[Balance] Shadowlands Class Updates

[Well]

It's kinda to be expected, since it's the only ability with a downside. But even if Ravenous Frenzy ekes out a small dps gain, it's still going to be annoying to deal with in a given context and especially useless in PvP. If you know it's going to suck for you, then it's probably okay to pick something else. Kinda like staying below 40 corruption.

It's not useless in PvP. If you get cced, the counter stops and you will not suffer the consequences. It's fully up to you to mess up, unless a Priest mind controls you.

[GringoD]

It's not useless in PvP. If you get cced, the counter stops and you will not suffer the consequences. It's fully up to you to mess up, unless a Priest mind controls you.

Silences still count though, right? Popping Frenzy makes for a nice target on your head. Any competent arena team will make sure you regret going vamp.

[huth]

Silences still count though, right? Popping Frenzy makes for a nice target on your head. Any competent arena team will make sure you regret going vamp.

Good luck silencing swipe.

[lappee]

Sims are clear. If things stay as they are now, Venthyr is the winner for balance in all situations, be it ST or MT. There's no doubt about that.

In most situations, but not all. Sims are very specific about what they're simmed for.

And did I mention that the ONLY build New Moon is used in is the Night Fae + Pulsar one? Ye... no other build uses it. It's primarily Fury of Elune and then Solstice. Why can't they finally make New Moon viable and powerful? It's so iconic.

Sounds to me like it is rather close to being balanced tier of talents. And no, Moons isn't iconic spell at all.

[Well]

Silences still count though, right? Popping Frenzy makes for a nice target on your head. Any competent arena team will make sure you regret going vamp.

Even Flap counts as not being idle! Switching forms too.

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In most situations, but not all. Sims are very specific about what they're simmed for.



Sounds to me like it is rather close to being balanced tier of talents. And no, Moons isn't iconic spell at all.

It is all. It's top in ST and top in MT. NF and CtS just does not compete. Even Kyrian is ahead of NF in ST. Do not spread misinformation especially when you're not even attempting to say what kind of situation it's supposedly better in.

And no, you're just wrong. It is not a balanced tier of talents as proven by the sims, since the talent is only used in one single setup that is 15% dps behind than the top build and yes, Moon is iconic.

[huth]

It is all. It's top in ST and top in MT. NF and CtS just does not compete.

Light movement, heavy movement, patchwork, priority target, regularly appearing new targets etc.?

"All" isn't just ST and MT.

[Well]

Light movement, heavy movement, patchwork, priority target, regularly appearing new targets etc.?

"All" isn't just ST and MT.

That is not an argument. Unless you pinpoint and mathetically compute the mentioned encounters, there's nothing to base what you're saying. The sims are clear no matter if people like it or not.

[huth]

That is not an argument. Unless you pinpoint and mathetically compute the mentioned encounters, there's nothing to base what you're saying. The sims are clear no matter if people like it or not.

Of course there is. Simulations are just that: a simulated version of the actual behaviour, often simplified and thus incomplete.

You're putting far to much trust in something that is somewhat unreliable by design.

That's not to mention that most of those are existing simcraft options.

[Well]

Of course there is. Simulations are just that: a simulated version of the actual behaviour, often simplified and thus incomplete.

You're putting far to much trust in something that is somewhat unreliable by design.

That's not to mention that most of those are existing simcraft options.

Sims have been ran. Unless you can link the supposed sims you're claiming are there and show that Venthyr is not top in every situation, you got nothing. Encounters are the same for all and seeing how frenzy is an instant, off the gcd ability it is not hindered by movement. It is helpful in priority targeting while CtS is RNG and can even target immune targets and the more targets that come into play, the better Frenzy gets as proven by the math.

Theres nothing of value in what you're writing.

[TickTickTick]

@Well I wouldn't even try arguing, this subforum has a weird agenda of pushing Night Fae as the best, probably because of the theme. As you said, simmulations have been run (by people more knowledgeable than random mmo-champion posters), the numbers are there, but there's always going to be someone nitpicking some weird arguments - which, interesingly enough, can be applied to CoS too, only that they affect this spell a lot worse.

I'd expect someone raiding heroic and mythic to know well enough what are the windows to use cooldowns. If Revenous Frenzy is bad because of light movement (???) then we might as well call CA the same. And I'm curious how great CoS would be on light movement fights when you suddenly are required to move, disrupting a channel of a spell which is already RNG and requires additional conditional positioning (but then, out of nowhere, the "think before the fight" argument becomes relevant, right?).

Some people here just can't handle being wrong, even when presented with numbers in multiple situations. I'm not a theorycrafter, so I just listen to feedback of people smarter than me, who spent time on thorough analysis. If some people insist on remaining within their bubble then let them.

Of course Blizzard is also to blame, but it was obvious from the moment they announced covenants that they won't be successful in balancing them (who knew?).

[GringoD]

Even Flap counts as not being idle! Switching forms too.

Good luck silencing swipe.

Granted. Still, instead of doing anything productive, we waste a damage cooldown and flail around to not get stunned by ourselves. It's worse because the effect of Frenzy is backloaded. Honestly any of the other abilities is more attractive at that point.

[TickTickTick]

Granted. Still, instead of doing anything productive, we waste a damage cooldown and flail around to not get stunned by ourselves. It's worse because the effect of Frenzy is backloaded. Honestly any of the other abilities is more attractive at that point.

When do you have time for flailing around? The most important rule for a caster is ABC, so even on movement it's more beneficial to spam sunfire (and stack the buff further) than just flail around.

But I mean... whatever. What a ridiculously stark difference of a discussion between here and dreamgrove discord.

[huth]

Sims have been ran. Unless you can link the supposed sims you're claiming are there

Now hold on a second. You're the one claiming they exist. You are the person simply saying that CtS is always worse without actually providing any evidence other than saying "it has been simmed", which is only evidence that it is worse in simulations, not in the actual game.

I'm simply questioning your argument, not claiming the opposite.

[Well]

@Well I wouldn't even try arguing, this subforum has a weird agenda of pushing Night Fae as the best, probably because of the theme. As you said, simmulations have been run (by people more knowledgeable than random mmo-champion posters), the numbers are there, but there's always going to be someone nitpicking some weird arguments - which, interesingly enough, can be applied to CoS too, only that they affect this spell a lot worse.

I'd expect someone raiding heroic and mythic to know well enough what are the windows to use cooldowns. If Revenous Frenzy is bad because of light movement (???) then we might as well call CA the same. And I'm curious how great CoS would be on light movement fights when you suddenly are required to move, disrupting a channel of a spell which is already RNG and requires additional conditional positioning (but then, out of nowhere, the "think before the fight" argument becomes relevant, right?).

Some people here just can't handle being wrong, even when presented with numbers in multiple situations. I'm not a theorycrafter, so I just listen to feedback of people smarter than me, who spent time on thorough analysis. If some people insist on remaining within their bubble then let them.

Of course Blizzard is also to blame, but it was obvious from the moment they announced covenants that they won't be successful in balancing them (who knew?).

Thank you! This is exactly what a person that has their brain in their skull should be thinking and that's exactly the way he or she should be thinking. Thank you again.

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Granted. Still, instead of doing anything productive, we waste a damage cooldown and flail around to not get stunned by ourselves. It's worse because the effect of Frenzy is backloaded. Honestly any of the other abilities is more attractive at that point.

You are not wasting anything. If you use Frenzy is such a bad manner, you're going to use CoS or any other covenant or not ability in the same way and be even more penalised for it. CoS is much more counterable than Frenzy and has a much wider margin of things going wrong even when everything is in place.

If you use Frenzy in a window during which you will be using your cds like CA/Incarnation or Tree of Life for resto (as you should), then you're going to receive an immense benefit for it that is not hindered by anything and is also amplified by your spec's cds' bonuses.

If you use CoS in the same manner, you're guaranteed to waste spells cast from it because of its pure RNG (and even tinkered in your favour) nature. Even in the best RNG selected spells scenario, CoS is still behind. Blame Blizzard, don't try to argue with math you can't dispute by resorting to nonsense or arguments that also apply to your supported choice and hinder it even more than what you're attacking in an extremely niche or bad player choice scenario.

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Now hold on a second. You're the one claiming they exist. You are the person simply saying that CtS is always worse without actually providing any evidence other than saying "it has been simmed", which is only evidence that it is worse in simulations, not in the actual game.

I'm simply questioning your argument, not claiming the opposite.

You're simply clueless then.
https://www.dreamgrove.gg/beta/

[lappee]

It is all. It's top in ST and top in MT. NF and CtS just does not compete. Even Kyrian is ahead of NF in ST. Do not spread misinformation especially when you're not even attempting to say what kind of situation it's supposedly better in.

And no, you're just wrong. It is not a balanced tier of talents as proven by the sims, since the talent is only used in one single setup that is 15% dps behind than the top build and yes, Moon is iconic.

It isn't top in all situations.

Convoke for example is better for quick movement, (roughly any) PvP and short burst (AoE, or ST - even if it is ~completely wasted when used for AoE) to give a couple examples. It isn't better in Simc 6 minute Patchwerk or Simc 6 min constant AoE, which are the only things the Simcs currently provide - and since you didn't actually provide any links to sims, here let me help you https://www.dreamgrove.gg/beta/.

And those sims prove that the talent row is rather balanced, yes FoE is better with almost any setup in those simcs but taking the highest simming covenant and NM is only 2.5% behind in total dps - in simc situations. Most of that is due to BOAT being broken and rather useless for NM (literally waste to cast it during BOAT window due to long cast time). You take BOAT away and they're within 1% difference - around 60 dps.

And no, Moons isn't iconic. You can say its fun, but it certainly isn't iconic as it has been in the game for two expansions where it was actually only used in one. Moonfire, Starfire and Wrath are iconic balance druid dps spells and Moonkin form is iconic. Know the difference.

[GringoD]

You are not wasting anything. If you use Frenzy is such a bad manner, you're going to use CoS or any other covenant or not ability in the same way and be even more penalised for it. CoS is much more counterable than Frenzy and has a much wider margin of things going wrong even when everything is in place.

If you use Frenzy in a window during which you will be using your cds like CA/Incarnation or Tree of Life for resto (as you should), then you're going to receive an immense benefit for it that is not hindered by anything and is also amplified by your spec's cds' bonuses.

You have me playing devils advocate now, since I wasn't even talking about CoS, just Frenzy. CoS is a prime interrupt target, but at least you got a chance to get that thing off given the enemy doesn't switch fast enough. Since Frenzy is backloaded, the enemy has more time to counter the effect. Any competent arena team will always tunnel or cc you during your burst window. Frenzy just reinforces that even more.

If you use CoS in the same manner, you're guaranteed to waste spells cast from it because of its pure RNG (and even tinkered in your favour) nature. Even in the best RNG selected spells scenario, CoS is still behind. Blame Blizzard, don't try to argue with math you can't dispute by resorting to nonsense or arguments that also apply to your supported choice and hinder it even more than what you're attacking in an extremely niche or bad player choice scenario.

This is still about PvP, yes? You know that you're not fighting some target dummies that you can patchwerk sim for? Trying to solve that one with just math is not the right approach my dude.

[TickTickTick]

You have me playing devils advocate now, since I wasn't even talking about CoS, just Frenzy. CoS is a prime interrupt target, but at least you got a chance to get that thing off given the enemy doesn't switch fast enough. Since Frenzy is backloaded, the enemy has more time to counter the effect. Any competent arena team will always tunnel or cc you during your burst window. Frenzy just reinforces that even more.



This is still about PvP, yes? You know that you're not fighting some target dummies that you can patchwerk sim for? Trying to solve that one with just math is not the right approach my dude.

I thought we were talking strictly PvE, therefore talks about simming, fight movement and general knowledge about the encounter.

If we're talking about PvP then... yes I guess? Wasn't it the main "feature" of covenants that different covenants will be better for different situations? Weren't people complaining that you'll have to be constantly switching to remain competetive in both PvE and PvP?

Yes, on first glance both Venthyr spells are pretty bad for PvP (instant blink and channeled burst coming from Night Fae are better in this case), but I was under an impression that we're talking about PvE. After all, if you're thinking seriously about being competetive in PvP, you won't be playing balance druid.

[huth]

You're simply clueless then.
https://www.dreamgrove.gg/beta/

Maybe you should actually read before you respond. For one, Well didn't provide that data, just claimed it exists. Also, that still doesn't make the claim that CtS is worse correct, only the claim that it sims worse. The site even states that most of what they're doing are just approximations and guesses.

[GringoD]

I thought we were talking strictly PvE, therefore talks about simming, fight movement and general knowledge about the encounter.

If we're talking about PvP then... yes I guess?

The quote chain got started with me saying Frenzy is bad for PvP. Didn't know I had to argue the point this hard.

After all, if you're thinking seriously about being competetive in PvP, you won't be playing balance druid.

What, if I wanna climb rating with my main I can't be serious? That's a load of crock, if you forgive my french.

[Lahis]

What, if I wanna climb rating with my main I can't be serious? That's a load of crock, if you forgive my french.

Well, yeah. Boomkin hasn't been viable part of PvP meta since ever.