Fairly certain developers dont play Outlaw rogue (shadowlands changes)

[Big Thanks]

I have high hopes for the changes, they with this change they can buff outlaw dmg so its not tied into our long cc and allows for outlaw to be a better pvp spec ( sub/ass will almost always be better for pvp but that doesnt mean outlaw cant have be decent). Time will tell I guess.

Ahah, from a person that is constantly nerfed by Blizzard, never get excited about "damage" (my opinion)

"Damage" will always be tuned to accommodate "Blizzard's vision" of the game.

Subtlety will always be crap for PvE because we want it to be -by Blizzard
Demonology Warlock cant be the top performance warlock spec -by blizzard
etc

Only get excited about "utility" and "fun things" you can do.
Utility can very hardly be nerfed.

And we are watching Outlaw losing a huge utility tool...a ranged stun with low cd.
Sad story

I will allow you to have "hope" for the damage...but be ready for disappointment.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

You think this because you don't know anything about how classes are developed.

There are dozens of people working on classes and their various outputs and theory.
They are not "developers." They do not make the game.
They are combat and class leads and have other people under them too.

You may disagree with their collective decision and that is a normal response.
Some one on the team likely disagrees with it too.

But that's what it means to be part of a team.

[Gasparde]

It was a huge RANGED, DAMAGING, Low CD, STUN.

Totally can't see any problems with that.

[Chickat]

The new Roll the Bones might be a bigger issue imo. It's now a cd instead of a finisher... but it will cost 50 freaking energy.

Yeah but you already have 75% uptime, and abilities will reduce the cd of it. It is the same ability, just that now you cant spam it for the buffs you want. I also found having to reroll multiple times to be an annoyance. This way we still get the flavor every 30-40 seconds which is a good place for it imo.

[Big Thanks]

You think this because you don't know anything about how classes are developed.

There are dozens of people working on classes and their various outputs and theory.
They are not "developers." They do not make the game.
They are combat and class leads and have other people under them too.

You may disagree with their collective decision and that is a normal response.
Some one on the team likely disagrees with it too.

But that's what it means to be part of a team.

Hi Metro

Is just hard for me to understand this decision...but im a PvP'er and (for me) a ranged low cd stun was the absolute beating heart of the entire spec (in pvp)

To further explain myself i also want to tell you:
This decision was a nerf to utility...without giving us extra utility from somewhere else

This means:
The only possible way there will be a redeeming factor to this....is if they give us more damage.

The only way this will fix itself...is if we get more damage.
If we dont...its a nerf to the entire class.

Im hoping for the best...

[Garymorilix]

My question is...how is even Between the Eyes going to crit and do 4 times more damage...if we cant spam roll the bones....and the ability itself is what improves our crit?

Arrrgh...im having an headache with this design!

- - - Updated - - -



I thought i was pretty clear...
I dont want to have 2 stuns.
I dont want kidney shot AND between the eyes.

Between the eyes WAS our kidney shot

edit: It 100% is a nerf in utility...the numbers....the numbers are the only thing that can change in our spec with this change.

Blizzard does not care what you want.

Their design philosophy is pretty clear for Shadowlands.

Throwing a tantrum wont change that.

[Kemsa]

Why do i think this?

Because Between the Eyes was the button that felt the greatest to press (specially in PvP)
It was a huge RANGED, DAMAGING, Low CD, STUN.

Did you ever press any button more satisfying than this? It was the greatest thing of Outlaw PvP

Another point:
Why is between the eyes even a "ranged spell" in shadowlands.....Why?

Is a debuff for you to do more damage! ROFLMAO
Why would you want to do it RANGED !?!??!

It feel great..... having your 3 stacked traits of Azerite Gear. Guess whats being removed on Shadowlands...
Then how you unprune a "spec/class" that finally got an identity on Legion. Well they ROLLBACKED Outlaw to be Sword Combat from Vanilla/tbc without exposing armor so what Skill its filling the emptyness of Expose armor without making Outlaw a must be on every raid/party group.
What stats Outlaw always look and dumps mastery aside? Crit. What ability was introduced on Legion that can fill the roll of Expose armor?

BtE

Thats their phylosophy arround outlaw on Shadowlands, build combo points, use Flurry, dot all the adds (yes you with flurry you can dot all the enemies with BtE idk if its suppose to work like that) AR then RtB then combo combo SnD then comb comb dispatch the BtE again, pistol shot on proc. Boomb. The rest of the damage comes from Instant Poison, JUST LIKE CLASSIC. Probably weapons with special effects are going to be bis over high ilvl ones and maybe mastery will be better, depending on the "SOON" talent that we dont know yet.

Its a nerf and a buff, a change of playstyle.

Ou i forgot to tell ya.... we have shiv for pvp now, so we are no longer be a joke for the other specs.

[StillMcfuu]

The new Roll the Bones might be a bigger issue imo. It's now a cd instead of a finisher... but it will cost 50 freaking energy.

The old RTB cost hundreds of energy, this one is an improvement in both usability and class fit.

Also BTE may be better this way because you aren't wasting unnecessary stun DR on an ability that is core to rotation.

[Big Thanks]

It feel great..... having your 3 stacked traits of Azerite Gear. Guess whats being removed on Shadowlands...
Then how you unprune a "spec/class" that finally got an identity on Legion. Well they ROLLBACKED Outlaw to be Sword Combat from Vanilla/tbc without exposing armor so what Skill its filling the emptyness of Expose armor without making Outlaw a must be on every raid/party group.
What stats Outlaw always look and dumps mastery aside? Crit. What ability was introduced on Legion that can fill the roll of Expose armor?

BtE

Thats their phylosophy arround outlaw on Shadowlands, build combo points, use Flurry, dot all the adds (yes you with flurry you can dot all the enemies with BtE idk if its suppose to work like that) AR then RtB then combo combo SnD then comb comb dispatch the BtE again, pistol shot on proc. Boomb. The rest of the damage comes from Instant Poison, JUST LIKE CLASSIC. Probably weapons with special effects are going to be bis over high ilvl ones and maybe mastery will be better, depending on the "SOON" talent that we dont know yet.

Its a nerf and a buff, a change of playstyle.

Ou i forgot to tell ya.... we have shiv for pvp now, so we are no longer be a joke for the other specs.

You see whats going on? We are talking damage numbers...and damage usually means nothing.
Damage is always adjusted by Blizzard in their vision of the game.

This new ability......this new BtE.....COULD mean we finally get burst damage in PvP. Finally!!!!!!!!!!!
Or not.

Blizzard put us in the position that now we have to pray to Blizzard's baby Jesus balance team...

They removed utility in the name of damage <---------------this is what they did
We lost a huge utility tool (and the heart of the spec, Imo) and we got....NOT another utility tool, but a damage tool

Do you trust Blizzard to adjust the numbers correctly for PvP to make the spec...a "good" spec?
Will Blizzards "vision" match ours?
I dont trust them
Why?
Just look at outlaw rogue in PvP now. (damage wise)

[Kemsa]

You see whats going on? We are talking damage numbers...and damage usually means nothing.
Damage is always adjusted by Blizzard in their vision of the game.

This new ability......this new BtE.....COULD mean we finally get burst damage in PvP. Finally!!!!!!!!!!!
Or not.

Blizzard put us in the position that now we have to pray to Blizzard's baby Jesus balance team...

They removed utility in the name of damage <---------------this is what they did
We lost a huge utility tool (and the heart of the spec, Imo) and we got....NOT another utility tool, but a damage tool

Do you trust Blizzard to adjust the numbers correctly for PvP to make the spec...a "good" spec?
Will Blizzards "vision" match ours?
I dont trust them
Why?
Just look at outlaw rogue in PvP now. (damage wise)

dude.

BtE + flurry = BLOOD OF THE ENEMY didnt you see?? literally its BotE
You want utility?? YOU HAVE KIDNEY BACK, wtf are you talking about, they just removed a worthless stun to put it into a better cc. While the other its just BLOOD OF THE FUCKING ENEMY jesuschrist.

what more do you want.. i knew that with shadowlands people are going to miss all that powercreep from Essences, AG and soon corruptions. God you make me mad men.

[Big Thanks]

dude.

BtE + flurry = BLOOD OF THE ENEMY didnt you see?? literally its BotE
You want utility?? YOU HAVE KIDNEY BACK, wtf are you talking about, they just removed a worthless stun to put it into a better cc. While the other its just BLOOD OF THE FUCKING ENEMY jesuschrist.

what more do you want.. i knew that with shadowlands people are going to miss all that powercreep from Essences, AG and soon corruptions. God you make me mad men.

In what world is kidney shot a better cc than between the eyes...(-_-)
Explain to me how a ranged instant cast stun for 6 seconds is worse than kidney....

[Eazy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVXT_j0Qmjs

and several other yotubers

Thanks, just checked it out.

I think that sometimes Blizzard really reads my posts/thread on their official forums because I wanted RtB to actually be CD that doesn't spend combo points. :-|
(same goes for the changes in Kingsbane ability and Vendetta)

Anyway... I like that change, I just don't like SnD being back for Assassination. It's gonna be even more complicated for PvP. But I guess it's thread about Outlaw?
I'd like to see how it'll perform in SL M+. It's too soon to speculate because we don't have any numbers and proper gear(and traits?).

[deathshere]

Why do i think this?

Because Between the Eyes was the button that felt the greatest to press (specially in PvP)
It was a huge RANGED, DAMAGING, Low CD, STUN.

Did you ever press any button more satisfying than this? It was the greatest thing of Outlaw PvP

Another point:
Why is between the eyes even a "ranged spell" in shadowlands.....Why?

Is a debuff for you to do more damage! ROFLMAO
Why would you want to do it RANGED !?!??!

fairly certain devs dont even play this game.

[Biomega]

It was obvious Between the Eyes would get nerfed, and deservedly so. A ranged stun that also deals insane damage is bad enough in terms of balancing, having it be part of the regular rotation just screws with it even more. Decoupling the stun and the damage works far better overall.

In PvE, the last thing Outlaw needs is more dungeon utility. It's already a busted M+ spec. Nerfs are SORELY needed so other specs can compete better.

In PvP, you can easily balance things via PvP talents if it's really needed. But from what I've read, Between the Eyes was never exactly highly praised in PvP either. I can easily see why having a ranged stun + burst ability on a Rogue could be something you'd rather not have to deal with in PvP.

That's not to say they've "fixed" Outlaw to be perfect, of course. I'm sure there's tons of problems left, just like with all the other classes/specs. If anything, criticize the Devs for not putting more work into fixing what was arguably the biggest complaint about BFA - class balance, flavor, rotation, mechanics, etc. Instead, we get a team working on bringing us Autochess. Yay.

[Big Thanks]

@Eazy @Biomega

If you ever played Outlaw in PvP...the one and only redeeming factor of the entire spec is a ranged stun with low cd.
Is quite literally the only thing that makes the spec feel amazing.

Blizzard removed this utility...for reasons unknown

Outlaw is now left without utility in PvP....and the ONE and ONLY way this will end up in a happy story...is if Outlaw has insane damage comparable to assassination.
Because they removed our entire utility...and all that is left is DAMAGE

Im not a big fan in living on a prayer Blizzard will tune the damage numbers within my vision....its always in their vision
And you know what is their vision for Outlaw PvP in BfA? Absolute crap damage.

[ymirsson]

Ok, Outlaw had one thing worthy of mentioning, BtE, the ultimate ranged stun, which was why you played it? And now that Blizzard changed it, all that is left is damage?

Dude, did you ever open your spellbook? and looked at all the stuff after "B"? It's sorted alphabetically, there comes the rest of it after.

[Biomega]

If you ever played Outlaw in PvP...the one and only redeeming factor of the entire spec is a ranged stun with low cd.
Is quite literally the only thing that makes the spec feel amazing.

Blizzard removed this utility...for reasons unknown

No, the reasons are very much known - it was a ranged stun with burst damage, on a fairly short cooldown. That's just not an okay thing to have around in PvP, and makes balancing the meta harder.

Outlaw is now left without utility in PvP....and the ONE and ONLY way this will end up in a happy story...is if Outlaw has insane damage comparable to assassination.
Because they removed our entire utility...and all that is left is DAMAGE

We have literally no idea how the PvP meta will pan out in SL, what they'll do in terms of PvP balancing with talents of whatnot, how the numbers will be tuned, etc. Rogues have always had insane BASELINE utility in PvP already, putting more on top of that - doubly so if it's something problematic like a low-CD ranged stun+burst ability - opens up space for balancing.

And don't pretend Kindey Shot doesn't exist - all that Outlaw lost was the RANGED component, and the damage rolled into the stun. Neither of which was a good thing to exist on what is already one of the more problematic melees to balance in PvP.

I'm all for making arguments and giving feedback for Alpha changes, but please make actual arguments. Yelling "they LITERALLY removed EVERYTHING!!!1111oneoneone" is not helping anyone. Least of all Rogues themselves.

[Big Thanks]

No, the reasons are very much known - it was a ranged stun with burst damage, on a fairly short cooldown. That's just not an okay thing to have around in PvP, and makes balancing the meta harder.


We have literally no idea how the PvP meta will pan out in SL, what they'll do in terms of PvP balancing with talents of whatnot, how the numbers will be tuned, etc. Rogues have always had insane BASELINE utility in PvP already, putting more on top of that - doubly so if it's something problematic like a low-CD ranged stun+burst ability - opens up space for balancing.

And don't pretend Kindey Shot doesn't exist - all that Outlaw lost was the RANGED component, and the damage rolled into the stun. Neither of which was a good thing to exist on what is already one of the more problematic melees to balance in PvP.

I'm all for making arguments and giving feedback for Alpha changes, but please make actual arguments. Yelling "they LITERALLY removed EVERYTHING!!!1111oneoneone" is not helping anyone. Least of all Rogues themselves.

Ok Biomega im 100% sure you never played Outlaw in PvP.
Thanks for your feedback.

If you ever played outlaw in pvp you would know how bad it is already

And im a friggin pro when it comes to Blizzards balancing team...i know them better than my mother.
I know the Blizzards balancing team better than myself

When it comes down to the balance of numbers, you are setting yourself for disappointment.

Living on a prayer quite literally.

I lived on a prayer in BfA...look where we are at? At the bottom of the bottom of the crap hole.
Why do you think still no one posted a link to the performance of Outlaw in arenas.
Guess why
Because is non existant. Thats why

This is what happens when you expect Blizzards balancing team to "fix damage numbers" on a prayer their vision will fit yours.
I know this better than anyone, because, again, i know the balancing team better than anyone in the world.

[Nervyz]

[QUOTE=Shadoowpunk;52254618]@Eazy @Biomega

If you ever played Outlaw in PvP...the one and only redeeming factor of the entire spec is a ranged stun with low cd.
Is quite literally the only thing that makes the spec feel amazing.

Blizzard removed this utility...for reasons unknown

Outlaw is now left without utility in PvP....and the ONE and ONLY way this will end up in a happy story...is if Outlaw has insane damage comparable to assassination.
Because they removed our entire utility...and all that is left is DAMAGE

As much as I agree with lackluster changes for rogue pvp that's been announced so far, losing the ranged stun is indeed some for of utility gone, however! There will be more niche and skill game play with it becoming kidney shot and the new reworked model, where you will not just be tunneling stuff down, but will have to set-up your damage, a good change imho. Apart from that, OL still has gouge, cheap shot, kidney shot and disarm on relative short cooldowns.

OL has been niche in pvp 90% of the times, and that's fine. We will now have shiv as utility (yes, this is a utility skill). For me, OL has had the most relevant and positive changes of rogues in general, followed by assa and then Subt.

I think I speak for many people, when I say that we'd rather see them make more significant changes for Subt pvp's utility. Only cheapshot and kidney shot feel really underwhelming considering all the stuff warriors/enha (e.g.) are getting back.

[Biomega]

I know this better than anyone, because, again, i know the balancing team better than anyone in the world.

My bad, I thought we were having an actual discussion.

I'm glad we have people like you on the job, the future is looking bright. No way that Blizzard doesn't listen to thoughtful and constructive feedback like that.