Shadowlands DOES come with an ilevel

[Onikaroshi]

Don't think there's actually a stat squish, a stat squish entails that each ilvl is worth less in stats but that's not true. The lower stats come from the ilvl adjustment, which also isn't really a "squish" because it matches better with our level, it's more an adjustment because a level 50 wearing 475 would be weird.

[TheLucky1]

Still doesn't require a huge jump in Ilvl between difficulties or tiers. There are other ways of doing this. 1, have power gains be smaller. 2, have different items/itemization in the different difficulties. 3, reduce the amount of difficulties. 3 would be enough. LFR, normal, mythic.

No one will be excited if the next raid gives you 5% more stats on item x, you won't even feel it.
15-20% is something different.

The whole thing is a nonproblem to begin with, if they squish numbers every expansion so what? we already had 2 (or 3?) behind us and after some initial getting used to no one cares.

[Eurhetemec]

Don't think there's actually a stat squish, a stat squish entails that each ilvl is worth less in stats but that's not true. The lower stats come from the ilvl adjustment, which also isn't really a "squish" because it matches better with our level, it's more an adjustment because a level 50 wearing 475 would be weird.

This is what is called "denial" in psychology. Especially as ilvl 385 appears to be going to 66, and ilvl 475 appears to be going to 130/140, which is not what would happen if what you were describing was going on.

It was inevitable and it happened.

[Onikaroshi]

This is what is called "denial" in psychology. Especially as ilvl 385 appears to be going to 66, and ilvl 475 appears to be going to 130/140, which is not what would happen if what you were describing was going on.

It was inevitable and it happened.

It's not denial, there is no stat squish, just an ilvl adjustment

[Eurhetemec]

It's not denial, there is no stat squish, just an ilvl adjustment

Sure buddy, keep living the dream. 800000k down to 16000k is definitely not a squish.

[Onikaroshi]

Sure buddy, keep living the dream. 800000k down to 16000k is definitely not a squish.

475 down to just over 100 ilvl, of course you're going to lose health. They didn't adjust stat budgets.

[Kalarm]

The issue is fine tuning.

You say "oh, you get 20 Agi instead of 1110 Agi". But that means the Heroic version may have 1180 Agi. Which is roughly a 6% increase in Agi. If it were 20 Agi, then the Heroic would have about 21 Agi. Or 22 Agi for a 10% increase. But you would then also need to make 1 Agi a much larger increase to power than it currently is.

Basically, larger numbers make tuning more like doing surgery with a scalpel while small numbers make it like doing surgery with a broad sword.

This is because you cannot award fractional stat. Points, like 20.5 Agi.

And Blizzard already has issues with numbers tuning.

This is the same reason the other post about tanks having 2k health is fucking ludicrous.

Currently a geared tank in BFA has about 1M health. If they had 2k health, then Ragnaros in MC would need to have about 1k health. Which means for "of level" characters to fight him, they would need to do about 2-4 DPS. Which means "of level" world mobs would have like 11 health.

Ok, I see the point, with that said tho, I feel like you took my example as literal. From what I see, characters have 16k HP or something at sub 60? which means they still have more HP then at the very least, BC. I'm not sure how much HP we had in WOTLK nor what our stats will look like at 60 but that it still way more stats when we had in vanilla. The stats in shadowlands won't be so small that 1 point of agi is going to make such a big difference.

[fear]

It's not denial, there is no stat squish, just an ilvl adjustment

No there is both, a naked 120 still has more hp (20k) than than those ilvl 75 premade 50's (9k) so both happened.

[Mace]

So I raised a few months ago that with the level squish there would also be an item level and stat squish. At the time a LOT of people resoundly rejected this as it wasn't stated directly by Blizzard.

Thought I would add this here as it has not been mentioned but we ARE getting an ilvl squish and from the looks of it a stat squish as well (sloots live stream ATM shows a Lvl51 in plate with 16,000 health)

https://www.wowhead.com/news=311945/...squish-details

PEople like you and I must stop regarding so highly what people say, even if it is the greater majority, if you have figured out something and have a strong instinct, and people are not listening to you or your explanation, that's on them, not on you. .

In every group, you have the fat cat and the know it all, with some individuals who will never admit nor accept anything that they didn't think of first or realise, even if you say.."the sky is blue in the game", and though it is, they will find some way to make you sound wrong, incorrect, , because they must find fault with everything and only they are beyond criticism and reproach.

Good for you, you were right, now look. half of the nay sayers don't even care.

[Recovery]

That is good to know, but yeah, there's recently been a couple of those "I told you so" situations, this one being one such example from what I understand.

Here's the thing: even if you were right about it in the past, you were right about it based on a hunch, or wishful thinking that turned out to be true. This may happen, however it doesn't change the fact that people who were claiming otherwise hadn't had better grounds for their guesses. So yeah, congrats for guessing correctly despite there being no information about it, but if you previously claimed there was factual basis to those guesses (I don't know if you did, never seen the pots), you were still wrong, and this didn't change just because Blizzard ended up making the change.

I can only speak for myself, but IMO for a rational person what really matters is how grounded our predictions are in reality, not whether they ultimately end up being correct. There is always a chance that something surprising happens, but that's not something you can realistically account for.



I am not so sure there was a quote that there wouldn't be a stat squish and ilevel squish accompanying the level squish, but for sure there was no statement that there would be either.



A capped tank cannot have 2k hp, because then the differences between classic-tbc-wrath-cata etc. raids would be so miniscule they might as well not exist, and Blizz wants them to keep existing.

id like to see wotlk numbers again. 15-50k HP throughout the course of the expansion.. and like 5-30k dps throughout the course of the expansion.

I really dont like how much numbers grow over the course of an expasnion.. I remember first hitting 120 in bfa and having what? like 120k hp or something? tops? now were at 500k+? insane

as a matter of fact, it wouldnt bother me one bit if we stayed at 10,000 hp for the remainder of wow. HP number literally doesnt matter.. Stat numbers and damage numbers are all that we like to see growth in. lol

[Onikaroshi]

No there is both, a naked 120 still has more hp (20k) than than those ilvl 75 premade 50's (9k) so both happened.

Of course a 120 has more hp than a lvl 50, you have 70 levels less in base stats.

[God Save The King]

I'd like to see a hard reset/squish to Classic WoW numbers. Level 60 is the time to do it and they could rebuild the curve of gear to accommodate it. Level 51 with 15k+ hp is absurd.

With Classic numbers, they were able to avoid a squish until Warlords of Draenor. That's 5 expansions of content (Classic, BC, LK, Cat, MoP) that they could have before needing to do another squish.
Right now it's looking close to LK numbers at level 51. If we get close to Cata numbers at 60, that'll be 2, maybe 3, expansions before they do it again.

[fear]

Of course a 120 has more hp than a lvl 50, you have 70 levels less in base stats.

youtu.be/qXQ-uyotkfw?t=871

Oh look lvl 50 and it looks like just lvl squish, so clearly more happened between blizzcon and now than just a ilvl nerf.

[Onikaroshi]

youtu.be/qXQ-uyotkfw?t=871

Oh look lvl 50 and it looks like just lvl squish, so clearly more happened between blizzcon and now than just a ilvl nerf.

Yea, they reduced ilvl since blizzcon, not surprising. Lower ilvl = lower stat budget.

Stat squish means each ilvl is worth less, this is just lower ilvl and lvl.

[spleen1015]

How can you have a level squish and not have a stat & ilvl squish to go along with it?

It only makes sense that if a level squish happens the other 2 as well.

Sorry you lost your numb3rs.

[Thagrynor]

Ok, I see the point, with that said tho, I feel like you took my example as literal. From what I see, characters have 16k HP or something at sub 60? which means they still have more HP then at the very least, BC. I'm not sure how much HP we had in WOTLK nor what our stats will look like at 60 but that it still way more stats when we had in vanilla. The stats in shadowlands won't be so small that 1 point of agi is going to make such a big difference.

It totally is more than we had in Vanilla. If I recall, tanks were finishing BC around 20-25k health. I could be wrong on that, it has been a very long time. But even so, I think we will end SL with tanks being around 75-100k health. There is plenty of room for tuning, but dropping all the way to like, only 20 Primary stat on a piece of gear is still way too coarse when it comes to tuning and balance. You get this horrible cycle of either the increase is HUGE or the increase is so small it literally makes almost no difference.

My real concern though is with the level squish coupled with Chromie Time and everything, how is old content going to be handled? I mean, right now, you can solo old content because of the level difference coupled with the "appropriate" level of the raid. So soloing Molten Core is easy because we are more than 10 levels above so we get huge damage boosts and take almost no damage. But, will they manually be adding that buff to old content? Since you can level to 50 through any expansion, that means "end of expansion" level will be 50. So how will that be handled in terms of gearing? MC gear will, in theory, have the same required level as, say, Nya'lotha gear, but some of that gear will be ridiculously more powerful.

[Synical123]

I indeed cannot lie

I just miss hitting for 20,000,000 in Legion - was fun

Ngl to me it felt like a mobile hack and slash game with those numbers to me. When the numbers are so high the only way to notice them half the time is through an addon. If you’re hitting for 800 and you see a 2-3k crit you notice it very clearly

[Exkrementor]

Would be stupid and a waste if they would start with BFA numbers at 50 and got to like Legion numbers at 60 again. And since they are already doing the ilvl and level squish they can do a damage squish at the same time. Saves them one expansion where they have to write 90 blogposts for all those transmog farmers that they can still solo old content and nothing is changing because lets face it, those guys have the brain capacities of goldfish.

[Kalarm]

It totally is more than we had in Vanilla. If I recall, tanks were finishing BC around 20-25k health. I could be wrong on that, it has been a very long time. But even so, I think we will end SL with tanks being around 75-100k health. There is plenty of room for tuning, but dropping all the way to like, only 20 Primary stat on a piece of gear is still way too coarse when it comes to tuning and balance. You get this horrible cycle of either the increase is HUGE or the increase is so small it literally makes almost no difference.

My real concern though is with the level squish coupled with Chromie Time and everything, how is old content going to be handled? I mean, right now, you can solo old content because of the level difference coupled with the "appropriate" level of the raid. So soloing Molten Core is easy because we are more than 10 levels above so we get huge damage boosts and take almost no damage. But, will they manually be adding that buff to old content? Since you can level to 50 through any expansion, that means "end of expansion" level will be 50. So how will that be handled in terms of gearing? MC gear will, in theory, have the same required level as, say, Nya'lotha gear, but some of that gear will be ridiculously more powerful.

I think they already have coefficients added. I remember that when they did the other squishes they had to tune older content a bit. I believe they already have stuff set that that says "MC is 400% buff, Black temple 325" etc etc (numbers pulled out of my ass of course). So I think it will be done so all previous raids scale appropriately for lvl 50's.

[Firatha]

Ngl to me it felt like a mobile hack and slash game with those numbers to me. When the numbers are so high the only way to notice them half the time is through an addon. If you’re hitting for 800 and you see a 2-3k crit you notice it very clearly

Please explain how the numbers you hit for make the game magically change into an entirely different type of game.