instead.

That said, there's obviously nothing wrong with the squish in my opinion and I'm okay with them scrapping the idea of not squishing our power with the adjustment. Especially with how high our numbers got with 8.3, we'd be looking at far beyond MoP numbers with the steady stat increase scale they've always used since '04.

Thanks for this, it's the first time someone has linked me what they said.

That is extremely bad wording on blizzards part. Technically they are correct in that we are "just as powerful" as we are now, so they haven't lied bacause everything number wise is also going down, but that is so wooly as an answer I can see why people thought there wouldn't be a stat squish.

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ilvl? yes. as for stats, well that remains to be seen. I know what you said you saw but don't you think that if a stat squish like that had been noticed then wowhead would have an article on it?

edit: just asked Taliesin on his live stream and after watching Preach play and seeing the damage yes there is definitely a stat squish.

I think the problem is the lack of clarity on what people understood by the squish. Potentially wowhead and others assumed that with the level squish a stat squish would come as well. Have no evidence of this but that makes sense as to how it has been overlooked

[Backstabak]

...Now apparently lv 130 would be too daunting (for who? new players? Alts? Still only takes 3-4 days from lv 1-120)...

With how few abilities and talents we have, most of the leveling provides you absolutely nothing and is just a chore. So level squish is really welcomed. Blizz really had to change new player experience because it was quite frankly atrocious. Far worse than even free to play games, so e.g. new tutorial location and level sqish seems like great change.

Also for numbers, if they didn't reduce them from time to time, we would have likely run out of the integer length for it.

[Lolites]

That is extremely bad wording on blizzards part. Technically they are correct in that we are "just as powerful" as we are now, so they haven't lied bacause everything number wise is also going down, but that is so wooly as an answer I can see why people thought there wouldn't be a stat squish.

even if they outright said there will be no ilvl squish and there is one they didnt lie, its game DEVELOPMENT, things change...

[Aenigma84]

Tanks hp ranged from 6k to 10k depending on gear IIRC

Most classes were are at something like 4-6k? I might be just thinking of geared character because of raiding

Not sure but still far from the proposed 2k for tanks

i would be suprised if most people are at 6k,
some classes had trouble making 8500 hp for nejantus late TBC iirc

[LeftyDPS]

even if they outright said there will be no ilvl squish and there is one they didnt lie, its game DEVELOPMENT, things change...

Oh don't get me wrong, I understand that. I work in IT for an ecommerce company so completely understand that one day you are saying one thing then the next it changes!!

I've been the on planning all our home working strategy and how we are going to be communicating, equipment needed, phone system for customer calls etc, and that changed several times during the first few weeks before the UK lockdown. (Having to train staff on three different phone systems in just over a week is not something I would recommend!!)

[MrLachyG]

On the first stat squish I was like...yeah..ok, so maybe you cannot comprehend a 2 million damage hit, but hell..then look at mobs HP in % what is the problem? But ok, I get it..... it is a big-ish number.

Next up is the ilv squish, because apparently over 1000 is a problem.

Now apparently lv 130 would be too daunting (for who? new players? Alts? Still only takes 3-4 days from lv 1-120)

Of all things the level squish annoys me the most....but as with everything, I guess we get used to it and a mathematician can explain to me why it is needed.

wasn't the first stat squish due to limitations of their system? Garrosh had to heal himself up 3 times because of it. as for the one happening this time, I think it's more due to the ilvl squish than anything else but I guess the gist of it is they don't want anyone going over a million HP mid expansion? I mean at some point they are going to have to stop squishing - otherwise that chart that OP linked would be reading very different in an expansion or two.

[Thagrynor]

Never understood why some hate stat squish. They ain't removing anything from you they are just making your numbers smaller. It just means you're getting +20 agi on your item instead of 1110. It's all it is, a squish... Every expansion is a "power reset" of sort. It doesn't change anything.

The issue is fine tuning.

You say "oh, you get 20 Agi instead of 1110 Agi". But that means the Heroic version may have 1180 Agi. Which is roughly a 6% increase in Agi. If it were 20 Agi, then the Heroic would have about 21 Agi. Or 22 Agi for a 10% increase. But you would then also need to make 1 Agi a much larger increase to power than it currently is.

Basically, larger numbers make tuning more like doing surgery with a scalpel while small numbers make it like doing surgery with a broad sword.

This is because you cannot award fractional stat. Points, like 20.5 Agi.

And Blizzard already has issues with numbers tuning.

This is the same reason the other post about tanks having 2k health is fucking ludicrous.

Currently a geared tank in BFA has about 1M health. If they had 2k health, then Ragnaros in MC would need to have about 1k health. Which means for "of level" characters to fight him, they would need to do about 2-4 DPS. Which means "of level" world mobs would have like 11 health.

[MrLachyG]

I think the problem is the lack of clarity on what people understood by the squish. Potentially wowhead and others assumed that with the level squish a stat squish would come as well. Have no evidence of this but that makes sense as to how it has been overlooked

I am curious as to how many times they will do it. they can't just keep squishing the ilvl down, cause eventually that won't work. when will they stop? when vanilla ilvl gear is level 1-8?

i can see them doing a level squish each time, just sliding each old expansion into the 10-50 slot and making the new one from 50-60 again. they don't even need to change the post-Shadowlands level of each expansion; BfA raids/dungeons can still remain at 50 all they do is add a damage buff and reduce damage taken and you're golden, Shadowlands at 50 as well and Expansion X at 60

[Laqweeta]

I wanted to see end game numbers at WotLK levels. About 30k HP for a DPS spec on the game’s last patch.

[Revamp Man]

That's too low for variance i think, you need to steadily progress from lvl 1-60 in SL with your HP and 2k is pretty low, they couldn't even give you stamina on your gear until level 40 or something x)

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Bad idea, 10% would feel like nothing in terms of power gain, there is a reason they go with 15~% just for each difficulty for example.

Because players are stupid and the only excuse blizzard has for the 15ilvl gap was a situation with a world first guild and a pair of crappy pants

Make the gear interesting and people will farm it no matter the ilvl...look at razor coral

[Eazy]

It's nice. The variations of outcomes will be narrowed.

[Donald Hellscream]

Makes sense that they would, considering the level squish.

While I am not one to get a massive boner over small numbers, I guess I am alright with it.

[huth]

Of all things the level squish annoys me the most....but as with everything, I guess we get used to it and a mathematician can explain to me why it is needed.

The level squish was purely a design decision. They wanted to reduce the number of "empty" levels where you basically get nothing. Most specs actually get their last baseline skill upgrade at level 58(aka during SL leveling) now. Mathematically it's basically irrelevant and does nothing.

Thanks for this, it's the first time someone has linked me what they said.

That is extremely bad wording on blizzards part. Technically they are correct in that we are "just as powerful" as we are now, so they haven't lied bacause everything number wise is also going down, but that is so wooly as an answer I can see why people thought there wouldn't be a stat squish.

It should also be noted that during the BlizzCon demo, there wasn't any squish. That's a more recent development. AFAIR, they actually made mention of numbers being pretty much unchanged after pre-patch, but i can't remember where that was.

[TheLucky1]

What were the power gains in Vanilla? They weren't as much as they are now and it felt fine.

Yes, let's compare the current game to the iteration 15 years ago, what could go wrong?

Maybe that we have 4 difficulties that ain't going anywhere soon is a thing? or that the whole fucking item structure is different since nearly a decade? hmm...

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Because players are stupid and the only excuse blizzard has for the 15ilvl gap was a situation with a world first guild and a pair of crappy pants

Make the gear interesting and people will farm it no matter the ilvl...look at razor coral

You can't make every item a trinket or trinket like though (over saturation) and we still have 4 difficulties.
Getting Pants that have 15~% more power after a few months of the same raid just feels better than 5%...

I'd go as crazy as to say that with the current nonexistance of set tiers i'd go with more than the 15 ilvl jump usual from raid to raid, 20-25 would feel even better.

[kamuimac]

So I raised a few months ago that with the level squish there would also be an item level and stat squish. At the time a LOT of people resoundly rejected this as it wasn't stated directly by Blizzard.

Thought I would add this here as it has not been mentioned but we ARE getting an ilvl squish and from the looks of it a stat squish as well (sloots live stream ATM shows a Lvl51 in plate with 16,000 health)

https://www.wowhead.com/news=311945/...squish-details

it was obvious.

blizzard is now making expansions into seasons.

i bet that in 10.0 they will squish all 3 things again inclyding another level squish .

you will never again progress your toons.

[Beefhammer]

Yes, let's compare the current game to the iteration 15 years ago, what could go wrong?

Maybe that we have 4 difficulties that ain't going anywhere soon is a thing? or that the whole fucking item structure is different since nearly a decade? hmm...

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You can't make every item a trinket or trinket like though (over saturation) and we still have 4 difficulties.
Getting Pants that have 15~% more power after a few months of the same raid just feels better than 5%...

I'd go as crazy as to say that with the current nonexistance of set tiers i'd go with more than the 15 ilvl jump usual from raid to raid, 20-25 would feel even better.

Still doesn't require a huge jump in Ilvl between difficulties or tiers. There are other ways of doing this. 1, have power gains be smaller. 2, have different items/itemization in the different difficulties. 3, reduce the amount of difficulties. 3 would be enough. LFR, normal, mythic.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

it baffles me that people are still upset about some RND numbers that dont matter power wise

[fear]

That is extremely bad wording on blizzards part. Technically they are correct in that we are "just as powerful" as we are now, so they haven't lied bacause everything number wise is also going down, but that is so wooly as an answer I can see why people thought there wouldn't be a stat squish.



I think the problem is the lack of clarity on what people understood by the squish. Potentially wowhead and others assumed that with the level squish a stat squish would come as well. Have no evidence of this but that makes sense as to how it has been overlooked

Combine that with the fact alpha at blizzcon there was no squished ilvl or stats I wonder why people were fooled.