[Balance] Shadowlands Class Updates

[Tyze]

Can we not like remove AP now and get shooting stars back instead? And charges on Starsurge?

Also, old Starsurge animation.

[huth]

Thats not exactly true, given how the spec & numbers currently work in Alpha. Solar being better for both, which is a problem with dots being so underpowered.

And I'd argue against the spec working fine for two expansions, I'd actually say Legion and BfA iterations are almost the worst ones (only WoD being worse) of the spec. You literally don't need to think what spell to use atm, just press 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 in any order and you're good - get some procs and you're super.

Well, that's arguably worse, since that just means you're locked into bad mode every other Eclipse.

You're not really describing anything not working, though. Yes, it's not exactly the most interesting gameplay and probably has to much room for error, but i wasn't arguing against that. But it doesn't require you to jump through odd hoops, plant a garden before being able to fight, play in a counterintuitive manner or anything like that.

And i'd definitely disagree with any claim that pre-1.8 wasn't the worst iteration.

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Can we not like remove AP now and get shooting stars back instead? And charges on Starsurge?

Also, old Starsurge animation.

AP pretty much just is a more granular charges on Starsurge, so that wouldn't really change that much.

[lappee]

Well, that's arguably worse, since that just means you're locked into bad mode every other Eclipse.

You're not really describing anything not working, though. Yes, it's not exactly the most interesting gameplay and probably has to much room for error, but i wasn't arguing against that. But it doesn't require you to jump through odd hoops, plant a garden before being able to fight, play in a counterintuitive manner or anything like that.

Depends on the numbers, if the difference is 5% or less then it really doesn't matter (enough reward for high level gameplay, but not the end of the world if you don't make it)

Every iteration "has worked" though, the difference is what you can do to differentiate yourself from others and last 2 expansions there hasn't been anythign - no hoops, no gardens or "counterintuitive manner".
I guess it comes down to preference, and I prefer there to be gameplay decisions that affect the outcome - delaying eclipse to get the best usage out of it is definitely more than what we have right now, which alone makes it a better iteration for me.

[Tyze]

Well, that's arguably worse, since that just means you're locked into bad mode every other Eclipse.

You're not really describing anything not working, though. Yes, it's not exactly the most interesting gameplay and probably has to much room for error, but i wasn't arguing against that. But it doesn't require you to jump through odd hoops, plant a garden before being able to fight, play in a counterintuitive manner or anything like that.

And i'd definitely disagree with any claim that pre-1.8 wasn't the worst iteration.

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AP pretty much just is a more granular charges on Starsurge, so that wouldn't really change that much.

We would get Shooting Stars back, some unpredictable procs. Me personally enjoy some procs playstyle

[Ihazpaws]

Why they can't make the starfire hit like a truck with stunning/dazing/rooting effect and give us back mushrooms and insect swarm. Whole solar thing is just boring and stupid.

Basic cycle of dealing damage: Hardcast starfire(adds moonfire on the target)-insect swarm-wrath-wrath-starsurge(wrath and moonfire gives resource for starsurge)-wrath-wrath-starsurge-instant starfire(starsurge shortens cast time of starfire 50% per cast and increases the dmg a lot).
Moonfire and insect swarm must be refreshed when running out of time (moonfire refresh also when target is hit with starfire).

Currently it feels like you are casting same spells twice because they are pretty much same with different color and for colorblind like me I cannot even see the damn difference...

[Beingbob]

Why they can't make the starfire hit like a truck with stunning/dazing/rooting effect and give us back mushrooms and insect swarm. Whole solar thing is just boring and stupid.

Basic cycle of dealing damage: Hardcast starfire(adds moonfire on the target)-insect swarm-wrath-wrath-starsurge(wrath and moonfire gives resource for starsurge)-wrath-wrath-starsurge-instant starfire(starsurge shortens cast time of starfire 50% per cast and increases the dmg a lot).
Moonfire and insect swarm must be refreshed when running out of time (moonfire refresh also when target is hit with starfire).

Currently it feels like you are casting same spells twice because they are pretty much same with different color and for colorblind like me I cannot even see the damn difference...

Because that's some boring ass gameplay from like 2009 MMOs that just doesn't cut it anymore for people who have evolved since then and want to have interesting gameplay with a certain level of skill ceiling. Seriously, what you're describing is basically the open world rotation of warlocks in literally vanilla (keep up 2-3 dots, use shadowbolt or searing pain, every so often you get an instant shadowbolt proc).

[Lucrece]

Because that's some boring ass gameplay from like 2009 MMOs that just doesn't cut it anymore for people who have evolved since then and want to have interesting gameplay with a certain level of skill ceiling. Seriously, what you're describing is basically the open world rotation of warlocks in literally vanilla (keep up 2-3 dots, use shadowbolt or searing pain, every so often you get an instant shadowbolt proc).

Well, there's always feral within the class for you.

I find that impractical specs with tons to juggle are rarely if ever rewarded for the extra effort they take to pull off. Case in point, feral and Legion demonology. It's all tedious work involving carefully curated auras and add ons to be at best in the middle of the pack while mages, rogues, DH, hunter, DK and warriors roll their face on a keyboard and vomit DPS.

[Ihazpaws]

Because that's some boring ass gameplay from like 2009 MMOs that just doesn't cut it anymore for people who have evolved since then and want to have interesting gameplay with a certain level of skill ceiling. Seriously, what you're describing is basically the open world rotation of warlocks in literally vanilla (keep up 2-3 dots, use shadowbolt or searing pain, every so often you get an instant shadowbolt proc).

90% of specs have "boring" rotation. You can always play feral or demo if you wanna complicated and many times unfun rotatio cycle.
The point with "boring" and simple rotatio is to make the class viable for many different counters and pvp. Current boomking just have it's spells twice with different colors.
Specially in pvp if the dmg cycle is easy, you can do much in short time making the enemy team have to counter you which makes your gameplay more challening but sametime rewarding because you are causing problems for enemies and making a mark in a battle. And then having a skill that makes difference in seconds, a powerful skill that others fear, if you manage to get resources for it and use it succesfully it feels damn good. As a example Greater pyroblast and oldsachool Chaosbolts.

"Boring" and simple rotatio is usually better than challening and fustrating one. Also many casters need nowadays good ways to throw powerful instant casts because melee classes are so dominating in almost every situation. Stuns, slows and roots have gone out of hand on so many melee specs that there really is only 2 caster dps that actually can win 1v1 or 1v2+ situations and you know why? They have "boring" simple rotatio with very powerful skill or 2 that everyone other fears. And if they get out those skills, enemy is gonna have to fight defensively.

Also in pve it means nothing anymore to be able to put out crazy dmg with a class that is hard to play and master. Instead all the praise goes to that Havoc who was able to press 2 buttons and do crazy dmg because blizzard is too lazy to balance the classes every expansion.

[[Apok]]

Wouldn't mind new moon seeing decent use again.

Perhaps an interaction with eclipses and stellar flare.

When in a lunar eclipse
Full moon leaves Lunar dust on the target doing xx damage over xx seconds.
stellar flare ignites lunar dust consuming the dot but doing aoe damage to enemies.


Solar eclipse
Full moon becomes - Solar strike.
Strikes the target for xx damage has a chance to cause a vortex of solar winds to erupt around the target which deal periodic damage to nearby enemies.

Probably a terrible idea, but its what lack of sleep does.

[Chewbaka]

We've already got reports. It mostly works like the WotLK incarnation(25% chance to proc on the opposite spell, 30s CD), except there's a clear distinction between ST and cleave Eclipses.

I'd have preferred the Starfall change without the rest. This smacks of change for the sake of change.

Random procs were fun, until you find out the Moonkins have very few threat mitigating tools. In WOTLK, I was smashed many times just by coming out of the gate with a random proc and ripping threat off the tank.

[Biomega]

Make Streaking Stars baseline (or at least a talent, maybe the ST go-to).

Roll the Arcanic Pulsar functionality into New Moon, so that you can ramp into a mini-empowerment every now and then and create predictable, short burst windows.

[huth]

Random procs were fun, until you find out the Moonkins have very few threat mitigating tools. In WOTLK, I was smashed many times just by coming out of the gate with a random proc and ripping threat off the tank.

Eh, neither is a concern anymore. Eclipse is now fully deterministic, and Threat hasn't been a significant issue outside of Skittish for a long time.

[[Apok]]

Random procs were fun, until you find out the Moonkins have very few threat mitigating tools. In WOTLK, I was smashed many times just by coming out of the gate with a random proc and ripping threat off the tank.

That was a key part of being a boomkin back then!

Make Streaking Stars baseline (or at least a talent, maybe the ST go-to).

Roll the Arcanic Pulsar functionality into New Moon, so that you can ramp into a mini-empowerment every now and then and create predictable, short burst windows.

Not bad ideas, New moon base-line with streaking stars talented in it's place, changing shooting stars also capable of proccing from starfall damage.

[GringoD]

(and btw Starfalling those adds is a bad choice - unless you want to max pad while no1 else dpses them)

I'd argue that about the only important thing in that fight is that the adds die. We always had some of them survive the burst AoE. You do what you gotta do without fire mages imho.

And thats where our views differ, you want to be able to do everything all the time while I actually want my choices and button presses to actually matter (even if I ocasionally have to cast my Wraths and Starfires for ~9% longer, whippedoo)

Sure. In the end Moonkin will lag behind in key moments because he'll either be locked out of the right eclipse or lose a significant amount of uptime because he delays. All while other classes don't have to sabotage their core rotation for some illusion of choice wish fulfillment. We already had this problem with previous eclipse rotations and I dread to go back to that.

[Kazmiras]

90% of specs have "boring" rotation. You can always play feral or demo if you wanna complicated and many times unfun rotatio cycle.
The point with "boring" and simple rotatio is to make the class viable for many different counters and pvp. Current boomking just have it's spells twice with different colors.
Specially in pvp if the dmg cycle is easy, you can do much in short time making the enemy team have to counter you which makes your gameplay more challening but sametime rewarding because you are causing problems for enemies and making a mark in a battle. And then having a skill that makes difference in seconds, a powerful skill that others fear, if you manage to get resources for it and use it succesfully it feels damn good. As a example Greater pyroblast and oldsachool Chaosbolts.

"Boring" and simple rotatio is usually better than challening and fustrating one. Also many casters need nowadays good ways to throw powerful instant casts because melee classes are so dominating in almost every situation. Stuns, slows and roots have gone out of hand on so many melee specs that there really is only 2 caster dps that actually can win 1v1 or 1v2+ situations and you know why? They have "boring" simple rotatio with very powerful skill or 2 that everyone other fears. And if they get out those skills, enemy is gonna have to fight defensively.

Also in pve it means nothing anymore to be able to put out crazy dmg with a class that is hard to play and master. Instead all the praise goes to that Havoc who was able to press 2 buttons and do crazy dmg because blizzard is too lazy to balance the classes every expansion.

Hi,


Recently you wrote the following in a thread:
"Boring" and simple rotatio is usually better than challening and fustrating one. Also many casters need nowadays good ways to throw powerful instant casts because melee classes are so dominating in almost every situation. Stuns, slows and roots have gone out of hand on so many melee specs that there really is only 2 caster dps that actually can win 1v1 or 1v2+ situations and you know why? They have "boring" simple rotatio with very powerful skill or 2 that everyone other fears. And if they get out those skills, enemy is gonna have to fight defensively.”

I agree with your comments!

Can you please tell me which 2 caster dps specs can win 1v1 or 1v2+ situations (because they have boring and simple rotations?

I am really curious to know which two specs they are.

I have always played a healer and I am looking for a change. I am not an elite player and I am not a highy skilled player. I am trying to figure out which caster dps specs can win with an easy and boring rotation against 1vs1 or 1 vs2+.

Please let me know and thank you!

[Azzurri]

The problem I have with Balance going into SL, is that it looks very boring. I know we don't really know a lot about conduits and all the legendary's and some other stuff, but the core game play right now looks boring.

I mean cast 3 wraths to get into lunar eclipse so I can AoE and vice versa, then cast SS to extend it ever so many seconds. It just feels boring that 90% of you rotation is just alternating between your filler spells.

I wish the eclipse's would do something actually cool, like lunar would empower the New Moon spell and Solar would empower Solar flare or whatever cool spell we have.

[huth]

The problem I have with Balance going into SL, is that it looks very boring. I know we don't really know a lot about conduits and all the legendary's and some other stuff, but the core game play right now looks boring.

I mean cast 3 wraths to get into lunar eclipse so I can AoE and vice versa, then cast SS to extend it ever so many seconds. It just feels boring that 90% of you rotation is just alternating between your filler spells.

I wish the eclipse's would do something actually cool, like lunar would empower the New Moon spell and Solar would empower Solar flare or whatever cool spell we have.

That's kind of the problem. It's mostly the same as now, except you're more strongly locked in.

[Fartoo]

I just want them to make new moon viable again. Dropping a huge full moon on top of your enemies' heads just has some satisfying feeling to it. You're ramping it up, then BAM, a gazillion damage.
I am pretty disappointed that they haven't touched that talent the entire expansion, because it is by far the worst pick, can't even compare it to the damage output of other two talents.

[Azzurri]

They just changed it to only 2 cast to end eclipse.

At this point, why not just remove it?

[huth]

They just changed it to only 2 cast to end eclipse.

At this point, why not just remove it?

You mean start.