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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    What, if I wanna climb rating with my main I can't be serious? That's a load of crock, if you forgive my french.
    I mean, everything is possible, doesn't mean it's efficient. You can try to climb the M+ ladder as dps disc priest and perhaps do well in the right conditions, but there are, let's say... better choices. I also am not sure if we mean the same by "serious". But anyway, you're free to do whatever you want with your main

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Well, yeah. Boomkin hasn't been viable part of PvP meta since ever.
    Fotm not really, but it has had good comps over the years.
    Most PvPers who want to reach things like rank 1 obviously take the better class, even if its only slightly better (just like WF guilds in PvE), to achieve it. And with that history it just means there aren't that many top PvPers who even want to try out the spec if it isn't obviously better than other options (like when innervate trait was broken af)

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    but we're talking about almost an 1k difference in dps at this point with venthyr + boat doing 6.1k currently and NF + Pulsar lagging at 5.3k. The latter build also uses New Moon.
    If I got that correct, you are suggesting that choosing the wrong convent is a 13% dps loss?

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelathos View Post
    If I got that correct, you are suggesting that choosing the wrong convent is a 13% dps loss?
    No, not exactly. This quote is about the difference between the top build which is Venthyr (Ravenous Frenzy) plus the legendary named Balance On All Things (or boat for short) plus Fury of Elune and being Night Fae, using the Pulsar legendary (the one where every 300 AP spent grants you CA/Incarn for a short time) and using New Moon as a talent. Between those 2 setups, there's that much of a difference, yes.

    Night Fae is third in single target when all the covenants are used in combination with Balance's top legendary which is boat. Venthyr is first, Kyrian is second with a 2% difference and NF is third with 3% difference from Kyrian (so 5-6% from Venthyr). Necrolord is NOT 4th by any means, since Necro+boat only shows up in the sims after Venthyr + any other legendary combo besides Lycara's which it barely surpasses.

    Edit: and after all that, NF(CtS)+NM+Pulsar shows up.
    Last edited by Well; 2020-09-16 at 06:38 AM.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    No, not exactly. This quote is about the difference between the top build which is Venthyr (Ravenous Frenzy) plus the legendary named Balance On All Things (or boat for short) plus Fury of Elune and being Night Fae, using the Pulsar legendary (the one where every 300 AP spent grants you CA/Incarn for a short time) and using New Moon as a talent. Between those 2 setups, there's that much of a difference, yes.

    Night Fae is third in single target when all the covenants are used in combination with Balance's top legendary which is boat. Venthyr is first, Kyrian is second with a 2% difference and NF is third with 3% difference from Kyrian (so 5-6% from Venthyr). Necrolord is NOT 4th by any means, since Necro+boat only shows up in the sims after Venthyr + any other legendary combo besides Lycara's which it barely surpasses.

    Edit: and after all that, NF(CtS)+NM+Pulsar shows up.
    You know you can click the legendary+covenant combo to see the difference between talent combinations when that clicked legendary+covenant combo is used. The fact that NM shows up in the "best talent combo for covenant+legendary" list just means it is the best talent for that combination. Opening those up one by one also show that NM isn't far behind other options - it is more behind for Venthyr and Necrolord due to how their covenant abilities work (venthyr wants fast casts to get damage up --> full moon is "bad" and Necrolord afaik counts FoE as a dot).
    I'm not interested enough to build sims and see if I can get the APL be better (since I did see some funny stuff going on in example charts) so I'm just going to assume they're not fully optimal (tbh they rarely are) which is why you should take small differences with a grain of salt.

    Like I've seen you boast around about "people with brains think THIS way", yet I can see only logical flaws everywhere. Only thing that holds true is that Venthyr sims the highest for ST and MT in 4 -6min fights

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    You know you can click the legendary+covenant combo to see the difference between talent combinations when that clicked legendary+covenant combo is used. The fact that NM shows up in the "best talent combo for covenant+legendary" list just means it is the best talent for that combination. Opening those up one by one also show that NM isn't far behind other options - it is more behind for Venthyr and Necrolord due to how their covenant abilities work (venthyr wants fast casts to get damage up --> full moon is "bad" and Necrolord afaik counts FoE as a dot).
    I'm not interested enough to build sims and see if I can get the APL be better (since I did see some funny stuff going on in example charts) so I'm just going to assume they're not fully optimal (tbh they rarely are) which is why you should take small differences with a grain of salt.

    Like I've seen you boast around about "people with brains think THIS way", yet I can see only logical flaws everywhere. Only thing that holds true is that Venthyr sims the highest for ST and MT in 4 -6min fights
    No, you just have no idea what you're talking about and keep believing that you find flaws where there are none, constantly contradicting yourself. Unless you can mathematically prove what you're saying, there's simply no value in it when talking about numbers.

    You are literally saying that they show up as the best. There's nothing to discuss further with no data on your part. Just stop trying to muddle the waters.

  7. #347
    This thread is honestly going weird places. Lot of unnecessary aggression about (what should be) very simple caveats.

    For those using Dreamgrove data as some sort of pinpoint accurate data bear in mind the messages pinned in the discord itself:

    These are PRELIMINARY results. There WILL be bugs, changes, and improvements.

    DO NOT use to make any decisions regarding what you would do in Shadowlands.

    As everything is WORK IN PROGRESS we may not be able to answer many questions - you should be able to find many answers within the FAQ or the individual detailed sim reports.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    No, you just have no idea what you're talking about and keep believing that you find flaws where there are none, constantly contradicting yourself. Unless you can mathematically prove what you're saying, there's simply no value in it when talking about numbers.

    You are literally saying that they show up as the best. There's nothing to discuss further with no data on your part. Just stop trying to muddle the waters.

    Why don’t you pin point by mathically why it isn’t?

    You seem to be telling everyone is wrong, so prove them wrong.. oh right

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    No, you just have no idea what you're talking about and keep believing that you find flaws where there are none, constantly contradicting yourself. Unless you can mathematically prove what you're saying, there's simply no value in it when talking about numbers.

    You are literally saying that they show up as the best. There's nothing to discuss further with no data on your part. Just stop trying to muddle the waters.
    There is no data about those situations on your part either, only things you have data on is the ST and MT sims that last 4-6 mins - which I already said Venthyr is the best for.

    Like, do I really need to run a sim that lasts for 10 sec to see which is better? Because that is really obvious from every angle, in such burst situation Night Fae wins pretty much regardless of number of targets (though there likely is a breakpoint where Venthyr casting just plain Starfire wins).
    You want me no numerically prove something that is logically obvious, yet you don't have any numbers either and claim to be correct because "but maaam, smart people think like me!" - not a very compelling way to introduce yourself.

    You were whining about New Moon being bad, only being used in one build that is 800 dps behind the top build. Yet when looking at the data aka sims new moon is 150 dps behind the best comp (where most difference is from our top Legendary being bad for it, as I explained earlier in this thread) and 60 dps behind when that "broken" legendary is taken out of the picture. Yes, FoE is still the best but the row is rather balanced already and if it went live this way then there really wouldn't be any issues with it as you could play any of them in ST - preferably they'd buff moons by a tiny bit to make it better in ST and FoE while FoE reigns in AoE (or just reduce Full moon AoE reduction to make it competitive in AoE).

    With current tuning most hardcore PvE players will pick Venthyr, no questions about it but claiming it is the best in every situation is just blatantly false.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    There is no data about those situations on your part either, only things you have data on is the ST and MT sims that last 4-6 mins - which I already said Venthyr is the best for.

    Like, do I really need to run a sim that lasts for 10 sec to see which is better? Because that is really obvious from every angle, in such burst situation Night Fae wins pretty much regardless of number of targets (though there likely is a breakpoint where Venthyr casting just plain Starfire wins).
    You want me no numerically prove something that is logically obvious, yet you don't have any numbers either and claim to be correct because "but maaam, smart people think like me!" - not a very compelling way to introduce yourself.

    You were whining about New Moon being bad, only being used in one build that is 800 dps behind the top build. Yet when looking at the data aka sims new moon is 150 dps behind the best comp (where most difference is from our top Legendary being bad for it, as I explained earlier in this thread) and 60 dps behind when that "broken" legendary is taken out of the picture. Yes, FoE is still the best but the row is rather balanced already and if it went live this way then there really wouldn't be any issues with it as you could play any of them in ST - preferably they'd buff moons by a tiny bit to make it better in ST and FoE while FoE reigns in AoE (or just reduce Full moon AoE reduction to make it competitive in AoE).

    With current tuning most hardcore PvE players will pick Venthyr, no questions about it but claiming it is the best in every situation is just blatantly false.
    You're just trolling now, ok. Keep going. You've made it apparent that you do not understand what is relevant and what is not in the game and in progression raiding nor key pushing. I won't bother with your non-existent arguments anymore.

    Venthyr is the best covenant currently for all situations as we are waiting for the new beta patch to hit today. Nobody cares if you believe it or not, since the math is right there. Stop trying to create impressions that have no bearing in any competitive form of the game and if you can't take the mathematical truth, stop quoting me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Destiny Man View Post
    This thread is honestly going weird places. Lot of unnecessary aggression about (what should be) very simple caveats.

    For those using Dreamgrove data as some sort of pinpoint accurate data bear in mind the messages pinned in the discord itself:
    That is simply referring to the fact that beta is always changing and you shouldn't base your choice on what X beta build months before release is showing as the best covenant. I'm only talking about what is currently best in beta, as showcased by sims ran by the top-end of the druid theorycrafters, nothing more.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    That is simply referring to the fact that beta is always changing and you shouldn't base your choice on what X beta build months before release is showing as the best covenant. I'm only talking about what is currently best in beta, as showcased by sims ran by the top-end of the druid theorycrafters, nothing more.
    The APL is constantly being updated based on changes, bugs and feedback (as the original message dictates). That's not at all saying it's untrustworthy, just that it's always subject to change.

    Nobody here disagrees Venthyr is a very strong choice at this moment in time, feedback from both sims and practical tests are very much showing this, but most accurate results will ALWAYS exist between raw sims and practical log data (not just on sim data alone).

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    You're just trolling now, ok. Keep going. You've made it apparent that you do not understand what is relevant and what is not in the game and in progression raiding nor key pushing. I won't bother with your non-existent arguments anymore.

    Venthyr is the best covenant currently for all situations as we are waiting for the new beta patch to hit today. Nobody cares if you believe it or not, since the math is right there. Stop trying to create impressions that have no bearing in any competitive form of the game and if you can't take the mathematical truth, stop quoting me.
    Yep, I definitely do not understand what is relevant and what isn't after years of World Firsts and theorycrafting. So why would you bother actually taking part in the conversation when you can just say "oh but you trolling and I'm right". Keep it up!

    No, Venthyr isn't the best in all situations as of now. You say math is right there, but you haven't shown us anything but ST and MT 4-6min sims - if you have any other "mathemathical truths" then please do show then, I'll gladly take a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    I'm only talking about what is currently best in beta, as showcased by sims ran by the top-end of the druid theorycrafters, nothing more.
    I should probably let you know I'm right there theorycrafting those sims - even if I'm not as active anymore since I'm currently only casually raiding.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    No, Venthyr isn't the best in all situations as of now.
    Out of curiousity - what would be the not-the-best situations (except pvp)?

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Destiny Man View Post
    The APL is constantly being updated based on changes, bugs and feedback (as the original message dictates). That's not at all saying it's untrustworthy, just that it's always subject to change.

    Nobody here disagrees Venthyr is a very strong choice at this moment in time, feedback from both sims and practical tests are very much showing this, but most accurate results will ALWAYS exist between raw sims and practical log data (not just on sim data alone).
    Exactly. Subject to change does not mean wrong. Venthyr is currently the best choice in all situations based on the simulations that have already been ran. There's nothing else to be said and this cannot be disputed. It is as simple as that. If and when practical log data after release come about and disagree, an argument on how practical X ability is to use in Y raid encounter or Z dungeon is welcome, but until then, there's no debating nor is there any reason to resort to nonsense to try to dispute something that is mathematically proven.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    Out of curiousity - what would be the not-the-best situations (except pvp)?
    Short term burst and movement are two clear winners, anything that requires cd's every 2 minutes etc. There are plenty of situations where you'd want Night Fae over Venthyr, but since patchwerk overall dps isn't one of them it likely won't be the "best option" for PvE.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    Exactly. Subject to change does not mean wrong.
    Good thing I never claimed it was "wrong" then.

    Venthyr is currently the best choice in all situations based on the simulations that have already been ran. There's nothing else to be said and this cannot be disputed. It is as simple as that. If and when practical log data after release come about and disagree, an argument on how practical X ability is to use in Y raid encounter or Z dungeon is welcome, but until then, there's no debating nor is there any reason to resort to nonsense to try to dispute something that is mathematically proven.
    Honestly, what's bothering me is the attitude coming across that there are no caveats with sims which is blatantly false.

    That in no way suggests the data is useless or that its not a big factor into current rankings of covenants but you can't base your decision solely off raw sim data.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    I thought we were talking strictly PvE, therefore talks about simming, fight movement and general knowledge about the encounter.

    If we're talking about PvP then... yes I guess? Wasn't it the main "feature" of covenants that different covenants will be better for different situations? Weren't people complaining that you'll have to be constantly switching to remain competetive in both PvE and PvP?

    Yes, on first glance both Venthyr spells are pretty bad for PvP (instant blink and channeled burst coming from Night Fae are better in this case), but I was under an impression that we're talking about PvE. After all, if you're thinking seriously about being competetive in PvP, you won't be playing balance druid.
    Being differently "good" is hardly a working feature because not all things to be good at are created equal. For example, burst AoE and 2-3 cleave have been significantly more valuable in most content outside high Tyrannical keys. Or the burst aoe vs. sustained aoe argument in comparison between an unholy DK or DH vs. Enhancement shaman/Affliction warlock/Shadowpriest mindsear (which is why they made void eruption).

    Especially when these features come with such heavy investment and cannot be changed like talents to fit the needs of the encounter.

    Soulbinds were supposed to fill this gap, but the blatant flaws surfaced easily when you realize that soulbinds are not only shared by all classes but specs as well, so it's impossible to balance a single target kyrian skill to have aoe soulbinds when another class or spec actually has AoE and needs ST instead.

    Shadowlands and BfA have essentially been rollsbacks from Legion when they realized they cannot and do not want to undertake the workload of designing different progression systems for each spec, with multiple spec specific aesthetic rewards, class stories and mounts (as well as multiple tints of the mounts and artifact skins).

    You are paying the same price for a lot less work put into an expansion in features with the advent of BfA and SL, which is a shame because regardless of some misses for some specs (like warlock, all of which sucked mechanically unless they were grossly overtuned in numbers like affliction to mask the bad design, ditto for DH), the Legion expansion did some seriously impressive class and spec work and accompanied the most robust aesthetic reward system any expansion has ever had.

    Then we got BfA and SL with uniform tier gear, and spec agnostic essences besides VoP (aka the less liked Legion feature, netherlight crucible).

  18. #358
    Well, getting this back to what this thread is supposed to be about, looks like Lunar Eclipse is getting changed to give Crit to Starfire instead of boosting cleave, which is now on SotF(though it no longer provides Crit. Basically, they swapped the effects). Based on previous behaviour, the crit bonus should increase ~6-7% with each Starsurge.

    Obviously, this is much more useful when we have to do ST in Lunar.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Destiny Man View Post
    Good thing I never claimed it was "wrong" then.



    Honestly, what's bothering me is the attitude coming across that there are no caveats with sims which is blatantly false.

    That in no way suggests the data is useless or that its not a big factor into current rankings of covenants but you can't base your decision solely off raw sim data.
    You may base your decision on whatever you want, be it numbers, aesthetics or any other personal reason you fancy. That does not take away from math dictating what is best and honestly, I don't care about how you may find one's attitude or the simple truth numbers speak. That is quite simply only your problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Well, getting this back to what this thread is supposed to be about, looks like Lunar Eclipse is getting changed to give Crit to Starfire instead of boosting cleave, which is now on SotF(though it no longer provides Crit. Basically, they swapped the effects). Based on previous behaviour, the crit bonus should increase ~6-7% with each Starsurge.

    Obviously, this is much more useful when we have to do ST in Lunar.
    Indeed, a good change along with the ~10% repeated buff to dot damage. Seems like they're kinda done though and this worries me.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    Indeed, a good change along with the ~10% repeated buff to dot damage. Seems like they're kinda done though and this worries me.
    Not much time left for that. I don't expect to many mechanical changes beyond this point, mostly just tuning, unless a spec is just unworkable(e.g. can't complete a +15/Mythic raid, not just bad at it). And for tuning to make any sense, mechanical changes have to be done, or you'd just be doing it over and over again.

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