Let loot be Loot - Ion2020

[Flay-]

I love how the fanboys are still trying to defend Legion and BfAs shitty loot design even though the developers themselves are now backflipping on all their SHIT choices.

It's almost like the players were right all along.


Fuck I'm enjoying this.

Am I remembering poorly, or didn't the shitty loot design begin before Legion?

[DemonDays]

Am I remembering poorly, or didn't the shitty loot design begin before Legion?

It was around in WoD but it wasn't as bad. Tolerable even.

The best design was in MoP.

Warforge = 5 iLevel.
Titanforge = 10 iLevel.

If your loot did not War/Titan proc then it came like this:

Ions Cuck Chastity Belt
iLevel 420
0/2 upgrades


You could use Valor points to upgrade the item twice - for a total of 10 iLevels. You could offset your bad luck and be on the same playing field as people who hit the jackpot.

[Stormwolf64]

Was already asked and answered: no plans to bring it back.

And it should stay dead. Don't need any neckbeards lording over the raid by giving loot to whomever cleans their butt the best. Mount, legendary etc will always be ninjaed or forcibly told to guildies that certain officer or gm deserves it first. Screw that noise and i guess blizzard thinks the same.

[Revamp Man]

It was around in WoD but it wasn't as bad. Tolerable even.

The best design was in MoP.

Warforge = 5 iLevel.
Titanforge = 10 iLevel.

If your loot did not War/Titan proc then it came like this:

Ions Cuck Chastity Belt
iLevel 420
0/2 upgrades


You could use Valor points to upgrade the item twice - for a total of 10 iLevels. You could offset your bad luck and be on the same playing field as people who hit the jackpot.

Titanforging didn’t exist in MoP
You got thunder forging into war forging once SoO came out

It was only ever a 6ilvl increase from base

I thought maybe you were thinking of the elite gear from terrace but just remembered that thunder forging came after so idk what you are smoking to think any of that happened

[DemonDays]

Titanforging didn’t exist in MoP
You got thunder forging into war forging once SoO came out

It was only ever a 6ilvl increase from base

I thought maybe you were thinking of the elite gear from terrace but just remembered that thunder forging came after so idk what you are smoking to think any of that happened

Oh sorry. I got the name mixed up and I got the numbers slightly wrong.

0/2 upgrades for 6 iLevel total.


My point still stands.

[kaminaris]

It is true that in BFA TF was quite irrelevant, because now there are essences and corruptions that alone can do like 40% of your dps.

Corruption replaced titanforging because people complained about it. Instead of having 0.5% dps increase on titanforges you now have ~15% dps upgrades.

It is quite interesting that something that happened quite recently is already forgotten. At the start of BFA you actually didn't have your entire neckless unlocked and so the gear that dropped from raids and high m+ had their traits inactive, as those required you to have certain level of neckless. The better content you did the more you had to grind because your gear was otherwise inactive and did nothing besides the passive stats. Targeting loot was also one of the big issues in the beginning, because those azertie traits were rebalanced literally every week, forcing you to constantly change your gear. And it wasn't easy to get the item and azerite traits you actually wanted, especially at ilvl (TF) that was good for you. That is why the vendor you mention was added in patch 8.1.

That just didn't happen, at start of the expansion all your major dps rings were already unlocked even if you upgraded azerite ilvl. With literally zero effort.
Sure, last 2 rings were blocked but nobody gave a shit about those. Unless you like avoided all content that granted you azerite.
Wasn't a problem at all. Acquisition was a problem because it randomly dropped from weekly chest.
It had nothing to do with titanforging.

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i think he means concordance
it was a required grind because krosus was balanced around everyone having it.

in antorus it was a required grind to get all of netherlight so you were grinding a certain relic and hoping it would roll your other trait

I'm well aware it was kinda shit in legion. BfA has this tonned down a lot but people blame BfA for legion issues.
I am fairly positive you can clear entire mythic raid with 75 neck level and not-even-bis essences and not-even-close-to-bis azerite traits.

[DemonDays]

Corruption replaced titanforging because people complained about it. Instead of having 0.5% dps increase on titanforges you now have ~15% dps upgrades.



That just didn't happen, at start of the expansion all your major dps rings were already unlocked even if you upgraded azerite ilvl. With literally zero effort.
Sure, last 2 rings were blocked but nobody gave a shit about those. Unless you like avoided all content that granted you azerite.
Wasn't a problem at all. Acquisition was a problem because it randomly dropped from weekly chest.
It had nothing to do with titanforging.

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I'm well aware it was kinda shit in legion. BfA has this tonned down a lot but people blame BfA for legion issues.
I am fairly positive you can clear entire mythic raid with 75 neck level and not-even-bis essences and not-even-close-to-bis azerite traits.

Well done. Good job attempting to re-write history.

You absolutely did not have all Azerite rings unlocked in 8.0. It was a complete slog to do so and if you got the exact same Azerite piece 5 ilevels higher than the one you had you had to unlock the same traits all over again with another 5 neck levels.


Corruption replaced titanforging because people were(rightly so) sick of seeing people win the lottery and get insane iLevel bumps. They were sick of feeling like the hardest content didn't reward the best loot. Corruption replaced titanforging because Ion and his dev team like to claim they're listening to the playerbase but they couldn't let go of their insane lottery slot machine loot design so they made something worse.


Luckily they must see their nose diving sub numbers and have finally conceded that players are right - because they're removing the lot of it.

You're wrong. The devs don't agree with you anymore. Enjoy.

[kaminaris]

Well done. Good job attempting to re-write history.

You absolutely did not have all Azerite rings unlocked in 8.0. It was a complete slog to do so and if you got the exact same Azerite piece 5 ilevels higher than the one you had you had to unlock the same traits all over again with another 5 neck levels.

No, you had all dps ones unlocked after upgrade, only last one and utility one were locked.

Corruption replaced titanforging because people were(rightly so) sick of seeing people win the lottery and get insane iLevel bumps. They were sick of feeling like the hardest content didn't reward the best loot. Corruption replaced titanforging because Ion and his dev team like to claim they're listening to the playerbase but they couldn't let go of their insane lottery slot machine loot design so they made something worse.

That is pure delusion. titanforging wasn't a lottery because if it was, everyone would be millionaires by now. People need to learn statistics and math.
Hardest content rewarded best loot. Titanforging didn't even existed for mythic raids. All you had to get was lucky warforge and poof, max ilvl.
Again, you need to learn difference between slot machine and minor upgrade.
Slot machine exists from vanilla, it's called a loot drop rng.
Titanforging mearly added another layer that instead of winning $1000, you had a chance to win $1025/$1050/$1075 instead.

Luckily they must see their nose diving sub numbers and have finally conceded that players are right - because they're removing the lot of it.

You're wrong. The devs don't agree with you anymore. Enjoy.

What players? You mean the small minority on forums? Judging from corruption and it's experiment as success as Ion called it, you will probably be dissapointed.
Once blizzard realizes mistake and add some mechanic like corruption to gear.

[DemonDays]

What players? You mean the small minority on forums? Judging from corruption and it's experiment as success as Ion called it, you will probably be dissapointed.
Once blizzard realizes mistake and add some mechanic like corruption to gear.

You also enjoy the garbage class design currently in place in BfA.

Seems like Blizzard disagrees with you there too. Actually seems like they disagree with you everywhere.

Sure must be a very loud "vocal minority" if they're finally listening to them and backtracking on literally ALL of their egregious design choices over the years hey?

Unlucky mate.

[kamuimac]

I love how the fanboys are still trying to defend Legion and BfAs shitty loot design even though the developers themselves are now backflipping on all their SHIT choices.

It's almost like the players were right all along.


Fuck I'm enjoying this.

developers spend literaly 1 hour during last blizzcon explasining why they went away from old boring loot model .

but Ion had to force his raiders way into Shadowlands. Guess he was the one behind stages in WoD too.

if he wants to comit public harakiri and be firedbecause of that - be my guest. game will be much healthier without raider as game director.

because we all know it simply wont work - it didnt work in WoD and wont work in WoD 2.0 erm Shadowlands.

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You also enjoy the garbage class design currently in place in BfA.

Seems like Blizzard disagrees with you there too. Actually seems like they disagree with you everywhere.

Sure must be a very loud "vocal minority" if they're finally listening to them and backtracking on literally ALL of their egregious design choices over the years hey?

Unlucky mate.

have you even seen alpha ? almost all classes play 90% the same as they did in BfA. all people are getting is few situational usless buttons.

and the ones that got solid overhaul are universaly hated by playerbase - looking at you balance druids.

[kaminaris]

You also enjoy the garbage class design currently in place in BfA.

Seems like Blizzard disagrees with you there too. Actually seems like they disagree with you everywhere.

No they actually agree with me. Class design didn't get changed much. They just made stuff class wide.
If you think they revolutionized class design then oh boy, you will be dissapointed.

Sure must be a very loud "vocal minority" if they're finally listening to them and backtracking on literally ALL of their egregious design choices over the years hey?

Unlucky mate.

Not really. Aside from static loot most of the previous two modern design choices stayed. M+, world quests, AP, borrowed power, GCD stayed, aoe capped.
I don't know what "all" design choices you meant but I see almost none of them.

And I wouldn't be so sure about gear anyways.

[Shaetha]

I mean no... but also no.

BFA kinda proved once and for all that forever grinds are terrible. The age of skill appears to be starting again and I for one welcome it. While I have issues with how covenants work bringing back balance to rewards is only a good thing for everyone. Except that one weird guy who only world quests or lfrs.

"Forever grinds are terrible"

No, I should not be punished for your lack of self control. There has never been a time where your "forever grind" was actually required. Set a goal. Strive toward that goal. Meet that goal. Repeat if you choose to do so. The game should not need to babysit you by setting your goals for you.

[Laughingjack]

"Forever grinds are terrible"

No, I should not be punished for your lack of self control. There has never been a time where your "forever grind" was actually required. Set a goal. Strive toward that goal. Meet that goal. Repeat if you choose to do so. The game should not need to babysit you by setting your goals for you.

The issue with forever grinds isn't a matter of self control. At best and i mean AT BEST they allow characters to gear far beyond their own progression in terms of skill and stone wall them in content they have zero hope of completing without learning vital lessons form earlier difficulties.

At worst we have corruption where depending on your spec a lucky proc can do more damage then any of your abilities...

[Qck]

It was around in WoD but it wasn't as bad. Tolerable even.

The best design was in MoP.

Warforge = 5 iLevel.
Titanforge = 10 iLevel.

If your loot did not War/Titan proc then it came like this:

Ions Cuck Chastity Belt
iLevel 420
0/2 upgrades


You could use Valor points to upgrade the item twice - for a total of 10 iLevels. You could offset your bad luck and be on the same playing field as people who hit the jackpot.

In all honesty, this is the best system... it keeps you playing to either get full +10 ilvls through drops or through valor, but doesn't provide a ridiculous power spike to people who get lucky on 1-2 items.

It makes too much sense for WoW in 2020, though. Instead of being on the hamster wheel full time, we'll be done with loot in a couple months and have no reason to log on outside of making up the numbers for the raid.

I do fear that even more guilds will die with the whole "let loot be loot" mantra because players won't bother turning up once they have their loot and Blizzard can't find a happy medium between players who want to play all the time and those that want to raidlog only.

[Clozer]

"Forever grinds are terrible"

No, I should not be punished for your lack of self control. There has never been a time where your "forever grind" was actually required. Set a goal. Strive toward that goal. Meet that goal. Repeat if you choose to do so. The game should not need to babysit you by setting your goals for you.

A personal goal has nothing to do with a finish line. Don't get that wrong.

[Shaetha]

The issue with forever grinds isn't a matter of self control. At best and i mean AT BEST they allow characters to gear far beyond their own progression in terms of skill and stone wall them in content they have zero hope of completing without learning vital lessons for earlier difficulties.

At worst we have corruption where depending on your spec a lucky proc can do more damage then any of your abilities...

First: If the players aren't good enough, they don't kill the boss. Let people learn for themselves. Stop asking for the game to babysit. That's really the entire point of it. Players that don't know what they're doing won't kill the boss. Raid Finder is evidence of that. Everyone is geared enough for that content, but they lose anyway. Why? Because they don't try to learn. AND THAT'S FINE. Let players have some accountability instead of doing everything for them.

Second: That argument is specious. You could have argued an issue with balancing(valid for the first few weeks, not anymore) but the argument about gear doing damage is complete nonsense. Your primary stat makes your spells do more damage not meaningfully different from a proc that shows up as super impressive on a spreadsheet. The only difference is the proc makes a different line in the spreadsheet.

Of course, all your arguing is a smokescreen for the real goal, which is making gatekeeping easier. People can't admit they want the game to be simpler so they can have an easier time excluding "undesirables" from a group. That's the only thing that actually changes by removing all the stuff people like you want to remove.

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A personal goal has nothing to do with a finish line. Don't get that wrong.

A personal goal is a finish line for someone who has developed proper life skills. Stop asking to be babysat.

[kamuimac]

First: If the players aren't good enough, they don't kill the boss. Let people learn for themselves. Stop asking for the game to babysit. That's really the entire point of it. Players that don't know what they're doing won't kill the boss. Raid Finder is evidence of that. Everyone is geared enough for that content, but they lose anyway. Why? Because they don't try to learn. AND THAT'S FINE. Let players have some accountability instead of doing everything for them.

Second: That argument is specious. You could have argued an issue with balancing(valid for the first few weeks, not anymore) but the argument about gear doing damage is complete nonsense. Your primary stat makes your spells do more damage not meaningfully different from a proc that shows up as super impressive on a spreadsheet. The only difference is the proc makes a different line in the spreadsheet.

Of course, all your arguing is a smokescreen for the real goal, which is making gatekeeping easier. People can't admit they want the game to be simpler so they can have an easier time excluding "undesirables" from a group. That's the only thing that actually changes by removing all the stuff people like you want to remove.

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A personal goal is a finish line for someone who has developed proper life skills. Stop asking to be babysat.

people never learn .

people dont like dealing with obstacles when playing game.

if game puts to many of them people leave game.

we seen it happen . in Cata. In MoP , in WoD.

instead pretending its gonna be different this time lets discuss about it now instead go in full panic mode 3 months into expansion .

lets get 1 thing straight - yes i think TF worked wonders - but i do also think that MoP Valor system worked even better - if pvpers got their CP gear back lets force blizzard into bringing back VP gear and VP upgrades. to save pugging and mythic + scene from complete collapse with static loot.

lets discuss on how we can get it better - for example make VP work more like CP aka person who comes to game later in patch could potentialy catch up on it instead being capped to 1k a week .

lets put sockets / tertitiary as something which proffesions crafts - becaue proffesions are dead atm .

lets not bring it down to level of "TF was devil vs TF was amazing"

its not about TF - its never been about TF but about systems which let people progress their toons over time without doing hardmode instance content.

because majority of people dont want to do that..

[dapperedodo]

It was around in WoD but it wasn't as bad. Tolerable even.

The best design was in MoP.

Warforge = 5 iLevel.
Titanforge = 10 iLevel.

If your loot did not War/Titan proc then it came like this:

Ions Cuck Chastity Belt
iLevel 420
0/2 upgrades


You could use Valor points to upgrade the item twice - for a total of 10 iLevels. You could offset your bad luck and be on the same playing field as people who hit the jackpot.

MoP only had warforging or thunderforging depending on the patch. And those thing where introduced to reward the people doing the 25 man version of the raid. Titanforging got introduced with the Legion prepatch just to motivate people to run irrelevant stuf. But with the titanforging people could see their dirty world quest item getting upgraded above mythic raid ilvl and some people can't handle that so they farmed every piece of content that dropped loot. So yeah titanforging was only really bad for people that thought they where in a world 1st guild and had no restraint. Now do I care if it's in the game or not? Not really and I think most people don't care either.

[Solero]

Meh. I liked WF/TF. Don't understand why people feel the need to farm for the absolute best possible rolls, no matter how low the chance, only to get burnt out, and then bitch and moan how awfully grindy it all is. I agree that Corruption went a bit too far, but largely because how stupidly powerful they are.

Blizzard couldn't predict how stuck people were on the BiS hunt of old, where WF/TF just doesn't work well with that mindset, but try and try they will anyway.

But no, we are now then going to have an expansion possibly without any of it, and where people will instead whine when there is nothing to do because their gear is already the best possible available at the moment.

In short, stop hitting yourself for being obsessed.

That got quite ranty, but I felt the need to get that off my chest.

People like you are the reason why this loot pinata game became so shit. It ain't fun to endlessly grind an item because it MIGHT titan forge or corrupt. Let loot be loot. Im glad they're doing this.

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How is it, that Blizzard always chooses to listen to the worst suggestions from this playerbase? Turning it all back to static loot is going to be even worse than WoD raid logging btw, because even WoD had Warforging/socket forging. This old loot system will be, without a doubt the end of one of the largest 2 aspects of end game: Mythic+.

Anyone cheering for this now, will be here in a year, bitching about lack of incentive to play the game after having cleared the raid a few times. Is re-clearing the entire raid 20+ times for guildie raider mounts incentive enough in this age where there's hundreds and hundreds of mounts in the game anyways? Is a mount worth that much time investment whilst having next to zero character progression anywhere in the world, save for waiting until next patch to have more character progression?

This will not only kill M+, but also many guilds after clearing raid tiers. Blizzard shouldn't have listened to the morons on this one.

Youre the only moron if you vouch for this absolute dogshit loot system we have now

[Lurker1]

No Titanforging or corruption system in SL!!!
Loot = loot

Going to be funny when they patch in forges that is how it started in Mop lol!