Another Expansion of BOS?

[LCDArcade]

Seems like with this new Hypothermic Presense talent it was specifically made to help keep up BOS. Not saying it can't be used for other things but I for one am frankly tired of this talent always being the best choice that coupled with the fact this will be the 3rd expansion in a row now they haven't added a new talent row...

Now don't get me wrong I think the playstyle is kinda fun but at the same time it would be nice if other talents had a chance to shine, something more interesting.

Hypothermic Presence
Reduce the runic power cost of all abilities by 35% for 8 seconds.

[Bomba the Shaman]

Sadly, it appears we're stuck with breath for the foreseeable future. I hoped they would redesign it to be something like Eye Beam or FoF. A baseline spell to frost on 20-30 sec CD, a channeled ability that cost runic power, modified by talents for different play styles. I would give up Pillar AND RW to have frost be built around something like that.

[Razion]

I like Breath of Sindragossa. I like the mad rush to maintain runic power as long as possible. I'm pretty happy to see Hypothermic Presence.

If I were to have some thoughts for BoS, it'd be that in low-gear situations you're more likely to just dump all your GCDs into Obliterate, and procs like Rime or using Killing Machine on Frostscythe aren't Runic Power positive for the GCD to maintain BoS until much later in the window. It's nice that your rotation changes for BoS so you're not just doing all the same priority all the time, but it can feel a little weird to get the procs and end up using them "as they're normally intended" later. But, to be fair, the more gear you get the more lenient the window becomes and the more you can weave in things like Rime or Killing Machine Frostscythe procs -- especially when you use a lot of your resource generating abilities like Horn of Winter and Empower Rune Weapon to lead to enough Obliterates where you no longer have enough runes to Obliterate to keep RP as close to max as possible but still have time before runes for Obliterate come back that you can use the time on those kinds of procs. I find the relationship between the abilities kind of interesting in this way and I almost think that a talent like Inexorable Assault, if it were to consume multiple stacks during Breath of Sindragossa windows, would almost kind of reward you for saving the Killing Machine proc for Frostscythe for that high RP low rune part of the BoS window. The only way I could see something like Glacial Advance ever being positive for BoS is if it maybe applied all 5 stacks of Razorice instead of just one to all the targets, so that even if you lost two potential Breath ticks, you would gain that damage multiplier from Razorice on ALL the upcoming ticks, so maybe it could end up being damage-positive that way... assuming of course, that the tempo of losing all that extra runic power on Glacial Advance wouldn't result in you being barren of RP before you could replace it and also of course assuming that spreading Razorice with Obliterate isn't applying enough Razorice to everything by itself anyway. One thing that also strikes me is that Runic Attenuation having a "chance" to get you RP on melee hits, and along with Icy Talons refreshing and being maintained by Breath of Sindragossa in concept sounds like a good source of RP coming in constantly, but in practice the reality I think maybe because of the nature of the chance of Runic Attenuation maybe being tied to something like procs per minute or something it doesn't end up benefiting as much from Frost Talons and haste as much so that the BoS synergy is lessened so that the other less synergistic talents on the row could shine with the build. However, part of me thinks that if the synergy was there, you could probably end up maintaining BoS almost passively indefinitely so maybe they intentionally adjusted it like that to prevent it from doing that.

Lot to consider with Breath of Sindragossa. There's a lot to appreciate about it, I think. I do miss Frostscythe not applying Razorice for it, though, for those periods where you could use it during the window.

[infinitemeridian]

Sadly, it appears we're stuck with breath for the foreseeable future. I hoped they would redesign it to be something like Eye Beam or FoF. A baseline spell to frost on 20-30 sec CD, a channeled ability that cost runic power, modified by talents for different play styles. I would give up Pillar AND RW to have frost be built around something like that.

I would love something like this and feel it's a good way to make frost more interesting as a spec baseline, while also more forgiving. I really like the deathknight fantasy and frost especially, but I don't find BoS very fun to play, not only because I find it annoying / difficult to manage (yes, I'm a casual) but also because the spec feels incredibly boring outside of it.

[Saltysquidoon]

I like Breath of Sindragossa. I like the mad rush to maintain runic power as long as possible. I'm pretty happy to see Hypothermic Presence.

I appreciate you like BoS, different strokes and all that.
My argument on the other side of the coin is that frost needs work, having a talent that completely changes the way the spec plays and [blizzard] encouraging the building of an entire playstyle about that shows that pretty clearly.
In the absence of BoS frost just essentially casts hit, there is no interactivity and nothing to play around. BoS is simply a band aid for a pec that hasn't had the work it needed put into since cata.

[Razion]

I appreciate you like BoS, different strokes and all that.
My argument on the other side of the coin is that frost needs work, having a talent that completely changes the way the spec plays and [blizzard] encouraging the building of an entire playstyle about that shows that pretty clearly.
In the absence of BoS frost just essentially casts hit, there is no interactivity and nothing to play around. BoS is simply a band aid for a pec that hasn't had the work it needed put into since cata.

So basically you want to be able to cast free Frost Strikes during Breath of Sindragossa? They'd probably make Breath and Frost Strike weaker for the duration of BoS in that case (and also the chance at getting runes back for each). I can't say I'd be against having to find those free GCDs where you can weave in weaker free Frost Strikes. It also kind of gives you something to do when you run out of Runes to keep RP capped.

[TheRainman]

Seems like with this new Hypothermic Presense talent it was specifically made to help keep up BOS. Not saying it can't be used for other things but I for one am frankly tired of this talent always being the best choice that coupled with the fact this will be the 3rd expansion in a row now they haven't added a new talent row...

Now don't get me wrong I think the playstyle is kinda fun but at the same time it would be nice if other talents had a chance to shine, something more interesting.

Hypothermic Presence
Reduce the runic power cost of all abilities by 35% for 8 seconds.

I liked the playstyle at first, but it's been the best for so long, I got tired of it to the point where it killed frost for me, and I went unholy. It was either that or a new class. I just cant bring myself to get back into frost with the current iteration.

[docterfreeze]

Just needs better competition on the level 100 row. Make obliteration emulate the MoP/WoD 2h playstyle, make icecap emulate the MoP/WoD dual wield playstyle, and tune properly.

[Shadowsgrace]

Seems like with this new Hypothermic Presense talent it was specifically made to help keep up BOS. Not saying it can't be used for other things but I for one am frankly tired of this talent always being the best choice that coupled with the fact this will be the 3rd expansion in a row now they haven't added a new talent row...

Now don't get me wrong I think the playstyle is kinda fun but at the same time it would be nice if other talents had a chance to shine, something more interesting.

Hypothermic Presence
Reduce the runic power cost of all abilities by 35% for 8 seconds.

I guess you now see how Mages feel with Ring of Power being "set it and forget it" since it was added to the game. Lucky for you BoS is a lot less clunky to use.

[sephro22]

I feel like they should make breath have an interaction with remorseless winter. Have remorseless build stacks with each hit then you use breath and damage is based on how many stacks you got. It has a fixed cost and duration but with larger packs it deals greater damage. Ice cap should have the azerite trait frostwhelp built into it for a little aoe damage. Obliterate I was thinking 2 things either frost strike causes a debuffs stacking to 2 and obliterate consumers them getting a big damage increase for the duration of the obliterate buff....or obliterate consume frost fever or a portion of it do deal that portion of damage as frost. The longer left on frost fever the more is consumed and the higher the damage. This way you have breath as a pure aoe. Obliterate as single target. And ice cap as an in between

[Hctaz]

I appreciate you like BoS, different strokes and all that.
My argument on the other side of the coin is that frost needs work, having a talent that completely changes the way the spec plays and [blizzard] encouraging the building of an entire playstyle about that shows that pretty clearly.
In the absence of BoS frost just essentially casts hit, there is no interactivity and nothing to play around. BoS is simply a band aid for a pec that hasn't had the work it needed put into since cata.

This has been my main argument for and against BoS. The spec needs BoS because it doesn't have any other payoff at all aside from Gathering Storm. The specs needs SOMETHING to do other than press buttons when you can press buttons. But BoS is so divisive that it shouldn't be baseline. There are ways I think they could make it baseline without killing off everybody's enjoyment of the spec.

Honestly I say make Gathering Storm and BoS baseline. Give BoS a maximum time but not a minimum time. I think the problem with Breath is there isn't a "goal" to hit. No matter how well you did during your Breath, there will usually always be a time somebody did better. "Good enough" isn't a good feeling.

Make it a long enough amount of time that you still have to use your brain to not drop it early, but make sure the cap is easily attainable enough.

Back in Legion i suggested a 30 second maximum. I don't know what would be reasonable.

[Saltysquidoon]

So basically you want to be able to cast free Frost Strikes during Breath of Sindragossa? They'd probably make Breath and Frost Strike weaker for the duration of BoS in that case (and also the chance at getting runes back for each). I can't say I'd be against having to find those free GCDs where you can weave in weaker free Frost Strikes. It also kind of gives you something to do when you run out of Runes to keep RP capped.

No, I want frost to have something to do aside from building and spending when BoS isn't the optimal talent.

In its base form, the spec is bare and lacks anything to do except cast blue hit, grey hit or wind hit when it lights up (and sometimes grey hit lights up too). It used to be you at least had to ensure you had both diseases on the target for max oblit damage (im not saying this is 7d chess tier but at least sometimes BP dropped off if you had your eyes closed). You had to prep oblit windows by flipping blood runes, it was a pain but when you got those 3 oblits strung together it was a reward for playing well.

I suspect blizzard agrees that frost needs work but for some reason are unable or unwilling to put in the effort. Making FWF baseline is another bandaid to give you that big omph moment but even that's set and forget. Which is why they push BoS so hard to make it 'feel' like an actual spec because BoS has things to watch and skill expression, but the issue there is the entire spec shouldn't be built around such a divisive talent.

[Razion]

No, I want frost to have something to do aside from building and spending when BoS isn't the optimal talent.

In its base form, the spec is bare and lacks anything to do except cast blue hit, grey hit or wind hit when it lights up (and sometimes grey hit lights up too). It used to be you at least had to ensure you had both diseases on the target for max oblit damage (im not saying this is 7d chess tier but at least sometimes BP dropped off if you had your eyes closed). You had to prep oblit windows by flipping blood runes, it was a pain but when you got those 3 oblits strung together it was a reward for playing well.

I suspect blizzard agrees that frost needs work but for some reason are unable or unwilling to put in the effort. Making FWF baseline is another bandaid to give you that big omph moment but even that's set and forget. Which is why they push BoS so hard to make it 'feel' like an actual spec because BoS has things to watch and skill expression, but the issue there is the entire spec shouldn't be built around such a divisive talent.

I don't think the disease-modified Obliterate ended up being as interesting. Either the diseases always stayed on and were just passive, with Obliterate hitting like a wet noodle without them and crippling your potential for those initial GCDs where your damage is the negligible first ticks of the DoTs, or the diseases would be consumed - and while this would be cool for AoE when you swap from target to target to break them - and you would still just be adding unnecessary, un-fun ramp. The old runes were also very restrictive, and would prevent DKs from reacting to situations where they needed specific runes to do certain things - death runes were made universal to introduce complexity in other areas of the spec, while giving the DK freedom in moment to moment ability usage and I think was ultimately right for player choice and even ultimately for player mastery. With disease-breaking, the spec would be a lot more predictable than it is now and I think only exacerbates the problem back to what it was and especially in the current state of the game would only be treading already solved problems. But this doesn't mean disease-breaking can't ever work.

As a talent, breaking diseases may be okay. And especially when it slows the spec down so much I think people would be even more mad than BoS during periods when it is optimal - unless it's over-tuned so much to the point to make Obliterate hit so hard that it cripples the individual action to make the spec only really care about that moment when you break with Obliterate and nothing else. And saying nothing for how people would view it as a one-button-important spec at that point, I think the real eventual problem it would lead to would be how little your other abilities would end up mattering would be far more critical. This is why also, that Frost was moved away from the old Masterfrost style where Howling Blast was key - it was basically a one-button spec. Was it fun then? Sure. And while I didn't agree with the move away from Masterfrost when it was first done, I do think now the spec is in a better place with things like Frostscythe adding more.

If the desire is coming from a want for added complexity, that currently exists in talents, but maybe just doesn't hit right because one ability isn't compelling enough. I'd rather see a solution provided to fix or altogether change Breath of Sindragossa for people who currently don't like it rather than change how the spec functions on a base level. And if that means that Breath of Sindragossa turns into a disease-breaking talent, I think that would be fine, but I don't think making that base-line to the spec fixes any kind of issue except making it slower and more passive. Which, is probably fine in a really long CD sort of situation... but not core to the rotation.

There's also kind of an issue with Unholy already having the debuff-breaking fantasy already being fulfilled. Unholy already applies its own form of a diseased debuff that you break off for more damage. And they solved the issue of the DoTs not having full benefit or doing any initial burst by tying them as just a debuff to an already damaging ability. For equivalency sake, let's say Howling Blast gave Frosted Wound (as well as Frost Fever), and casting Obliterate would break the Wound. Does Unholy suddenly need a redesign then?

I think it's fine and even fun when talents can change up your entire play-style. And I'd even argue that every spec should have one core talent that really changes up the gameplay to the extent BoS does. For people that don't like how a spec functions it should be available to them options to change it so they can still enjoy the spec fantasy while still tailoring the gameplay to fit their style. And I think it's more a reflection on balancing not allowing players to choose whatever in the row they wanted than anything else.

[Saltysquidoon]

With respect to the effort you clearly put into your lengthy post, I don't think you saw the thrust of my argument. My argument wasn't oblit should interact with diseases, it was in the absence of BoS Frost lacks depth and complexity.

I look at complexity as a measure of how many buttons your press and complexity as how often you have to hit to right buttons (or how the spec is interwoven). An outside dk example of this is giving Slice and Dice back to muti rogues; It's true they have one more button to hit to make their numbers go up ('complexity'), but nothing in their kit benefits actively benefits from white swings so there's no need to think about it or how it's going to affect your play thus it effectively adds no depth.

If we use this metric on frost I think it makes my argument clearer. No one is going to argue frost is a complex spec, it simply isn't it doesn't have a lot of buttons to press that's not what worries me.
My problem is frost (outside of BoS) also entirely lacks depth, there is simply no interactivity between your abilities, none of them benefit from each other. Frost strike doesn't interact with KM anymore so there's not even a chance to fuck that up. FF will never fall off so there's no element of dot management (not that it ever was or should be a huge part of frost, purely an example). At its core right now Frost is a build/spend with absolutely no twist, you dont care when shit lights up because you can't fuck up.

BoS, of course, changes this, but it is a talent and it's divisive and a spec shouldn't rely on a talent for it sole source of interaction.

[findinghours]

Just needs better competition on the higher level row.

[Heph47]

I guess you now see how Mages feel with Ring of Power being "set it and forget it" since it was added to the game. Lucky for you BoS is a lot less clunky to use.

Clunky is a terrible adjective to use when describing how something feels and doesn't mean what you think it does. Did you mean cumbersome? The use of clunky to describe things in WoW needs to die


Clunky
solid, heavy, and old-fashioned.
"even last year's laptops look clunky"

making a clunking sound.
"clunky conveyor belts"

[Shadowsgrace]

Clunky is a terrible adjective to use when describing how something feels and doesn't mean what you think it does. Did you mean cumbersome? The use of clunky to describe things in WoW needs to die


Clunky
solid, heavy, and old-fashioned.
"even last year's laptops look clunky"

making a clunking sound.
"clunky conveyor belts"

I do know it's Definition, I did go to school, and Ring of Power is as clunky an ability as there ever will be.

[Heph47]

I do know it's Definition, I did go to school, and Ring of Power is as clunky an ability as there ever will be.

epic facepalm, if you went to school, think a little bit harder and use an adjective that means.. well, anything at all

[Shadowsgrace]

epic facepalm, if you went to school, think a little bit harder and use an adjective that means.. well, anything at all

If that's the case mate, you forgot the "awkwardly solid" part of your definition, which is part of why clunky gets used to describe abilities. But I assume you left that off on purpose.