[Balance] Shadowlands Class Updates

[lappee]

Maybe it will be better once I try it myself. My opinion is based on watching streams and Youtube videos. And I have some bad memories from earlier eclipse systems.

There has only been one really, really bad eclipse system and that was WoD one

Yeah I know pooling will be important. Save 60-90 ap before an eclipse may feel great, extending it right away (unless you cast a starfall). My worries is that one eclipse may be much better than the other. There should obviously be a difference, otherwise it's no point. But if it turns out that lunar eclipse is far superior than solar it could be problematic, especially in m+. Because then it will feel bad entering solar eclipse on trash. Lets hope starfall damage makes up for it. Especially when starfall doesn't extend the eclipse.

There should be a difference, and hopefully it is greater than it currently is on alpha (where Solar is better for everything, thanks to Moonfire being useless). Starfall alone being so strong currently makes AoE great without caring about eclipse, the bigger difference comes from Sunfire being on all mobs while Moonfire isn't worth dotting on more than couple targets (specially since we don't run Twin Moons for AoE).

And you could still have more freedom without sacrificing all the decision making. This system have some decision making, that's true. But its also limiting your choices to a certain degree. I hope I will enjoy it as much as you do. Decision making is a nice thing if they tune it properly. But freedom is also nice. I like a balance between control and freedom.

Thats very rarely the case, depending how you define freedom. Like currently on alpha you have the freedom to never use Solar eclipse, but that is just bad dps. You have the freedom to just cast wrath and never anything else, but that is just bad dps. So most people don't consider this "freedom", because it negatively affects their dps.
When we introduce decision making into the picture, you either have decision making that matters (affects your dps, aka limiting your "freedom") or you have decision making that doesn't matter (doesn't affect your dps, but you have "freedom").

What can (and should, but I doubt it will) happen is to have talents that alter gameplay to some degree, while having little to none dps difference (if it is AoE vs AoE, ST vs ST etc. situations).

Tbh, I'm getting exhausted reading this. Worst case you're going 10 seconds without empowered casts. You must know how bad it feels to cast even one unempowered cast with current moonkin. Just imagine how bad a handful of them will feel. How can this be fun?

"Worst" case being you choosing to do so, in order to maximize your dps for something certain phase. and 10 seconds is very rare with how things look in Alpha, I doubt people remember how it used to be in Cataclysm etc.

And currently I literally don't care about empowered or non-empowered fillers because they don't matter for shit. You literally could take empowerments completely away and I wouldn't notice at all.

- - - Updated - - -

But in practice they're counting for extending Eclipses for long and instantly triggering the other one so the base spell will hit like a wet noodle.

Theres always going to be 3 casts (unless it gets changed) for proccing Eclipse. How eclipse scales with mastery will determine how much base spells hit for.

[Lahis]

Theres always going to be 3 casts (unless it gets changed) for proccing Eclipse. How eclipse scales with mastery will determine how much base spells hit for.

In grand scheme of things, three casts between Eclipses isn't much. For all intents and purposes, balancing will be made with the assumption that we are in eclipse most of the time. Which means, Eclipse boosted spells do the normal damage compared to other classes fillers, and unboosted just slap minor damage until the Eclipse procs.

[GringoD]

"Worst" case being you choosing to do so, in order to maximize your dps for something certain phase. and 10 seconds is very rare with how things look in Alpha, I doubt people remember how it used to be in Cataclysm etc.

It's a mute choice when it means playing optimal. There's always the best way to play, and if that means delaying wrath eclipse, than you'll do that.
You're not burning your CD's on an inconsequential phase, do you? So why burn your wrath eclipse.
The difference being that holding a CD doesn't feel nearly as bad.

And currently I literally don't care about empowered or non-empowered fillers because they don't matter for shit. You literally could take empowerments completely away and I wouldn't notice at all.

I guarantee you would, because unempowered casts take longer... How can you not notice that? That's weird.

[TickTickTick]

The more I think about this, the more I wonder... why do we even need Eclipse/Empowerments? Why can't we just be a build&spend spec like the other ones that were always much more desired? We'd have Wrath for single target, Lunar Strike for multitarget, and then add a fun proc or two like other specs have.

I don't know. Other ranged dps specs (besides shadow priest perhaps) seem pretty basic and people somehow are able to have fun with it without forced gimmicks. Meanwhile they keep forcing balace spec to some unique areas, but the problem is we can never hope to be head to head with warlocks and mages and our utility advantage is diminishing with each expansion. They work on mechanics of the spec itself while failing to help a question: "Why bring balance druid if you can bring another mage/warlock?"

[huth]

It's a mute choice when it means playing optimal. There's always the best way to play, and if that means delaying wrath eclipse, than you'll do that.
You're not burning your CD's on an inconsequential phase, do you? So why burn your wrath eclipse.
The difference being that holding a CD doesn't feel nearly as bad.

You wouldn't need to hold Eclipses for anywhere near as long as CDs, though. Unless you're deliberately prolonging them, they only last 10 seconds. Stagger your SS properly and you probably won't need to hold them much, if at all.

"Why bring balance druid if you can bring another mage/warlock?"

Last i looked you got the moonkin and the WL mixed up. WL bring barely anything relevant we don't.

[Lahis]

Last i looked you got the moonkin and the WL mixed up. WL bring barely anything relevant we don't.

Gateway, Gateway, Gateway.

[lappee]

In grand scheme of things, three casts between Eclipses isn't much. For all intents and purposes, balancing will be made with the assumption that we are in eclipse most of the time. Which means, Eclipse boosted spells do the normal damage compared to other classes fillers, and unboosted just slap minor damage until the Eclipse procs.

Depends highly on haste, at the start of the expansion you'll be casting quite many fillers without eclipse (~25-40%, depending on AoE or ST). It'll lower s bit once you get haste, but it will never, ever be as low as it currently is (literally <5%).
Balacing will be made with that in mind, they can either go full out Eclipse good no eclipse bad route and have mastery be our superstat, or we can end up with mastery being the least favorable and eclipse bonus not mattering that much.

However we'll probably end up "not caring" about filler damage since actual damage comes from Starsurge alone.

It's a mute choice when it means playing optimal. There's always the best way to play, and if that means delaying wrath eclipse, than you'll do that.
You're not burning your CD's on an inconsequential phase, do you? So why burn your wrath eclipse.
The difference being that holding a CD doesn't feel nearly as bad.

But its a choice you have to do, whether or not you think it is mute or not. Sure there is always an optimal way of playing, but you can't always what is the optimal way since RNG can (and will) influence that optimality. You can only make a decision regarding your position. Should you delay eclipse for 1 second, or for 10. Both have their benefits that depend on the encounter. I can tell you there is very, very few people (if any) that can actually play very close to actual "optimal" - and in Shadowlands you'll see the difference in dps (if current state stays the same), on live you don't.

I guarantee you would, because unempowered casts take longer... How can you not notice that? That's weird.

I don't, there is so many short duration haste procs that any difference in spell cast times that non-empowered cast could be any of them. Literally wouldn't notice.

[GringoD]

But its a choice you have to do, whether or not you think it is mute or not. Sure there is always an optimal way of playing, but you can't always what is the optimal way since RNG can (and will) influence that optimality. You can only make a decision regarding your position. Should you delay eclipse for 1 second, or for 10. Both have their benefits that depend on the encounter. I can tell you there is very, very few people (if any) that can actually play very close to actual "optimal" - and in Shadowlands you'll see the difference in dps (if current state stays the same), on live you don't.

You make this out to be some grand choice, but it's a foregone conclusion... The only thing that matters is whether you know about the technique or not.
It's already on live, too. I'm pooling astral power for more starfalls on Hivemind add spawn for example. If there was a choice, it was probably when I read the guide.

In Shadowlands you'll roughly have the same eclipse timings every fight, so the wrath eclipse delay will happen at roughly the same point in the rotation. Sure, sometimes you'll end up a few seconds off because you got hit by a mechanic, but the timing you need to be in wrath eclipse for is already mapped out and all you need to do is adjust accordingly.

I just don't get what's exciting about that. On the contrary, I find it annoying. It interrupts my rotation and makes me cast long, unempowered spells.
The only pre-meditated decision I ever found exciting was Council of Shivarra, where you could play a completely different rotation.

[lappee]

You make this out to be some grand choice, but it's a foregone conclusion... The only thing that matters is whether you know about the technique or not.
It's already on live, too. I'm pooling astral power for more starfalls on Hivemind add spawn for example. If there was a choice, it was probably when I read the guide.

In Shadowlands you'll roughly have the same eclipse timings every fight, so the wrath eclipse delay will happen at roughly the same point in the rotation. Sure, sometimes you'll end up a few seconds off because you got hit by a mechanic, but the timing you need to be in wrath eclipse for is already mapped out and all you need to do is adjust accordingly.

I just don't get what's exciting about that. On the contrary, I find it annoying. It interrupts my rotation and makes me cast long, unempowered spells.
The only pre-meditated decision I ever found exciting was Council of Shivarra, where you could play a completely different rotation.

It is just one example of a choice that matters, and sure you can math it out after many, many pulls (after everyone got their shit together and rng doesn't screw you over) but until that you gotta actually make the decisions during gameplay and not beforehand.
Sure there is pooling currently on live, but the difference between pooling and not pooling is miniscule at best (and btw Starfalling those adds is a bad choice - unless you want to max pad while no1 else dpses them)

And thats where our views differ, you want to be able to do everything all the time while I actually want my choices and button presses to actually matter (even if I ocasionally have to cast my Wraths and Starfires for ~9% longer, whippedoo)

[huth]

On an unrelated note, what targeting is Starfall currently using? Everything everywhere, in-combat only, dotted only, other?

(and btw Starfalling those adds is a bad choice - unless you want to max pad while no1 else dpses them)

That one had me confused... about the only place i remember in Ny'alotha where Starfall has any use is Ma'ut trash and Carapace p3, and even that is more if one doesn't have anything better to do.

[TickTickTick]

Last i looked you got the moonkin and the WL mixed up. WL bring barely anything relevant we don't.

Besides the gateway mentioned above: healthstone, interrupt on a lower cd, MUCH better aoe, better single target, MUCH better cleave / prio nuke thanks to havoc, CR can be set up before combat, MUCH better survivability, lower cd on big abilities which makes it better for fight planning. This on top of CR / fear which we already bring (root instead of fear).

What we bring: CR (which lost its value when warlocks and death knights got one too), innervate (which I barely use at this momoment because healers don't need it), aoe silence (which in mythic raiding I've found use for in two situations: mass pulling trash between Maut and Skitra and preventing heals, and Psychophages in mythic N'zoth), Typhoon (if specced, and again, the only situation I've found it advantageous is Psychophages on mythic N'zoth), nuke potential with astral power stacking, although in cost of main target damage, piss poor aoe, pretty weak cleave.

This is coming from a mythic raiding bala druid who also has a warlock in the squad. And let's be honest, if you already have someone who can CR and you have to decide whether to bring balance druid or wrl / mage (of similar gear, good corruptions and similar skill level), you'll bring wrl / mage.

Faceroll dps specs like bm hunter or havoc dh (or specs that are a bit more difficult, although pretty boring) have shown us that people will still play them if they perform exceptionally well. That's why I'm asking if exploring these different areas for "unique playstyle" is worth always being behind the pack.

[Thelxi]

I am worried that they are going to fuck balance up. It's been in a solid stable state for two expansions now, so we are due a change for the sake of it.

Just be careful what you get excited for people. Just look at shadow priests.

[Argenon]

So those that are actually getting to try these newer changes in Alpha, how do they feel? Any updates?

[gobio]

For me, choice and freedom is :

You are casual in a causal guild doing mythic argus. P1 continues to be very inconsistent in hundreds of wipes.
You can do pure starsurge reincarnation build (doing optimal but difficult DPS), or
You can do hybrid starfall / starsurge build (doing 80-90% but highly stable DPS, plus free movement, even escorting people to take a shit)

both builds are representative in logs, so I am not alone.

That is freedom and choice. Pooling Astral power, or rotation options, like... meh.

[Dessicuus]

Balance Druid is a prime example of blizzard changing things that aren't broken.

I don't speak for everyone, but personally, I would have been 200% happy with "We buffed the damage of starfall to usefulness above 8 targets", "New Moon is now baseline" and "When casting any charge of new moon, it also grants you streaking stars".

It's incredibly fluid right now, and switching it back to eclipses is going to make it play like garbage out in the world, and in dungeons as you are forced to hit like a wet noodle until your Weakaura says you can activate your next eclipse.

[ravenmoon]

Balance
Solar and Lunar Empowerments are being strengthened and updated into Eclipses. Reminiscent of past expansions like Wrath of the Lich King, Wrath and Starfire will grant each other alternating Lunar and Solar Eclipses for a longer duration, with special moments of Celestial Alignment allowing both to occur at once. Balance Druids who master the flow of these Eclipses will be able to ensure a period of sustained power to either Wrath or Starfire at key moments of a fight. Starsurge will extend the current Eclipse to continue focusing power into either Wrath or Starfire, while Starfall instead extends your current Moonfire and Sunfire effects, giving the main Arcane Power spenders distinct roles based on situation.

Starfall will also return to its previous design, used from Wrath of the Lich King through Warlords of Draenor. Instead of needing to telegraph the affected area, Balance Druids again call down waves of stars, which strike the surrounding ground while they stand, run, or flap for its duration.

When I first saw the part about Eclipse returning, it read like an April Fools joke. Who knows exactly what this will look like, but it could be interpreted to be Eclipse Metronome Version 2.0. I like some of the iterations of eclipse, but I don't like the way this reads. I am okay with the starfall reversion.

How do all the moonkins out there feel about the return of eclipse? And what version does this wording remind you of?

If it ain't broke, dont fix it. As a top 25 raising Moonkin druid in Wrath, and world no 2 with thenspec at the time, eclipse had serious issues, and while I was very skeptical about the build and spend model, I feel Legion and BFA have been the best for the spec, and not just competitively speaking.

I like function determining when to cast wrath or starfire rather than an eclipse bar. It's not to say eclipse wont work with these improvements, but hey

[Lucrece]

The reason they keep reworking balance's resource mechanics is because they're lazy pieces of shit and don't want to make new spells and accompanying art assets.

Compare balance druid's spell kit to any other caster. It's way more limited in number. And then they went and removed a visually original and distinctive insect swarm and mushrooms to give us a sun clone of moonfire...and that's it.

New Moon should have never been pruned. Legion moonkin was just fine, just needing for empowerments to be made less saturated. They turned us into cosmic wizards far removed from what Malfurion or the night elf inspired druidism ever was.

They just don't want to do the comprehensive class and spec work they did with Legion or MoP, so they half assed it by reverting to WotLK nostalgia. All the classes are still suffering Legion syndrome except for Unholy DK, and that's because Unholy was the only spec that wasn't pruned to hell.

Shadowlands will just be BfA redux until they decide to stop devoting massive resources into gimmick anima power for Torghast and make the classes/spec have enough in their base kits and talents to be varied and fun EVRYWHERE, not just the xpac borrowed power aspects.

[Beingbob]

Sad that balance druids are so unenthusiastic about these changes. From an outsider's perspective, Legion and BfA moonkin are extremely shallow and boring specs with very little interesting going on (1 cooldown that only increases damage with no special interactions, two dots that have no interesting effects except needing to be maintain, then press ST/AoE build/spender based on which lights up/is best for the situation). While the Eclipse system may not be perfect, at least it's a unique mechanic with potential for a higher skill cap and a more engaging playstyle.

I think people need to decouple performance from playstyle - just because the Eclipse system requires some setup doesn't mean the performance will always be lacking compared to braindead specs like BM etc, that's more a matter of tuning. If all the 'limit to 5 targets' AoE nerfs go through, then melee AoE will be significantly weaker than currently, while balance AoE with uncapped starfall and mass doting will be more valuable by comparison, especially since the spread AoE/cleave niche is back with the Starfall change. Also, while somewhat niche, balance druid looks to be the hybrid spec with the most varied utility spells available - Stampeding Roar, Cyclone, Typhoon, Ursol's Vortex, Mass Root and Heart of the Wild... That may or may not matter much for mythic raid spots, but in M+ it will probably be a big deal and make balance druids more desired than before even though there may be a larger ramp up time.

[huth]

Sad that balance druids are so unenthusiastic about these changes.

Because we're going from boring, but practical to gimmicky, but not really all that much more interesting. We still mostly have the same situation as before, except now we're locked into AE or ST mode for 10 seconds.

Given that the spec worked just fine for two expansions and was a hell of a lot more fluid than previous iterations, i really don't see the point of the changes.

[lappee]

Because we're going from boring, but practical to gimmicky, but not really all that much more interesting. We still mostly have the same situation as before, except now we're locked into AE or ST mode for 10 seconds.

Given that the spec worked just fine for two expansions and was a hell of a lot more fluid than previous iterations, i really don't see the point of the changes.

Thats not exactly true, given how the spec & numbers currently work in Alpha. Solar being better for both, which is a problem with dots being so underpowered.

And I'd argue against the spec working fine for two expansions, I'd actually say Legion and BfA iterations are almost the worst ones (only WoD being worse) of the spec. You literally don't need to think what spell to use atm, just press 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 in any order and you're good - get some procs and you're super.