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  1. #41
    Now if they just reversed their stance on ARPG gameplay borrowed from Diablo 3 (looking at you M+)

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Evolve? Move forward? They're addicted to iterating the game, of prioritising systems over content. Think of how much effort was wasted in the past three expansions setting up garrisons, or the artifact weapon grind and netherlight crucible, or fixing the failure that is azerite.

    It's all very well to say 'evolve' and 'move forward' and nobody should complain if they fix something that is broken, but all they keep doing is a cycle of iteration, systemisation and then correction.

    If Shadowlands finally provides a working model we can all get behind, of loot being loot, of professions mattering, of a Torghast style dungeon, of craftable and customisable legendaries, why should all that be junked for yet another spin of the wheel that could deliver us another WOD or BFA?

    I'm sorry but it's no use saying 'you applaud each attempt'. If that is what you do you have to be unique. We scream about it on the forums. We make sure they never forget their failures. BFA will be thrown in their faces as often as WOD still is.

    What we need is a stable, consistent system with player buy in which they then deliver a steady stream of content to us rather than wasting their time attempting to fix the problems their own iteration has caused. There is nothing at all undesirable about having such consistency, as while you may applaud a failed experiment, a failed experiment is something we have to spend two years of our lives dealing with and their iteration doesn't always end up improving the game, as the tick-tock cycle of bad/good expansions since Cata has proven.

    Other successful MMOs have hit on stable gameplay formulas and they don't tinker with their core systems anywhere near as much as WoW has. If Shadowlands hits upon a formula that actually works, Blizzard should use it as the default going forward and stop trying to fix what isn't broken for the sake of it.
    I just think...being in the "comfort zone" is the enemy to progress. Thats all.
    In all things.

    Does Blizzard has the responsability to try and progress? No...but i want them to.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Now if they just reversed their stance on ARPG gameplay borrowed from Diablo 3 (looking at you M+)
    How about no?

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  4. #44
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    I think it's a good thing for the developers to acknowledge they've made some errors and judgment and seek to reverse or at least find middle ground on some of the more highly contested elements of retail WoW. I can understand why they might feel the need to be protective of their work - this is their baby, after all, and there's more than a little pride involved in defending it from caustic and/or destructive criticism (the majority of the kind we sadly tend to employ). More importantly than this, though; is the idea that Blizzard has reversed its previous (and wrongheaded) stance on providing feedback and soliciting feedback directly from the playerbase. I am sure there's a lot of toxicity to slog through, but this is required in order for the playerbase not to feel disenfranchised by the developers' silence - a problem we've had since WoD and which came to a head in BfA. Shadowlands, in addition to its many reversals and returns to form in terms of gameplay, also heralds a return to form of developer/player communication, and this too will be a net boon to the game going forward if it continues.
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    They've backflipped on almost all their egregious design choices.

    Almost everything every level headed person has been saying is wrong with the game is getting fixed in Shadowlands. It's almost like Ion and his legion of fanboys were wrong the whole time.

    Let loot be loot.
    Vendors and currencies back for PvP.
    No titanforging or shitty RNG system of any kind.
    Un-pruning classes.
    Craftable legendaries.
    Making professions matter again.
    Less loot will drop making loot more meaningful - no more vendoring thousands of epics every expansion.
    Potential return of class themed sets.

    World of Warcraft: Shadowlands. ("Please stop leaving our game, you were right.")


    I mean there is still some shit things like we don't know much about Anima Power(AP) and the Covenant abilities can NEVER be balanced(Blizzard is dogshit at balancing).

    At this point though it turns out the Blizz Defenders were wrong. It's too early to celebrate but from a pessimist at least they're saying all the right things. Ion is a pathological liar though so only time will tell.
    possibly BUT if the players come back with an attitude like: OMG THIS GAME SUX WTF IS THIS SHIT?!?!?!? then the players are morons and the devs are just sane people trying to do the impossible

    if the players take a more normal reaction and appreciate the fact that their feedback is actually implemented into the game, then yes, players were right

    besides many of the (hated) changes over the years were based on player feedback

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    Apparently you are having trouble reading. I said "at this point" and "it's too early to celebrate". Just gloss over it though and provide a snarky response.
    No, you're just not doing what you're saying. Words are cheap.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Dude...member when we saw anti-titanforging threads everyday and we thought "everyone" hated it?

    And then...member now when we had a couple "i miss titanforging" threads?

    Literally impossible.
    People who miss titanforging are just mad that they cannot get the best loot in the game anymore through easy heroic raids.

  8. #48
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Nah, Shadowlands will be just as disliked as BfA as long as it's current. There's no such thing as a WoW expansion that's good whilst current to the vocal minority active on forums and social media.

    Whilst not part of that crowd myself, I'm managing my expectations. Am not filled with confidence in regards to my own class, for example.
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  9. #49
    My spec still has a one-dimensional playstyle that came with Legion and stayed with BFA, so no not really.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    Nah, Shadowlands will be just as disliked as BfA as long as it's current. There's no such thing as a WoW expansion that's good whilst current to the vocal minority active on forums and social media.

    Whilst not part of that crowd myself, I'm managing my expectations. Am not filled with confidence in regards to my own class, for example.
    But he is not saying no one will rage

    He is saying Shadowlands is the "well see if players were right" expansion (i changed the title a little bit)

  11. #51
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blankfaced View Post
    Nonononono....it's the "we'll see if the players are right" expansion.....big difference.
    Actually IMHO: No matter what it is...we will be back to "these players who were right" becoming the ones called "fanbois" if they like what SL will be and others dislike it. It would be hilarious if the table turned, but in the end I think we will see the same ppl on the same sides.

    And Op already added his little caveat at the end. After saying

    "Shadowlands is the "players were right" expansion."

    "Almost everything ..... is getting fixed in Shadowlands."

    "...it turns out the Blizz Defenders were wrong"

    Not wording these things as possibiliy, but as a FACT.

    And then pulling out with that tiny addition of "...It's too early to celebrate". Buddy, you just did celebrate and rubbed it into the faces of the ppl who disagreed with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, you're just not doing what you're saying. Words are cheap.
    Agreed, see above. Gonna bookmark this thread and see where we are in 7 months ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanu View Post

    besides many of the (hated) changes over the years were based on player feedback
    One of my favorite must have been how flying attitude apparently changed for "the players" over the years. AFAIK players had such a hard-on for flying that they buggered Blizzard to make it possible in Azeroth and..well..obviously they did it "wrong" because...Cata (though I think it was a great idea to do it by destroying parts and streamlining questing) but also slowly but surely it drifted into this whole "Flying should have never implemented" stuff and a 1000+pages thread on "Flying, yes / no?"

    So much for what "players want" if a 50% 50% question goes on 1000 pages.
    Last edited by det; 2020-04-15 at 02:09 PM.

  12. #52
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    I just think...being in the "comfort zone" is the enemy to progress. Thats all.
    In all things.

    Does Blizzard has the responsability to try and progress? No...but i want them to.
    What's wrong with the comfort zone? People want to be in comfort zones. Comfort zones are pleasant. And this is a game after all, you want to be in a comfort zone when playing a game.

    The facts are stark. In the past three expansions Blizzard has engaged in iterative behaviour for it's own sake.

    Warlords's garrison feature cratered the expansion.

    Legion was fun, but it 'diablo-fied' the game, with systems designed to support the artifact weapons and which obscured that system's drawbacks.

    BFA attempted to replace the missing artifact weapons with something else, and they sank a ton of developer time into attempting to correct the disaster that turned out to be.

    There has to be an end. Settle on your core systems such as loot and where people get it as well as a catch up mechanism. Keep it consistent from expansion to expansion. If you have to iterate, do so around the edges with systems that don't impact this core loop. A new class, a new race or even player housing, things where experimentation can take place without risking the creation of an unfun game we have to suffer through in the hopes the next expansion will be better.

    Iteration for the sake of it is the enemy of fun. Iteration for the sake of it wastes time that could be spent building content. 8.3 is clearly a pared back version of what they wanted to do. 8.3.5 was cut entirely. So was 6.2. Stable systems that players like and MORE CONTENT rather than continually tinkering with the game's guts is the ticket to success.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Should this expansion turn out to work and the design decisions are validated, Blizzard needs to do one thing for 10.0.

    Nothing. Constant iteration has heavily damage this game as they strive to reinvent it with every expansion. If Shadowlands is the working formula, STOP ITERATING. Just create new content, new quests, new zones, new stories. If 10.0 is the same game as 9.0, what of it if 9.0 was a wild success?

    If that requires a new roguelike dungeon for Torghast, just do another one. If crafting our own legendaries is a brilliant system, just do that again.

    No need to continually reinvent the wheel which each expansion because there's 50/50 chance doing so will make the next expansion suck.
    Strongly disagree.

    Vanilla was a wild success. Why did Blizzard add heroic dungeons in TBC? Why innovate on class design? Why add flying?

    TBC was even more successful. Why further innovate on classes in WotLK? Why add a new PvP scenario with Wintergrasp? Battlegrounds are great! Why add a new class? Aren't the current classes enough?

    You get the point. Blizzard has designed some doozies over the past 16 years, but we wouldn't be near where we are today without that constant innovation. This same logic can be applied to any product really. "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." -Henry Ford. Etc etc.

    Sid Meier coined a game design principle called the rule of 33s. When designing a new iteration of a game, the idea is that it should be 33% new, 33% improved, and 33% what players already expect. I think the WoW team has done a pretty good job at following this principle. However, the issue is when their "improved" content is actually worse, AND their new content falls flat, we get a BfA experience.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    Nah, Shadowlands will be just as disliked as BfA as long as it's current.
    Heavy doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    There's no such thing as a WoW expansion that's good whilst current to the vocal minority active on forums and social media.
    Do you have any numbers that says it's only vocal minority on the forums and social media?
    Doubt it even more.

  15. #55
    I am Murloc! Geisl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think it's a good thing for the developers to acknowledge they've made some errors and judgment and seek to reverse or at least find middle ground on some of the more highly contested elements of retail WoW. I can understand why they might feel the need to be protective of their work - this is their baby, after all, and there's more than a little pride involved in defending it from caustic and/or destructive criticism (the majority of the kind we sadly tend to employ). More importantly than this, though; is the idea that Blizzard has reversed its previous (and wrongheaded) stance on providing feedback and soliciting feedback directly from the playerbase. I am sure there's a lot of toxicity to slog through, but this is required in order for the playerbase not to feel disenfranchised by the developers' silence - a problem we've had since WoD and which came to a head in BfA. Shadowlands, in addition to its many reversals and returns to form in terms of gameplay, also heralds a return to form of developer/player communication, and this too will be a net boon to the game going forward if it continues.
    That bold is the biggest take-away imo. Yes, it is understandable it's their baby, but with how long the game has been around, and with hindsight I'm sure there's more than enough examples for Blizzard to reflect on and see where they succeeded and where they failed and if in those instances of failure - was player feedback matching it.

    I will always believe that when you're designing an online multiplayer game that requires a playerbase, then dev/player communication and player feedback is tantamount to its success. This isn't like single-player games where most of the sales are made initially with large drop offs. WoW stays successful thanks to their subscriptions and what they sell in their in-game store. I think it's sufficient to say that when player enjoyment drops, so do both subscriptions and in-game shop sales, which is why they've recently tagged on sub-promotions tied to the store mounts.

    So they should really be on-board with taking in more player feedback. It will take a lot more work ofc, but I am for slower steadier progress if it means we can avoid systems/gameplay/content being shit for 2 years because of the recently current mindset of "we don't want to have big-shake ups during an expansion" that's too long of a wait and it only exacerbates what issues exist.

  16. #56
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    I don't think they posted them, but SoulBreezy made a video about what he discovered in alpha so far. Some interesting stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGryFfFIPVI
    Thanks a lot, will check that video out

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    What's wrong with the comfort zone? People want to be in comfort zones. Comfort zones are pleasant. And this is a game after all, you want to be in a comfort zone when playing a game.
    But here is the thing.
    Back in MoP we had challenge mode, and it was a fun novelty and very well received. We move forward to WoD, same concept, and it didn't work out so well. That 'failure' lead to mythic dungeons and that has, so far, worked out really really well.
    We could say the same about world quests. They were one of the biggest improvements introduced with legion, players generally liked them instead of daily quests and yet with BfA we've seen a tendency to move away from them in latest patch content and a general distaste for them. Maybe we get a better system with shadowlands.

    I do get what you are saying and i agree up to some point (specially if we talk about borrowed power systems), but the game needs some iteration, even if something works on one expansion, it can simply stop working on the next one, be it because the content (thematically, storywise, mechanically, difficulty) is simply worse or because people get tired of it. And also we should not be deprived from new forms of content or systems just because what we have is currently working.
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  18. #58
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Heavy doubt it.



    Do you have any numbers that says it's only vocal minority on the forums and social media?
    Doubt it even more.
    It's always been common knowledge that people bothering to be active on forums and social media, are a minority vs the people just playing or not playing.

    Hell, check the stats on these forums alone. You can doubt it all you like though. Doesn't change what is and what will go down. I've seen enough expansions pass by to notice the pattern.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Or it will turn out to be the "Player were utterly wrong" expansion. You're a bit to quick to celebrate here.
    I think so as well, lack of titanforging etc will mean very little reasons to clear it multiple times

  20. #60
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    I think so as well, lack of titanforging etc will mean very little reasons to clear it multiple times
    Maybe players have changed too much over the years, but we did clear MC and BWL, hell...later the TBC raids week after week to help as many people as possible to get the gear they were missing. And that included helping people who were benched during progress, new recruits to the guild etc.

    When the speedruns in ZA rewarded a unique mount, we made a group of 10 ppl and everybody swore that they would be there to the end, no matter what so everybody got their bear. That included learning the place first, to even make the speedrun happen. And we delivered on that promise.

    Felt good...even without TF and WF.

    But ofc back then you could only take 10 ppl to Kara or ZA and other fixed sizes to other raids. Much more flexibility now and ppl don't need to sit out, you always can take 2 extra (with obvious limitations ^^)

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