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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    By not being BFA.
    You will probably love Shadowlands then.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Hm...wowhead, reddit...are there facebook groups? WoW twitter? Obviously the official wow forums. Are there many that I missed and that could account for something like at least 500 000 contributors to WoW in a "vocal" way. As a mod once said...even here if is a handful ppl going back and forth.

    So...you can insist on your point as you very well know nobody can gather the info you ask for. Even if they managed to dig up the bluepost where a dev or CM said that very few ppl are vocal on forums, most are in game playing and that is where they get most of their data from.

    But yeah "Dude trust me" as well as "the playerbase wants x" is a staple here and not least when you start to ask around how many subs retail or classic may have. Always a good source of amusement.

    And just by skimming through this thread you get tons of "I think" and "x happened because of z" without source...that is a big chunks of how forums work. Oh yeah...and not like people always come back when you present a quote or data...they usually have picked a fight with the next guy.
    I just wanted to say that it's impossible to tell if it's vocal minority or not.
    And just because it's vocal(on the forums/groups/social media) it doesn't mean they are wrong. It's like putting everyone in the big bag and calling them "vocal minority". How the hell can she actually say if they're vocal minority or not if she didn't ask them about their opinion?
    People here are just saying their opinion and that's all...

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    You mean the piss easy heroic dungeons after people were in Ulduar gear and had 6 plus months of experience in them. There were countless threads about the difficulty of many heroics especially the final bosses and how some classes couldn't tank or heal them as well as other classes. Sure we all remember the the 3.3 zerg days but you all forget the 3.0 hard as hell days.
    This is definitely not as I remember it. I remember going in and being flabbergasted the first week at how easy normal and heroic dungeons were. There were no challenges on the level of (e.g.) Heroic Shadow Labyrinth. One reason is that the ability for all tanks to tank large groups of trash without worrying about losing aggro made all dungeons easier regardless of mechanics. But neither were the bosses as hard. My memory is fuzzy, but I would say that about the hardest boss encounter in any release heroic in Wrath was Ingvar the Plunderer in Heroic Utgarde Keep. And yes, there was SOME difficulty there, but compared to Murmur or Quagmirran or Kargath? And again, the trash was uniformly just way, way, way easier.

    I was terribly disappointed by a lot of the design decisions in Wrath: a lot of decisions that most of the people in this thread would say were improvements. I totally understand and to some degree agree with the moniker of "Wrath-baby". I came back for the beginning of Cata in the hopes that Blizzard had seen the error of their ways, and was completely disillusioned (even though, yes, the heroics were harder, and I did like that). I hope they will start to court players like me again instead of players that want things that drive me away from the game, and if it means that those players are instead driven away, so be it. If we can't both be happy, I want to be happy and I want them to go play a different game.

  4. #144
    I'd argue the same about Legion basically backflipping on everything that defined WOD. It does sound promising in that respect, but as always we wait and see. I never hated titanforging but even I have to admit having none of it or corruption either would be better than our current patch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Wing View Post
    This is definitely not as I remember it. I remember going in and being flabbergasted the first week at how easy normal and heroic dungeons were. There were no challenges on the level of (e.g.) Heroic Shadow Labyrinth. One reason is that the ability for all tanks to tank large groups of trash without worrying about losing aggro made all dungeons easier regardless of mechanics. But neither were the bosses as hard. My memory is fuzzy, but I would say that about the hardest boss encounter in any release heroic in Wrath was Ingvar the Plunderer in Heroic Utgarde Keep. And yes, there was SOME difficulty there, but compared to Murmur or Quagmirran or Kargath? And again, the trash was uniformly just way, way, way easier.

    I was terribly disappointed by a lot of the design decisions in Wrath: a lot of decisions that most of the people in this thread would say were improvements. I totally understand and to some degree agree with the moniker of "Wrath-baby". I came back for the beginning of Cata in the hopes that Blizzard had seen the error of their ways, and was completely disillusioned (even though, yes, the heroics were harder, and I did like that). I hope they will start to court players like me again instead of players that want things that drive me away from the game, and if it means that those players are instead driven away, so be it. If we can't both be happy, I want to be happy and I want them to go play a different game.
    I think it has to be a balance but the work you put in should always feel meaningful and that is the key to things feeling/being more rewarding which creates a sense of player satisfaction.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - let's get real everyone, classic needs #somechanges get over it.

  6. #146
    Titan Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    And Torghast is mandatory, so does it really matter if AP is on a weapon or neck or on a dungeon?

    Yes?
    Are you fucking serious?

    Artifact power is a grindable resource to lvl your -insert artifact here- to lvl 80 or what not.
    Anima powers are instant buffs to your character for that specific torghast run you are in.

    They are not even remotely comparable.

    Trans Rights are Human Rights // Elune Says Queer Rights!

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    So no replay value is what you want personally raiding without gear upgrades defeats the purpose of raiding totally, might as well bring back the garrison table if thats where they are looking to go
    the replay value is there its called warcraftlogs compet with other palyers to be the best, this the reason i hardcore raid for 11 years by now no one except bads greed for loot good players care only for worldranks personal (logs) and guild (wowporgress) same goes for M+ player, do you think i do the +24 keys for loot? lol
    Last edited by Feral Druid ist Op; 2020-04-15 at 08:31 PM.
    BFA Season 3


  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Wing View Post
    This is definitely not as I remember it. I remember going in and being flabbergasted the first week at how easy normal and heroic dungeons were. There were no challenges on the level of (e.g.) Heroic Shadow Labyrinth. One reason is that the ability for all tanks to tank large groups of trash without worrying about losing aggro made all dungeons easier regardless of mechanics. But neither were the bosses as hard. My memory is fuzzy, but I would say that about the hardest boss encounter in any release heroic in Wrath was Ingvar the Plunderer in Heroic Utgarde Keep. And yes, there was SOME difficulty there, but compared to Murmur or Quagmirran or Kargath? And again, the trash was uniformly just way, way, way easier.

    I was terribly disappointed by a lot of the design decisions in Wrath: a lot of decisions that most of the people in this thread would say were improvements. I totally understand and to some degree agree with the moniker of "Wrath-baby". I came back for the beginning of Cata in the hopes that Blizzard had seen the error of their ways, and was completely disillusioned (even though, yes, the heroics were harder, and I did like that). I hope they will start to court players like me again instead of players that want things that drive me away from the game, and if it means that those players are instead driven away, so be it. If we can't both be happy, I want to be happy and I want them to go play a different game.
    Then you have a different recollection than most because the forums were flooded with this heroic is impossible, nerd heroics and so on until people out geared them. Most only remember queuing up for them in LFD and zerging 7, which LFD was in 3.3, so it was well after everyone knew what to expect and out geared them by a ton.

    Halls of Reflection killed groups routinely after they launched, and the the path to and the last boss of Pit as well.

    But for most they were hard. Not nearly as unforgiving as Cata Heroics, it was typically 1 boss that did it in WotLK. But as a forum regular on the official and my specific server forum, people bitched like crazy early on.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    I am still wondering and trying to find out what this mythical "playerbase" is. Nobody has answered. Can you?

    Though I really think it is "people agreeing with my opinion on a forum and I extend that to everyone thinks that way" (even though there are zero threads on any forum where people ever agreed on anything)
    Come on, dude. This is just muddying the waters at this point. What a useless fucking question.

    There's obviously some type of feedback that Blizzard manages to extract from data gathered in game, surveys, forums etc. otherwise they probably wouldn't reiterate some of the talking points we've heard a lot in the past years. The question whether 90%, 50% or only 5% of "the playerbase" (in this case, meaning the totality of all WoW players) agree with these points isn't really all that relevant when it comes to Blizzard deciding if they want to actually act on these suggestions. Therefor when I said "the playerbase" in my previous post, it's also completely irrelevant whether that encompasses a majority or just one person. Feedback is feedback and it ultimately only gets validated by Blizzard regardless of whether some random people on some forum agree with it or not.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    Ion is a pathological liar though so only time will tell.
    That guy is such a condescending pos.

    But ya seems like lots of good info for Shadowlands. I'm pretty happy about almost everything i've heard and read so far. My biggest worry is the balance between covenants/faction stuff.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    Then you have a different recollection than most because the forums were flooded with this heroic is impossible, nerd heroics and so on until people out geared them. Most only remember queuing up for them in LFD and zerging 7, which LFD was in 3.3, so it was well after everyone knew what to expect and out geared them by a ton.

    Halls of Reflection killed groups routinely after they launched, and the the path to and the last boss of Pit as well.

    But for most they were hard. Not nearly as unforgiving as Cata Heroics, it was typically 1 boss that did it in WotLK. But as a forum regular on the official and my specific server forum, people bitched like crazy early on.
    I do remember the patch 3.3 heroics being harder on release than any of the original Wrath heroics, and that seems to be what you're talking about, so maybe you and I agree to some extent. However, I was really talking only about the ones that shipped with the game (patch 3.0.2).

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Or it will turn out to be the "Player were utterly wrong" expansion. You're a bit to quick to celebrate here.
    Now here's someone who's intelligent!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    They've backflipped on almost all their egregious design choices.

    Almost everything every level headed person has been saying is wrong with the game is getting fixed in Shadowlands. It's almost like Ion and his legion of fanboys were wrong the whole time.

    Let loot be loot.
    Vendors and currencies back for PvP.
    No titanforging or shitty RNG system of any kind.
    Un-pruning classes.
    Craftable legendaries.
    Making professions matter again.
    Less loot will drop making loot more meaningful - no more vendoring thousands of epics every expansion.
    Potential return of class themed sets.

    World of Warcraft: Shadowlands. ("Please stop leaving our game, you were right.")


    I mean there is still some shit things like we don't know much about Anima Power(AP) and the Covenant abilities can NEVER be balanced(Blizzard is dogshit at balancing).

    At this point though it turns out the Blizz Defenders were wrong. It's too early to celebrate but from a pessimist at least they're saying all the right things. Ion is a pathological liar though so only time will tell.
    Absolutes are never good. Let the creators create. Take criticism from the "Fans" with a grain of salt. Add/remove where needed. WoW is approaching 16, and is almost 19 years old since the start of development, so be nice.

  13. #153
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    And just because it's vocal(on the forums/groups/social media) it doesn't mean they are wrong.

    People here are just saying their opinion and that's all...
    Indeed. Would be cool if people could see that the other guy on the other side might also be "right" and they are "wrong"

  14. #154
    You could literally say the same thing about Legion.

    Hate that Illidan was made a villain? He a good boi now!

    Want Ashbringer? You get Ashbringer, and you get Ashbringer, everyone gets Ashbringer! And Doomhammer! And Alleria's bow! and the rest.

    Dungeons are irrelevant? M+ says hi.

    Not enough world content? My dudes, we got world content IN our world content now.

    Want more power progression? We gotcha covered and then some.

    Want Argus? Ask and ye shall receive.


    One could also mention Wrath making the game a lot more accessible after the attunement and raid-heavy mess that was TBC, Cata trying to make the game harder after Wrath made casual content faceroll, or WoD going back to badass Orcs doing badass things after the lolpandas, or implementing player housing.

    Shadowlands may be the "YOU as a player were right" expansion, if you want to twist it that way. "The players" is far too general a statement to take seriously.

  15. #155
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Come on, dude. This is just muddying the waters at this point. What a useless fucking question.

    There's obviously some type of feedback that Blizzard manages to extract from data gathered in game, surveys, forums etc. otherwise they probably wouldn't reiterate some of the talking points we've heard a lot in the past years. The question whether 90%, 50% or only 5% of "the playerbase" (in this case, meaning the totality of all WoW players) agree with these points isn't really all that relevant when it comes to Blizzard deciding if they want to actually act on these suggestions. Therefor when I said "the playerbase" in my previous post, it's also completely irrelevant whether that encompasses a majority or just one person. Feedback is feedback and it ultimately only gets validated by Blizzard regardless of whether some random people on some forum agree with it or not.
    Not muddying the waters, because everyone likes to invoke this "playerbase" to support their point. Fact is, there is no playerbase that speaks with one voice. Need proof? Look at ANY thread on this forum where ppl disagree. Look at this thread.

    As for gathering data. Yes, I agree...I think certain features are in this game because Blizzard gathers data.

    And you know what happens? Missions table are again in Shadowlands. Do ppl who hate them say "Oh well, Blizzard probably has data"? No..they say "Why is this shit still there, I hate it. Blizzard might have data, but they cannot read it"

    And even right in the very first post of OP going on it is the "player expansion" and all the fanbois and Blizzard defenders were wrong (as if ppl who like the game are not players) he says that there is still "shit" like Anima Power and Covenant abilities. Because god forbid we actually acknowledge what you just say: That Blizzard actually might use data. And that data might show people do like to grind a currency within reasons. But I guess they only use the data "properly" if they do what somebody likes?

  16. #156
    Over 9000! HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    @Lucetia

    What are you on about? I still despise Cata, WoTLK, and WoD for the most part. BFA is actually better than WoD tbh. Also, people like me? Who are you to assume my position in the WoW Community? I've always had issues with each different WoW expansion. Don't assume my entire stance on the game based on a couple of comments I made against BFA (Which is a shit expansion. You can't deny this).
    Last edited by HighlordJohnstone; 2020-04-15 at 09:04 PM.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    As for gathering data. Yes, I agree...I think certain features are in this game because Blizzard gathers data.

    And you know what happens? Missions table are again in Shadowlands. Do ppl who hate them say "Oh well, Blizzard probably has data"? No..they say "Why is this shit still there, I hate it. Blizzard might have data, but they cannot read it"
    What people tend to forget, though, is that it doesn't work like that. It's not a simple equation of "what people like" = "the best thing to do", because Blizzard isn't interested in making people happy per se - they're interested in making the most profit. And very often that includes designing things to be deliberately less fun than they could be, if it means making more money off of it. Their goal is to find the sweet spot between designing for maximum profits and retaining players, i.e. find things that they can screw with juuuust enough to make people play longer and not quit the game, even if they're not enjoying it as much as they otherwise would.

    Remember: to Blizzard, how fun you think something is only matters in terms of a bottom line. Is this going to make you quit now? A month from now? Six months from now? THAT is the metric they're interested in above all else. Their design may well still end up ALSO pleasing people, because that's one common factor that directly leads to player retention (if people like it, they keep playing) - but it's not the ONLY way to get to their desired end result, and there's a gigantic grey area in between where they accept some people quitting if it means other people staying on longer.

  18. #158
    Over 9000! HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    You will probably love Shadowlands then.
    Lesser shit can still be shit. It's like comparing BFA with BFA. BFA ain't as dumb as WoD, but it's still dumb. Chances are it could be the same here.

    Why do you think I never cared for Classic, but others did? Cause I knew it wasn't going to be as good as people thought it'd be, and even now, while I still love the game, there are a lot of expansions that made stupid decisions. Like TBC, WoTLK, etc.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    What's wrong with the comfort zone? People want to be in comfort zones. Comfort zones are pleasant. And this is a game after all, you want to be in a comfort zone when playing a game.

    The facts are stark. In the past three expansions Blizzard has engaged in iterative behaviour for it's own sake.

    Warlords's garrison feature cratered the expansion.

    Legion was fun, but it 'diablo-fied' the game, with systems designed to support the artifact weapons and which obscured that system's drawbacks.

    BFA attempted to replace the missing artifact weapons with something else, and they sank a ton of developer time into attempting to correct the disaster that turned out to be.

    There has to be an end. Settle on your core systems such as loot and where people get it as well as a catch up mechanism. Keep it consistent from expansion to expansion. If you have to iterate, do so around the edges with systems that don't impact this core loop. A new class, a new race or even player housing, things where experimentation can take place without risking the creation of an unfun game we have to suffer through in the hopes the next expansion will be better.

    Iteration for the sake of it is the enemy of fun. Iteration for the sake of it wastes time that could be spent building content. 8.3 is clearly a pared back version of what they wanted to do. 8.3.5 was cut entirely. So was 6.2. Stable systems that players like and MORE CONTENT rather than continually tinkering with the game's guts is the ticket to success.
    I have to agree with everything said here.

    The constant "change for the sake of change" design philosophy has been hurting the game for years.

    Sometimes.... just sometimes... the devs actually get something right... and then fuck it up the next xpac just for the sake change. I actually thought mythic+ was better in Legion, then Blizzard futzed with the affixes and it became less fun for me.

    Systems don't need constant iteration every expansion. Sure there can be tuning when you see trouble spots but for the most part there should be a consistency to the game systems from xpac to xpac that we've been lacking since Cataclysm, and its only gotten worse as xpacs have gone on.

    I see people disagreeing with Kai, but I don't think they realize that its not the systems that makes wow a fun game... its the content. Have a solid set of systems that cover the general basics of gameplay and reward mechanism and which need minimal iteration from xpac to xpac, and focus all the resources currently wasted on changing for the sake of change, on things that already work towards making more fun stuff for us to DO. More stuff like class hall story lines, branching quests, legendary questlines, proper player housing, expanding professions, maybe add a dye system.

    If they feel the need to iterate on previous systems why not work on things that DIDN'T work like the Warfront system and/or Island Expedition system and make them better? Maybe scale Warfronts back in scope a bit and turn it into an actual zone event system rather than just an instanced version of a zone you queue up for once every few weeks. Find a way to use it in more places and give it deterministic rewards instead of the rng slot machine it currently is.

    I couldn't even finish the alliance plate set I wanted because rng refused to give me the plate chest with the blue cloth trim no matter how many plate characters I did it on when Stromgarde was up. I just gave up beating my head against the rng wall and stopped doing it altogether. It didn't respect the time I invested into it. Same with Island Expeditions which I abandoned way way back in early BfA. Those are systems that could be improved with iteration. But when you have systems that actually work and are good, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Sometimes perfectly round wheels are actually "round enough" and don't need iteration. Focus on stuff that does.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2020-04-16 at 04:55 AM.

  20. #160
    Over 9000! HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    I don't like the idea that everyone's gonna automatically assume that just because we hate the current expansion, that automatically means we'll play the next one and call this expansion "good" as a result of the next expansion's mediocrity. You're dumb if you assume this, and you're not a real Warcraft fan if you are someone that does this whole "BFA IS TRASH BUT BECAUSE SHADOWLANDS SUCKS, BFA IS AUTOMATICALLY GOOD NOW!" bullshit.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Obelisk Kai Which is why I like how big these zones are. With Bastion, you can just stop and take a breather towards the land around you, without feeling cluttered like with Legion and BFA (I like Legion, but my god, the zones were fucked). Maldraxxus and the other zones seem to have a similar feel like Bastion.

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