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  1. #21
    Elemental Lord Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Not forcing the cycle is pretty much the point. You don't have to go through Solar to trigger another Lunar. Under normal circumstances, you just won't have anything better to do.
    But the optimal play is to always trigger only the right Eclipse and lenghten it untill you can proc it again. Being stuck in the wrong Eclipse long after the ICD is gone sounds bad.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    But the optimal play is to always trigger only the right Eclipse and lenghten it untill you can proc it again. Being stuck in the wrong Eclipse long after the ICD is gone sounds bad.
    AuraCancel says hi. If they get the tuning right, you generally won't have to, though. What you suggest isn't optimal play, though, it's impossible play. Optimal still requires for the strategy to actually be possible.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    But the optimal play is to always trigger only the right Eclipse and lenghten it untill you can proc it again. Being stuck in the wrong Eclipse long after the ICD is gone sounds bad.
    I think this is where the BfA model is better, as there's an optimal way to do things and it's not necessarily counter-intuitive. You have ways to switch your priority, whether it's ST/Cleave/AoE, and fairly quickly, too. This also comes with the added benefit that SW and LS both cleave when empowered, so no matter the scenario you don't feel like it's the wrong spell to cast when empowered.

    With what we have from the alpha, there's a long delay in being able to adapt to situations in an optimal fashion. If we have a cleave/AoE scenario the spell we want to use is Starfire... but that won't proc Lunar Eclipse, so you have to use Wrath instead. When Lunar Eclipse ends, you'll still want to Lunar Strike and end up proccing Solar Eclipse. What's the intuitive response to this? Is spamming your ST spell in a cleave/aoe scenario that's empowered the right choice, or is ignoring your empowered spells to continue Starfire spamming the right one? The same sort of quandary occurs during a ST scenario and proccing Lunar Strike. Obviously haven't done the math, but I'd assume you'd just want to use the empowered spells... but that's just it: the answer is "math it out" verses what's intuitive based upon what spells do.

    While BfA has some level of that issue of intuitive behavior, it's more about the target thresholds for Starsurge/Starfall. The model in BfA is still use empowered spells before casting non-empowered spells (since they all cleave when empowered), and casting non-empowered spells is pretty straightforward based upon what they do. What I do worry about with respect to the alpha changes is that the builders won't matter in terms of their function even less than they potentially do in BfA, and it'll be all about Starsurge/Starfall. If anything, I think it's an issue that this design seems to lead further towards a point where we ignore what spells do in any given scenario if the "right" answer is always spam one ability during eclipses.

    Anyways, let's get to the feedback response blue post. I'm really surprised Blizz didn't think the ICD on eclipses would draw attention, as I feel this implies that the function of eclipses is meant to be ignored from their point of view (which is why I think they're designing that you just always spam the empowered spell regardless of scenario). How is this different from BfA? The empowered spells don't change their function when empowered on the alpha. Perhaps this is a fine line, but if the empowerments on the alpha alter your ability to perform a task outside of the eclipse, that's a huge issue. Again, I feel the answer Blizz will arrive at is the function of the builders will matter even less than BfA and it'll be all about the spenders.

    BTW, I know I'm referring to the alpha moonkin spec as a builder-spender spec, because it literally still is. The only real change is that empowerments are being replaced with eclipse durations, you still gotta build up AP to use Starsurge/Starfall in this new system. However, as some have alluded, I feel like they're trying to make an old system that had issues work again in a new setting. In terms of execution, the BfA system was solid, functional, and mostly intuitive. This new system does feel very forced, as it screams flavor for the sake of flavor. Sure, I think the empowerments in BfA were probably a weaker point for the spec (especially ST scenarios, where you pretty much always cast empowered spells), but they still functioned fairly well.

    If I had a desire if we do keep the eclipse system: make it bloody intuitive and interesting! Hidden ICDs are never the answer to something that's supposed to be the main aspect of your rotation. Give us a debuff to say "hey, you can't proc this eclipse right now" at least, or make spell interactions that allow us to use both schools of spells during an eclipse to amplify our desired scenario versus just buffing one builder spell (similar to the mentality of the Azerite trait where casting Lunar Strike buffed your Wrath damage for 8 seconds), something other than spam one ability for 16 seconds. My fingers already hurt from using Incarnation on my bear and spamming one ability ad nauseum for nearly 30 seconds, don't need that for my moonkin!
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  4. #24
    They could make Solar and Lunar Eclipses more fun, instead of them just buffing one or the other and needing to be in one eclipse for optimal AoE or ST DMG.

    How about when you proc Lunar eclipse you can cast New MOON causing x amount of AoE DMG. And when you proc solar eclipse you proc Solar Flare cause x amount of Dmg and small amount of splash Dmg.

    And to proc either eclipse it's maybe using 4 cast of either spell will proc lunar or solar depending on what spell you just casted as your 4th spell. That way doesn't feel bad when you need to AoE right away, so you don't need to cast wrath 3 or 4 times to proc lunar so you can start AoEing with Starfire and vice versa.

    I dunno, just something to make the eclipse system fun, because right now it's spamming one spell to proc an Eclipse, so you can spam the other spell and vice versa. This to me just makes the current eclipse play style pretty damn boring, even more so then what we have now with empowerments, but at least with empowerments I can AoE right away with lunar strike (besides Starfall being complete crap) and hold on to empowerments for a good amount of time depending on the fight situation.

    Anyways what ya'll think.
    Last edited by Azzurri; 2020-04-14 at 01:03 PM.

  5. #25
    Exochaft seems to hit the nail on the head for me.
    I don't mind a return to Eclipse as long as it works and all of the iterations of Eclipse had their faults. So can Blizzard find a way to correct those? Again, if this is like the WotLK Eclipse, which many seem to say it is, I think this is the best starting point, but it still needs to be made better. The main thing that I am picking up so far about Alpha is that it seems very slow in response time and that we will have periods of sub-optimal play no matter what.

    I actually like the way Moonkin plays right now, I think the empowerments work well and the proc off of each other is intuitive and creates a priority that isn't always stale. If Eclipse can build on this going forward, then I am all for it.

  6. #26
    I said it before; the changes feel a lot like they just went "Oh, we still have to change Balance because we do every expansion" without any real regard as to whether we actually need changes or whether they'd truly be an improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Argenon View Post
    The main thing that I am picking up so far about Alpha is that it seems very slow in response time and that we will have periods of sub-optimal play no matter what.
    That's not sub-optimal play because there's nothing you can do about it. Sub-optimal design, possibly, but optimal play means using the abilities you have in the best way possible, not the abilities you wish you had.

    Sub-optimal play inherently means you made a mistake somewhere.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GothamCity View Post
    You implied exactly what they stated though.

    Asking "Who exactly is this change for" is an indirect way of suggesting that no one wanted the change. It's like "am I the only one" or "who would want this". It implies something beyond the literal meaning of the words. No one writes that honestly asking who asked for the change, it is a means to criticize the change by suggesting that no one, or very few people, wanted it.
    Which is then qualified by the less absolute "i haven't seen", indicating that the writer never came across somebody, but isn't certain they don't exist.
    Reading comprehension.

    Also "2 steps back" is another phrase. It does not literally mean regression. It can, but it often just means that something got worse.
    So you admit that it can in fact mean the thing it was intended as and you just refuse to read it that way, even though context makes it clear that was what is intended.

    You wrote two common phrases often used to mean "No one wanted this change and it's inferior to the current version". You can't be surprised people interpreted your words like that. Now you're falling back on literal definitions while ignoring the phrase's connotation and popular usage. Then you insulted the poster's ability to read to suggest that the failing is on them. If you did not mean what that poster understood, then the communication failure falls on you.
    Unless people were actually reading the comment in context, which removes a lot of the ambiguity your argument rests on.

  7. #27
    High Overlord MCitra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    I love that they're going as far back as WotLK for some specs.

    I mained Balance in WotLK, and it was extremely fun to play - I absolutely loved it. They even went as far as to rename Lunar Strike to Starfire, fantastic!

    Now I'd just like to see Starfall buffed to fuck so Starfire can go back to It's ST truck hitting ability like it did in Wrath. 40% increased crit chance during Lunar Eclipse.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Right? lmao. Turning the spec into yet ANOTHER resource chaser was idiotic and made no sense, like yay ANOTHER resource. At least Shamans get theirs deleted, so happy for them (still praying for the removal of Priest's Void Form and Insanity). Anyway, I hate how Balance Druid plays now. Get to 40 Astral Power, Starsurge, Lunar Strike and Wrath. It's dumb and boring. Not to mention you need THREE Shooting Stars Azerite to be competitive.

    Same. I have played all expansions as a Boomkin and I really miss wotlk. But i would love to see a mix as off today with wotlk + full moon with a nice new starfall spell.

    I kinda miss legion boomie too when you had to swap for single and for aoe.. It made the character more fun and less tunnelvision boring
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  8. #28
    People here saying current balance is great. Meanwhile, I can't think of any fight in which we are top tier dps. All of the fights are dominated by melee / mages / warlocks / bm hunters, the only time I'm even able to score top 5 dps during our mythic runs is with EXTREMELY lucky infinite stars (and even then, other classes can also have this corruption), often times struggling to be in top 10. And with other classes having combas ress, and this far into expension healers not really needing innervate, I'm asking myself what's even a point of bringing balance when you can bring additional mage who will deal 50% more damage than you?

    Yeah we're good nukers. Keep in mind this nuke requires our only cd, AP pooling and then... how many fights actually require hard nuke? I can think of only Ra'den orbs.
    Fights like Hivemind are just depressing.

    As for "fun" of the spec - if it's either "proc your only cd and have fun" or "no fun", it's a bad design. You'd think having two spells in the rotation (solar wrath and lunar strike) would make a spec more compelling, but it's just tedious trying to not overcap empowerments for such little gain.

    And don't even get me started on M+.

    I'm not saying SL version will definitely be better (idk), but our current situation (at least from my experience) is in need of some changes.

  9. #29
    Elemental Lord Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    People here saying current balance is great. Meanwhile, I can't think of any fight in which we are top tier dps. All of the fights are dominated by melee / mages / warlocks / bm hunters, the only time I'm even able to score top 5 dps during our mythic runs is with EXTREMELY lucky infinite stars (and even then, other classes can also have this corruption), often times struggling to be in top 10. And with other classes having combas ress, and this far into expension healers not really needing innervate, I'm asking myself what's even a point of bringing balance when you can bring additional mage who will deal 50% more damage than you?

    Yeah we're good nukers. Keep in mind this nuke requires our only cd, AP pooling and then... how many fights actually require hard nuke? I can think of only Ra'den orbs.
    Fights like Hivemind are just depressing.

    As for "fun" of the spec - if it's either "proc your only cd and have fun" or "no fun", it's a bad design. You'd think having two spells in the rotation (solar wrath and lunar strike) would make a spec more compelling, but it's just tedious trying to not overcap empowerments for such little gain.

    And don't even get me started on M+.

    I'm not saying SL version will definitely be better (idk), but our current situation (at least from my experience) is in need of some changes.
    Nobody is talking about logs.

    We are talking about gameplay.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    People here saying current balance is great. Meanwhile, I can't think of any fight in which we are top tier dps. All of the fights are dominated by melee / mages / warlocks / bm hunters, the only time I'm even able to score top 5 dps during our mythic runs is with EXTREMELY lucky infinite stars (and even then, other classes can also have this corruption), often times struggling to be in top 10. And with other classes having combas ress, and this far into expension healers not really needing innervate, I'm asking myself what's even a point of bringing balance when you can bring additional mage who will deal 50% more damage than you?

    Yeah we're good nukers. Keep in mind this nuke requires our only cd, AP pooling and then... how many fights actually require hard nuke? I can think of only Ra'den orbs.
    Fights like Hivemind are just depressing.

    As for "fun" of the spec - if it's either "proc your only cd and have fun" or "no fun", it's a bad design. You'd think having two spells in the rotation (solar wrath and lunar strike) would make a spec more compelling, but it's just tedious trying to not overcap empowerments for such little gain.

    And don't even get me started on M+.

    I'm not saying SL version will definitely be better (idk), but our current situation (at least from my experience) is in need of some changes.
    I don't think what we have now is that great either, but with some improvements it could at least fix the problems we currently have.

    But of course Blizzard threw the baby out with the bath water instead of just fixing what was broke. In all honesty they didn't have to completely reinvent the wheel again, just improve on what we have now.

    Nobody is talking about logs.

    We are talking about gameplay.
    Yup, they didn't need to introduce the eclipse system (again) all they had to do was adjust and improve what we have now. And there are a lot of ways doing it, w/o throwing everything away for a new system that honestly looks worst than what we have now.
    Last edited by Azzurri; 2020-04-14 at 05:40 PM.

  11. #31
    I like the Shadowlands version, however I do want the eclipses to be a bit more exciting. Change something in the spells, upgrade them to do more than more dmg and faster casting time isn't that exciting imo.
    Last edited by Euroguy; 2020-04-14 at 06:31 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyze View Post
    I like the Shadowlands version, however I do want the eclipses to be a bit more exciting. Change something in the spells, upgrade them to do more than more dmg and faster casting time isn't that exciting imo.
    That's what they should do. Right now they're boring haste and dmg increases, there is no big payoff or anything cool when you proc them. Plus, fishing for the opposite proc is not fun.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    That's not sub-optimal play because there's nothing you can do about it. Sub-optimal design, possibly, but optimal play means using the abilities you have in the best way possible, not the abilities you wish you had.

    Sub-optimal play inherently means you made a mistake somewhere.
    This is what I meant;not sub-optimal play because it is all we have, but feels bad, so sub-optimal design.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Nobody is talking about logs.

    We are talking about gameplay.
    Exactly. Would I want to be able to be more competitive in logs, of course. But as for the way the priority/rotation feels right now, I think it works.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Argenon View Post
    But as for the way the priority/rotation feels right now, I think it works.
    A question then - would you feel the same without Arcanic Pulsar / VoP? Because I fail to see what's so fun in empowerments.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    A question then - would you feel the same without Arcanic Pulsar / VoP? Because I fail to see what's so fun in empowerments.
    Less CI uptime doesn't change that empowerments force us to constantly cast something different. It establishes a rhythm. That's the appeal to me at least.
    The question should be whether that's more or less fun than what we get in exchange.
    In SL we'll be casting wrath for 15 seconds until it's time to cast starfire for 15 seconds, give or take a starsurge extension.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    Less CI uptime doesn't change that empowerments force us to constantly cast something different. It establishes a rhythm. That's the appeal to me at least.
    The question should be whether that's more or less fun than what we get in exchange.
    In SL we'll be casting wrath for 15 seconds until it's time to cast starfire for 15 seconds, give or take a starsurge extension.

    Pretty much, with the eclipse system in alpha you can literally be spamming Wrath or Starfire like 7 times in a row when extending the Eclipses with SS.

    So that's fun game play?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurri View Post
    Pretty much, with the eclipse system in alpha you can literally be spamming Wrath or Starfire like 7 times in a row when extending the Eclipses with SS.

    So that's fun game play?
    Yes. Obviously going from SW LS SW LS SW LS to SW SW SW LS LS LS is a ginormous improvement. If you then decide to join the glorious Kyrians you're even getting a sick passive stat boosting talent to go along with it for the ultimate new gaming experience. Seriously, the step from BFA to SL might be as big as the step from WoD SV to Legion SV, maybe even bigger.

  18. #38
    I was playing moonkin main in Wotlk.
    The eclipse was satisfied when it starts. But if you were unlucky it was very frustrating.
    So mostly the forums were filled with "stop that luck mechanic for dps" stuff.
    They increased the chance to get into eclipse by every hit you make without getting into it.
    This results into the fix eclipse bar you have to fill. Luck was suspended from it.
    Now you are going back in time and ignore every evolution of that specc, just to add back the "luck" into the rotation?
    Can't believe you'll do this.

  19. #39
    Field Marshal Miena's Avatar
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    So far it definitely sounds more interesting than what we have now. As ppl pointed out, its pretty much WotLK boomie, which i personally liked. However, what i still miss, is big ass starfire crits :'(

    Now with Starsurge that’s never gonna happen again, which kinda sucks. I’d rather instead have only starfall (on a cd for example) be strong on aoe and viable on single target, and make our wraths and starfires be able to hit like trucks when they’re in the proper eclipse state, with insect swarm replacing sunfire.

    Starsurge just feels way too much like a destro lock ability to me, as you build up resources to spend it on the big boom.

    Why not add the unique Boomkin Full Moon instead of Starsurge as baseline? I think that’d be much more interesting, since you needed to build up the spell by itself without any resource bar to unleash our very own special, thematic nuclear boomkin Moon bomb.

    It would feel super fun and exciting, and more class thematic when you got to that point of being in lunar eclipse, popping starfall, casting big crit Starfires and unleashing a 3 stack Full Moon on your doomed enemy.

    Yet instead we have this boring feeling, build and spend (feeling the same like every other classes combat) AP for instant gratification lidl faerie chaos bolts. If you wanna give us power while moving, let the dmg be in the dots and upfront moonfire dmg, with occasional casting while moving with starfall.
    That way casting spells will feel way more satisfying, as boomkins are at their core a caster, so why not make that feel badass instead of shooting of instant starsurges built up slowly by pretty, but underwhelming noodle starfires and wraths?

    Starfire and Wrath are two very iconic Moonkin spells since it’s inception. Make them mean something again! Let em be able to pop off like they should and make our enemies shiver when they see that we got one off, or even moreso when it’s a Full Moon!
    It would feel so great to embody that which is the BOOMkin by blowing people up with hard hitting spellcasts and mean dots, and give people some respect again for our casted abilities!

    I for sure would be flapping ever happily after if that were to be a thing again.

  20. #40
    As it sits now the Eclipse system is boring, but it can be improved like others have said. We just need more interaction with procing Eclipses and other big hitting spells like New Moon, so the payoff feels good. Right now they're basically a different style of empowerments.

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