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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Huggykaze View Post
    Well, 2H Enh would require an agility-based 2H mace and/or 2H axe to be added into every raid tier, for the sake of a half-a-spec. If your group doesn't have this person, it's probably trash unless SV/Feral happen to have the same stat prio as 2H enh. Until now they've been using staves and polearms too so...
    Druids can't use two handed axes. So they'd either use 2h maces exclusively and share them with us and survival hunters, or expand you to be able to use other weapon types.
    One of the most difficult things for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    This doesn't warrant ALL of the work you just posted above.

    It's not worth it. All of what you said is hypothetical using numbers you don't have, calculations you don't know will work, and none of it would be worth the effort. Again: Why do it?

    I'm not going to play with hypothetical numbers that you refuse to recognize are hypothetical and won't, at all, help in our discussion. Keep calling out other posters who will, but I'm not about to go play with them any more than I play with you.

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    This. If we're going to do anything with Shaman 2h specs, give them this.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The problem is, this isn't feedback. This is your idealized version of a class which hasn't functioned the way you want in ages, and was made NOT to work that way for a good reason.

    They want FEEDBACK, as in, try what exists and tell them how it works, how it feels, what could be better about what it currently is, and where damage feels good/needs work.

    Cosmetic changes aren't feedback. "I want this spec to function entirely different" isn't feedback.
    The "hypoteticaly" numbers i used, was to answer your ppm question. It just means: Lower the frequency of wf proc if it was to do more damage with 2h... Ofc i'm not gonna pretend to balance numbers here. I know no player here (nor blizzard) would care for it. You just asked a very simple balance question which required numeric answer. So i gave it a simple and numeric answer.

    It's not worth it? Worth what? In legion they made quest chains and legendaries and legendary trait trees for every single spec for every single class. THAT was work. This is hardly anything more than a decision.

    Earthwarder? You think implementing 2h is time consuming and another spec is just fine to use their time on? Really?

    They are trying to make a game that we enjoy. Anything i say that will increase / decrease my "love" for game is feedback enough.
    This isnt about my "idealized" version of the class. This isnt "the spec functioning entirely different". This is a minor addition that will NOT effect duelwield in anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    That it takes 5 points to get to this is funny, because all 4 of those beforehand show it's not about cosmetics. If they gave it, but it sucked, you'd still have an issue with it. All of the bluster about it being a choice isn't the problem, it's that you want it to be an equally balanced choice (lest it stop being a choice at all), and given that Enhancement has had a real slew of misses on the balance side you want to add in an entire subset weapon balancing requirement?

    Also whatever that point you tried to make about crit% like, it's not a point nor does it make much sense.
    Well, those 3 point are "soothing" ANSWERS to fearfully raised questions. They're NOT concerns in any case.
    4th point is just talking about why i dont need it to be balanced and now you're saying that i will want it to be equally balanced. Seriously, i feel like you guys are not reading and just replying to arguments in your own heads.

    The bit about crit is:
    chance of getting a roll dice as 6 is %11,6
    chance of getting 2 dice rolls as 6 is %9,1 (this isnt about game mechanics this is probability of rolling a dice)

    A duel wield stormstrike (lets say main hand 20k damage, off hand 10k damage) attack has 4 outcomes.
    Main crit, off hit = 50k damage
    Main hit, off crit = 40k damage
    Both crit = 60k damage
    Both hit = 30k damage

    Now if i add their respected probabilities and make a mistake about it, you guys are going to rip me apart.
    My point is: Duel wield attacks have really low chance to "full" crit. While on the other hand templars verdict of retri, just crits or doesn't. This is what i mean about normalization. Having a range between 30k and 60k damage, instead of only those 2.

    This means basicly nothing in a 5min pve fight. But it may mean kill or die in a pvp stuation.

    This may be a niche point for you and honestly it is a niche point for me as well. But it IS a point and it DOES make sense. This is THE reason blizzard adds so many damage sources(usually passive) into the game for every spec. Warlocks don't have much, hence! OP in pvp.
    Shamans have way too many and duel wield doubles all of them.

    Thankfully a lot of passive power adjustments are being removed. Lightning shield damage is thankfully gone, "stormbringer doesnt increase SS damage" is awesome for me. If we could kiss forcefull winds away, it would be awesome too.

    We are getting much less normalized through passive effects which will make us feel more impactfull with our buttons. 2h storm strike crit(not saying wf) will fill your screen with mayhem. 2h SS normal hit will make you sad... Yes less normalized. This is 1 of the reasons of making it a "CHOISE" is awesome. I'm not saying normalization of duel wield is not saving us out of unlucky stuations. But it also steadies it very much.

    I just wanna add 1 more real important thing(for me atleast): Seeing a flurry of damage numbers on screen ranging from 5k to 200k, not knowing which hit what. This really takes the satisfaction away. Seeing 2 chaos bolts splash on the screen...
    BAAAM 200k!
    BAAAM 200k! just melts my heart... I want similar feeling for my enhancement shaman.

    I hope you guys read this time.


    Edit: If damage calculation formulas are like they are mentioned in this thread, balance will not be a problem and they will do exactly same damage over 5minutes. This is probably why they couldn't do it in the past for frost dk and SMF, and why they are doing it now. Because formulas have changed.

    If this is not the case and raidbot gods declare 2h enhancemant is %5 better than duel wield. Blizzard can just add a blanket aura on 2h to nerf it by %10 to make duel wield %5 better. These kinds of things are being done nowadays. I LOVE duelwield mechanics and looks of it just like you guys. But this addition is not as balance breaking as you think, is not as hard to add as you think AND will enrich enhancement shamans by a lot.

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    Imagine this craftable legendary weapon in shadowlands.

    A huge ass totem (like the one in vanilla cinematic that tauren has)!

    Through additional crafting traits you can make it provide wf totem effect as an aura so you dont have to drop it around every 3 seconds. (or could act as another totem buff of your choise).

    You could add an active ability to smack the totem into the ground vertically to deal damage around you! Or slow or heal or stun or debuff...

    Maaaaybe it could give armor for resto and elemental. So they could walk around with a 2h too? Smack the ground for an instant aoe heal or small haste buff for the party? junior bloodlust!
    Last edited by Oturanboa; 2020-04-18 at 12:37 PM.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by baseballfan View Post
    lol after classic 2 handed was dead. with dual wield. it was not even good in classic it was just what they could use. and no "we all" don't want it back at all... just cause you see it in classic doesnt mean it should be there in live.
    2H was alive and well in PVP during BC.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  4. #84
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    5) Why i want it?
    Firstly: Cosmetic, flavour, choise of rpg. To be honest most people would be satisfied if it came as transmog option.
    Would your demand be satisfied by addition of a glyph that turns your currently equipped weapon into a twohander?

    Because you sound like you just want your toon to swing a two-handed weapon. It's kinda obvious that it's a lot of work to make two-handers to work with enhancement shaman, and reasoning behind it is "just for the sake of it"
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by gd8 View Post
    lava lash is an offhand attack if i recall correctly so idk how it'd work with a 2h
    Everyone acts like its so hard to remove an OH item restriction from a spell. I'm against 2H enhancement but seriously you can remove the restriction

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    It's not worth it? Worth what? In legion they made quest chains and legendaries and legendary trait trees for every single spec for every single class. THAT was work. This is hardly anything more than a decision.

    Earthwarder? You think implementing 2h is time consuming and another spec is just fine to use their time on? Really?
    Justifying changes because you want to make a new spec > justifying changes just because.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Would your demand be satisfied by addition of a glyph that turns your currently equipped weapon into a twohander?

    Because you sound like you just want your toon to swing a two-handed weapon. It's kinda obvious that it's a lot of work to make two-handers to work with enhancement shaman, and reasoning behind it is "just for the sake of it"
    Like i said, many people would be satisfied yes. I would also be partially satisfied as well. However i added other "justifications" for wanting it. Having a tactile feedback on damage sources by nearly halving them and having a less normalized damage output is 2 of them ([I]if you fully read my posts, i deeply explained my reasoning and it's not about 1shoting people with 2h wf procs[/I)).

    Why is this any different for frost DK? They wanted 2h option for years. They wanted it just for the sake of it. They are getting it just for the sake of it. Why do we need to provide more justification for wanting it? Why must we be painted as stupid/inconsiderate people for wanting, just for the sake of it?

    A lot of people proposed a lot of problems that may arise. All of them considered when read everything everyone wrote in this thread. What it boils down to is: "It would require slightly more work than frost dk". Which i can't go beyond speculation since i don't exactly how they are doing these additions and guessing from what i read off of other people and datamining wowhead does. But i must say it looks quite easy work of an afternoon for experienced wow developers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Justifying changes because you want to make a new spec > justifying changes just because.
    Don't you think you're being a little hypocritical here? Can we better word it like?:

    Justifying changes just because you want to make a new spec = justifying changes just because you want new weapon choise.

    I'm not against tank spec. Go for it. More fun for shaman. But you guys keep comparing work required between frost 2h and enhancement 2h... While comparing work of 2h option and whole another spec doesn't cross your mind? You don't compare work when YOU want something? But it's too much work for other people's desires?

  8. #88
    I would be ok with a glyph yes. I don't really care if lava lash damages are coming from my left hand, my wrong foot or the bottom of the univers. I just need to figure out (or Wordup^^) if it's a filler, a builder or a spender etc, it's CD... when I'm supposed to press the button basically... the fantasy behind the name of spells never really made sense anyway apart from the obvious "heal" for healers, "fireball" for mage and a few other stuff like that.

    about "to much work just for the sake of it", it reminds me titan's grip. I always wondered why! just for the sake of it?? it never made sense to me. was it a lot of work? did the changes from old scholl disc priest to current disc cost us a full xpac worth of raids??

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    Here's why ion said enhancement is "trickier"

    In legion, every ability in game (except for casters) were tied to weapon damage to scale better. So specs like windwalker monk would still need a good weapon even tho they don't actively use it with their abilities.

    These formulas are not shown to public but wowhead thinks, they look something like this

    (Attack Power + Weapon DPS * 6) * AP Coefficient * Damage Multiplier

    Which is a fairly easy one to work around with^^ (you can search article on wowhead "formula for calculating ability damage")

    Now since we are moving away from spec design
    They HAVE TO make brewmaster abilities (2h) work for windwalker (duelwield) and visa versa. Since they are making 2 formulas for most of the class abilities, they probably thought like, "well, we might as well scale these remaining ones too, to give players a choise". Which is seriously awesome of them!

    But since enhancement only has 1 kind of melee dps spec, abilities were never made to scale around for 2h during legion. This is the only reason i can think of why they are not giving us 2h.

    All damage formulas for death knights, monks and hunters (most probably warriors too) are being updated to work with both 2h weapons and duel wielding for this business. They are excluding enhancement because its too much of a hassle.

    It's now or never guys. We have to make them know we want it bad. This is the only expansion they decided to listen to players.
    it will not happen.

    as MUCH (this is a huge MUCH) as i would like it (2hand mace days felt soooo great, and not because of wind fury or numbers), blizz will not do it.

    why i am sure?

    look, all the class changes you see are based on easy eye catching. technology wise all what they do is easy and.... cheap. doing enhance 2h right is NOT easy. and NOT cheap. and when i hear blizz saying in the first week of alpha „stuff like 2h enhance will not happen“ then i know for sure, that they are sooooo far away from doin it.

    in the end, blizz have a customer base over 36 specs. this means they please for that investment a 36th of their playerbase. very low gain for that investment. result: ignored.

    would it be cool like shit ? yes.
    will they go for it ? no.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by S2H View Post
    Everyone acts like its so hard to remove an OH item restriction from a spell. I'm against 2H enhancement but seriously you can remove the restriction
    this is not that easy. blizzard formed in Legion well rounded combat styles. every spell has a specific animation. to get a good looking 2h enhancer, you not only have to „allow 2h transmog“. you have to make sure, when i.e. the 2hand glyph is active, all the enhance spells use 2h version of the animation. the code here is not the problem. these are a few ifs and thens. but a 2h animation for lets say Stormstrike not yet exists. so deisgmers have to design it. after that you have to look at all spells and if, with given standard rotation, the whole combat feeling looks good and works, when rotation is running and all animations come in sequence. this is what they did with all melees in Legion. you have to do that with new enhancer 2h too, even when its „just“ tmog.

    this costs time and effort aka money and is not just a DB switch. for a 36th of your playerbase i am not sure blizz will invest that.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-04-18 at 03:05 PM.

  10. #90
    Well they ARE doing it for 1/36, which is frost. Which doesn't have ANY more justification than we do. (which is awesome). They ARE considering for SMF too. Damage formulas has been iterated for a hundred times and i bet they made them very easy for themselves to tweak around.

    Did you just see developer interview notes on here? They will adjust damage numbers of EVERY torghast enemy for EACH spec. Not for every role, for EACH spec. If adding 2h option for a spec is too much work, making 36 versions of EVERY torghast enemy would be literally impossible. I think this kind of balancing we ask, is something they eat for breakfast after 15 years of balancing and iterating their system.

    About animations, i believe attack animations are tied to races and not abilities. Like each race has 3-5 1h attack and every ability use 1 of them and get some sparkle added onto them ie: lightning.

    I don't think this is something we should feel bad for wanting it. They DID it for frost. If it really turns out harder than balancing frost, they could use this time to take a better look at enhancement. Maybe they figure out something they couldn't before and even duel wield becomes better for it. We can't be bad people for wanting something! Come on.

    This is alpha, with removal of BFA systems AND level squish. EVERY ability is already getting looked at and being tweaked. Lightning shield damage is being removed, they will add that damage % into something else. They COULD do these things with our desire for 2h in mind. Which is NOT gonna double their work. They will simply add another coefficiency for 2h, along with DW. Weapons are (probably) just attack power sticks as far as damage system is concerned.

    They need to know just how much we want it. And how much of us think 2h enhancement is an awesome looking addition. Which some of you don't agree and that's ok.

    But there really isn't a balance/technology/workload problem to implement it. You CAN want it. I think you guys are just afraid to be dissappointed again

  11. #91
    I'd much prefer the transmog route so they don't have to do any, or much, additional work on class mechanics.

    I don't know what the guts of Blizzard's game looks like, but I can infer based on the way they handle artifact transmog, certain buffs that replace your weapon with a 2hander, and animation changes caused by transmog (2h sword -> polearm, 1h sword -> fist weapon), that they could make it work without having it look broken.

    Concerns and solutions:

    Auto attack animation speed - Only play animation on main hand swings.

    Auto attack combat text not matching swing animations - Group MH and OH damage numbers in floating combat text or ignore it since abilities often clip auto attack animations anyway.

    Missing offhand for certain abilities - Move particle effects to main hand, designate substitute animation.

    Dual weapon ability animations - same as above, though I think attacks like Stormstrike could still look cool with an empty offhand.

    That's all I could think of. 1handers for Fury wouldn't really require any changes other than removing the weapon-type restriction on transmog.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    Well they ARE doing it for 1/36, which is frost. Which doesn't have ANY more justification than we do. (which is awesome). They ARE considering for SMF too. Damage formulas has been iterated for a hundred times and i bet they made them very easy for themselves to tweak around.

    Did you just see developer interview notes on here? They will adjust damage numbers of EVERY torghast enemy for EACH spec. Not for every role, for EACH spec. If adding 2h option for a spec is too much work, making 36 versions of EVERY torghast enemy would be literally impossible. I think this kind of balancing we ask, is something they eat for breakfast after 15 years of balancing and iterating their system.

    About animations, i believe attack animations are tied to races and not abilities. Like each race has 3-5 1h attack and every ability use 1 of them and get some sparkle added onto them ie: lightning.

    I don't think this is something we should feel bad for wanting it. They DID it for frost. If it really turns out harder than balancing frost, they could use this time to take a better look at enhancement. Maybe they figure out something they couldn't before and even duel wield becomes better for it. We can't be bad people for wanting something! Come on.

    This is alpha, with removal of BFA systems AND level squish. EVERY ability is already getting looked at and being tweaked. Lightning shield damage is being removed, they will add that damage % into something else. They COULD do these things with our desire for 2h in mind. Which is NOT gonna double their work. They will simply add another coefficiency for 2h, along with DW. Weapons are (probably) just attack power sticks as far as damage system is concerned.

    They need to know just how much we want it. And how much of us think 2h enhancement is an awesome looking addition. Which some of you don't agree and that's ok.

    But there really isn't a balance/technology/workload problem to implement it. You CAN want it. I think you guys are just afraid to be dissappointed again
    They are doing it for frost because as recently as mid WoD, it was a supported spec/playstyle. IIRC, 2H frost was the preferred spec through early highmaul, before 1h overtook it. What that means is they have animations, itemization, and a framework for balance, none of which exist for enh, which hasn't been a real spec really ever, but you could sort of play it in vanilla/early BC. I think people are also underestimating the balance issues that the switch between 1h/2h will cause, for both specs. The two specs are pretty similar really, with a lot of the same issues. How do you balance weapon inbues/runeforging? Proc based systems such as killing machine/stormbringer? resource generating talents based on hitting the target? If your comeback is, "well, they're doing that for frost!" My answer is, they haven't done it for frost - on the alpha 2H frost is non competitive atm, and even in previous iterations, there was always one version that was clearly better. Some people may say that they would be happy doing less damage if they could go 2H, but for every person who says that, there is probably 10 who would be upset if their preferred playstyle isn't optimal.

    Torghast balancing is way different from live DPS balancing. They just have to adjust mob health/damage to make sure content is clearable. They don't have to design whole class mechanics around it.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by MBTL90 View Post
    They are doing it for frost because as recently as mid WoD, it was a supported spec/playstyle. IIRC, 2H frost was the preferred spec through early highmaul, before 1h overtook it. What that means is they have animations, itemization, and a framework for balance, none of which exist for enh, which hasn't been a real spec really ever, but you could sort of play it in vanilla/early BC. I think people are also underestimating the balance issues that the switch between 1h/2h will cause, for both specs. The two specs are pretty similar really, with a lot of the same issues. How do you balance weapon inbues/runeforging? Proc based systems such as killing machine/stormbringer? resource generating talents based on hitting the target? If your comeback is, "well, they're doing that for frost!" My answer is, they haven't done it for frost - on the alpha 2H frost is non competitive atm, and even in previous iterations, there was always one version that was clearly better. Some people may say that they would be happy doing less damage if they could go 2H, but for every person who says that, there is probably 10 who would be upset if their preferred playstyle isn't optimal.

    Torghast balancing is way different from live DPS balancing. They just have to adjust mob health/damage to make sure content is clearable. They don't have to design whole class mechanics around it.
    Oh yea, frost deserve it cus they had it more recently?
    They are not doing it for frost? 2h frost is not competative atm? Why are you just lying man? Why are you doing this to yourself.

    You know what, don't read.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJGHjqfwGck

    watch this. 2h frost and duel frost is IDENTICAL on alpha. Even with auto attacks and every ability. Everything deal EXACT same damage.

    I'm amazed at people on this thread opposing passionately something they won't even feel. Is it simply you dont want anyone to enjoy anything? 2h enhancement, just like 2h frost, will hit and play exactly like duel wield. It WON'T touch your playstyle.

  14. #94
    The Patient Motso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post

    It's now or never guys. We have to make them know we want it bad. This is the only expansion they decided to listen to players.
    This will never, ever happen. The number of Shaman players who actually want a 2h Enh spec is pathetically small, they just bitch a lot here. It is a stupid idea and Blizzard know this.

  15. #95
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    People are still fixated on that vanilla spec that lasted 5 min before it got obliterated? You think you would again 1 shot peeps with windfury procs? Ye, good luck with convincing Blizz. I mean, why is no one asking about bringing back sham tanks? Rockbiter did generate high threat in the past, after all.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  16. #96
    2h shaman hasn't been a thing far longer than it was. It's never coming back, get over it

  17. #97
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    Raid itemization is a bigger issue than Lava Lash. Just count how many 2H axe/mace specs there are. That said, dual wield doesn’t feel good and I would kill for 2H back.

  18. #98
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    I play an Enh/resto shaman, can't say I would use 2H if it was an option. DW feels so much more aggressive/befitting of them IMO. Like using Doomhammer + the purely-elemental offhand in Legion, that was amazing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I mean, why is no one asking about bringing back sham tanks? Rockbiter did generate high threat in the past, after all.
    I'd be more excited for this than 2H, by a mile.
    My greatest fear is that one day, my MMO-Champion ignore list will run out of space.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    watch this. 2h frost and duel frost is IDENTICAL on alpha. Even with auto attacks and every ability. Everything deal EXACT same damage.

    I'm amazed at people on this thread opposing passionately something they won't even feel. Is it simply you dont want anyone to enjoy anything? 2h enhancement, just like 2h frost, will hit and play exactly like duel wield. It WON'T touch your playstyle.
    This guy is wrong btw.
    Killing machine (frosts main mechanic) is tied to swing timer as is Runic Attenuation (resource gen) both skills proc significantly more with DW. That's not even going into losing the razorice runeforge (which in turn makes mastery more valuable for DW) which the guy in your video (who clearly doesn't play dk, like at all) basically immediately accidentally discovers the difference.
    If they want 2h to scale at all it will have to be balanced separately from DW.

    I'm not saying don't advocate for 2h enhance if that's you hill to die on. I'm saying 2h Frost is not going to help your argument.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    I don't understand why you guys are against it.
    Well personally it has to do with what I've seen happen in the past. Once people get 2H enhancement back, they won't be happy unless its playstyle is right. Then they'll want more weapons, and then they'll want it to be balanced, or in some cases, better than dual wield. Additionally, the time they'll have to take properly tuning 2Hand enhancement is time they could be spending making the current spec more engaging and balanced. It's a question of importance. Bring something back that hasn't seen the light of day for 10 years or more, OR polish what we already have to a gorgeous shine? I'd prefer the latter, and they have a long way to go before current enhancement is in a proper state. This clamoring for 2hand to return needs to be put on a back burner until we're in a better place.

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