No 2h for enhancement? It's now or never

[EasyE]

as an enhance shaman , No.

[sephro22]

lava lash is an offhand attack if i recall correctly so idk how it'd work with a 2h

Turn the weapon around?

[FlemmMinis]

When was 2h shaman viable? Wasn't it always an extremely niche playstyle?

[Oturanboa]

Note: USED TO. All of these things were removed/reworked for being brokenly overpowered. Some were removed outright. Some were nerfed so hard they don't exist anymore. 2h enhancement, funny enough is one of the latter, NOT the former, since if you REALLY want you can still put on a 2h and play Enhancement if you really feel like it - It's just NOT GOOD.

And what is a nice PPM that makes 2h exactly as good as dual wield?

You do realize the reason they removed SMF is FOR THAT REASON, that they couldn't balance it properly, right? Not to mention it WON'T be 'exactly as good', it will always be slightly better or slightly worse and one side or the other will complain that their favorite isn't better at this moment.

It most certainly won't be a one shot class, and it will have to be balanced around the fact that, rarely, it does a MASSIVE 3-pronged bonus attack power hit AND all of it's abilities will be hitting much harder than Dual Wield - Or nerfed so hard that they don't hit hard enough to warrant the work. Meaning: Outside that once-in-a-lifetime proc, you do no damage. And since all the damage is tied to Windfury, any nerf to it would also affect dual wield, effectively killing dual wield enhancement in the process.

And since nerfs are inevitable since it will be too strong in PvP - Because again, Blizzard ISN'T GOOD AT BALANCE and has adamantly refused to separate PvP and PvE functionality of skills - since one shot mechanics were removed FOREVER ago, the inevitability of adding 2h enhancement is: Enhancement IN GENERAL is nerfed to oblivion and unviable.

Point to as many non-blizz employees as you want with bad ideas - They won't work the way you're suggesting.

Stop asking. It's a bad idea and you should feel bad.

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Windfury damage is ENTIRELY based on your Auto-damage right now, with bonus attack power.

Either they change how Windfury works to function differently based on what type of weapon you're using (Note: THIS is why it's a bad idea, because your 2h won't hit nearly as hard, or you'll have a much lower proc chance, making your damage OUTSIDE Windfury shit.) or they don't do this.

The latter is the better option, yes. And yes, if it's that much effort, I think them balancing for 2h frost and dual wield frost is just as bad of an idea, considering there will always be a 'better' option and players won't play both.

But lucky for them, they balanced 2h frost around not having windfury a long time ago, so they don't NEED to worry about that. They just need to worry about the actual abilities.

But do feel free to keep ignoring that it's ENTIRELY Windfury that's going to make or break Enhancement when it comes to dual wield and 2h. Frost doesn't have Windfury. It is much easier to balance when you don't have to randomly account for 2 extra hits at bonus attack power. (And has STILL NEVER, EVER BEEN BALANCED EQUALLY WITH DUAL WIELD. EVER.)

Or are you suggesting they remove Windfury? Because if so, fuck you. Stop ruining Enhancement.

Most of what you said is answered in this thread, but ill answer you as well since you quoted me.

1) And what is a nice PPM that makes 2h exactly as good as dual wield?
Lets say current 1h wf ppm is x... (x/3.6(2h wep speed))x 2.6(1h wep speed) good enough?
This is only if they choose to increase 2h wf damage, which they probably wouldn't

2) You're delusional about how much damage wf deals...
wf is not "weapon damage + some ap" since wotlk. It's a fixed amount scaled with all of your gear including weps.
I have a 475ilvl enhancement shaman with 475 ilvl weapon. My AVERAGE wf hits are 6k WITH FORCEFUL WINDS TALENT. That's about %5-7 of my total damage done.
It's not really any different than flametongue. It's an unnoticeable passive damage proc. Purification protocol is much stronger than windfury. Nobody even notice it. People pick it because raidbots tell them to.
2h wf will probably won't change damage wf deals by any amount... For all i care set the ppm and damage just as the same as 1h wf. So you can sleep well at night.

Honestly, NOOOBODY cares about wf damage. Even lightning shield procs deal more burst damage since they are cramped in a smaller window. We're not relics of the past. You are. For being scared of wf damage breaking the class again.
If they removed WF today, you wouldn't notice it without looking at your logs.

3) You mentioned SMF, they are bringing it back.
If they were not on a better position about balancing things like 2h frost / monk / SMF, they wouldnt attemp it.
And honestly even if they can't balance it, it's still amazing to have that choise. People choose better one? They should, all we ask is for "having skills scale with 2h like they do with duel wield". It's a semi simple addition to game. They will just add a 2h notation with a different coefficiency.

4) One will be better than the other?
Yes, most probably. Isnt elemental better than enhancement in any content of this game? So with that logic, do we outright remove enhancement since it's breaking balance of elemental?
Isn't druid better than shaman in any roles in any content? Lets just scrap shaman altogether.
Shaman as a class has never been "OP" in any expansion EVER. People still play it because it's fun. Everyone isn't in this for parcing %99 on wowlogs.com

5) Why i want it?
Firstly: Cosmetic, flavour, choise of rpg. To be honest most people would be satisfied if it came as transmog option.

Secondly: Fast weapons normalize every kind of damage. With %20 crit chance, having 2 weapons autoattack crit at same time is much lower than %20. This is normalization. Enhancement is THE class with HIGHEST number of damage sources in BFA, BY FAR! Duel wield spreads these even thinner.

So if 2h turns out to be as good as %80-90 of duel wield in pve, it could still be better for pvp (not for wf! Screw wf! Remove it from game for all i care).


----------------------------------------------------------

Edit / addition:

If what kalarm dude (someone in this thread) says is true; Weapons are basicly attack power sticks you hold in your hand. They contribute some attack power (deduced by damage of your both weapons) to your total attack power (gained by agility/str). Which then this total attack power is distributed to you abilities by their own chosen coefficiency. Like: "wf hits 2 attacks of %x of your attack power".

Those days wow's damage system worked like DnD is looooooong gone.

They can now make 2h shaman hit EXACTLY as much as dw. It's just a problem of making duel wield and 2h, contribute same amount of attack power in same power of ilvl.

Even if it's not the case, fine. I'm down with 2h being worse than dw. But in any case, it will NOT effect duel wielding.
Btw, I love duel wielding if 2h comes, i will keep raiding with duel wield.

But just right now go check that 2h ardenweald mace, open a 3d model on your own race and tell me you don't wanna smash face with that.

[kosajk]

Most of what you said is answered in this thread, but ill answer you as well since you quoted me.

1) And what is a nice PPM that makes 2h exactly as good as dual wield?
Lets say current 1h wf ppm is x... (x/3.6(2h wep speed))x 2.6(1h wep speed) good enough?
This is only if they choose to increase 2h wf damage, which they probably wouldn't

2) You're delusional about how much damage wf deals...
wf is not "weapon damage + some ap" since wotlk. It's a fixed amount scaled with all of your gear including weps.
I have a 475ilvl enhancement shaman with 475 ilvl weapon. My AVERAGE wf hits are 6k WITH FORCEFUL WINDS TALENT. That's about %5-7 of my total damage done.
It's not really any different than flametongue. It's an unnoticeable passive damage proc. Purification protocol is much stronger than windfury. Nobody even notice it. People pick it because raidbots tell them to.
2h wf will probably won't change damage wf deals by any amount... For all i care set the ppm and damage just as the same as 1h wf. So you can sleep well at night.

Honestly, NOOOBODY cares about wf damage. Even lightning shield procs deal more burst damage since they are cramped in a smaller window. We're not relics of the past. You are. For being scared of wf damage breaking the class again.
If they removed WF today, you wouldn't notice it without looking at your logs.

3) You mentioned SMF, they are bringing it back.
If they were not on a better position about balancing things like 2h frost / monk / SMF, they wouldnt attemp it.
And honestly even if they can't balance it, it's still amazing to have that choise. People choose better one? They should, all we ask is for "having skills scale with 2h like they do with duel wield". It's a semi simple addition to game. They will just add a 2h notation with a different coefficiency.

4) One will be better than the other?
Yes, most probably. Isnt elemental better than enhancement in any content of this game? So with that logic, do we outright remove enhancement since it's breaking balance of elemental?
Isn't druid better than shaman in any roles in any content? Lets just scrap shaman altogether.
Shaman as a class has never been "OP" in any expansion EVER. People still play it because it's fun. Everyone isn't in this for parcing %99 on wowlogs.com

5) Why i want it?
Firstly: Cosmetic, flavour, choise of rpg. To be honest most people would be satisfied if it came as transmog option.

Secondly: Fast weapons normalize every kind of damage. With %20 crit chance, having 2 weapons autoattack crit at same time is much lower than %20. This is normalization. Enhancement is THE class with HIGHEST number of damage sources in BFA, BY FAR! Duel wield spreads these even thinner.

So if 2h turns out to be as good as %80-90 of duel wield in pve, it could still be better for pvp (not for wf! Screw wf! Remove it from game for all i care).

first off all enh is not worst in everything at this point in time, can arguably say its top dmg for m+ atm with proper setup

https://www.simulationcraft.org/repo...geonSlice.html

Second we all know they will not do 2h avalible if its not done at this point of time, so whats point in losing energy in pointless argues?
Its doable? yea, no one says its not.
It require a loot of time put in design and balancing? yea, and here we hit the wall.
I have some idea or 2 how to implement it but there are some problems it will crate certainly so in the end whats the point? It would be nice to have some extra option for easy weaponizing but everyone are managing without it.

if You want it for cosmetic/rpg reasons no one stop you using some 2h in orgri or wherever on mailbox, problem is in raids/dungeons but if you have time in fight to pay attention on things like that its time to get some rather long brake from the game :P

[Gatto]

As a main hunter i feel the same.

Not being able to use 2h axes/swords or 1h axes/swords/daggers/fist weapons is meh.

In terms of choices ( 2x enchants vs 1 enchants / more dps vs more burst / etc ) and in terms of aesthetic ( you can't transmog 2x 1h to match a 2h, nor you can't add any of those skins, since you won't be dropping them in raid/dungeon ).

[Oturanboa]

first off all enh is not worst in everything at this point in time, can arguably say its top dmg for m+ atm with proper setup

https://www.simulationcraft.org/repo...geonSlice.html

Second we all know they will not do 2h avalible if its not done at this point of time, so whats point in losing energy in pointless argues?
Its doable? yea, no one says its not.
It require a loot of time put in design and balancing? yea, and here we hit the wall.
I have some idea or 2 how to implement it but there are some problems it will crate certainly so in the end whats the point? It would be nice to have some extra option for easy weaponizing but everyone are managing without it.

if You want it for cosmetic/rpg reasons no one stop you using some 2h in orgri or wherever on mailbox, problem is in raids/dungeons but if you have time in fight to pay attention on things like that its time to get some rather long brake from the game :P

I didn't say enhancement is worst in everything. I said it's not OP in any content. You don't see people rushing to shaman forums asking for nerf like they do with Demon hunters. You don't see people write "need enhancement" in their m+ description. What i meant with that statement is everyone doesn't mind playing the underdog. Which is what enhancement has been in most expensions.

Is it doable? Yes! And i mean, i really really doubt it's "hard to do" by any stretch. This is alpha right now. Blizzard is actually asking feedback for classes. They took the time to make it work for frost while it wasn't nessecery any more than 2h enhancement. Since now we are getting so many abilities back AND getting old ones re-adjusted for new expension (which will already be done no matter what). All i'm asking is doing that business with 2h in mind.

Honestly, only argument here is done by people about "why we shouldn't want it". It sounds petty to me to say the least. I understand why they're so passionate about their opinion but i think they are misinformed about how things are done and how they can be done. They are afraid we will lose what we already have (which has usually been what it's about enhancement). I just don't think it will be the case. I also don't think this "operation" still steal valuable time from the development team. They are doing this kind of business much much better than they used to do.

However, you maybe right about me taking a long break from the game But this has been a 14 years old festering wound you know and i'm not alone in this crazy train

[Grimbold21]

I find it more surprising that people want this more than a tanking spec.

I'd very much prefer to have a Earthwarder spec

[wordup]

5) Why i want it?
Firstly: Cosmetic, flavour, choise of rpg. To be honest most people would be satisfied if it came as transmog option.

Secondly: Fast weapons normalize every kind of damage. With %20 crit chance, having 2 weapons autoattack crit at same time is much lower than %20. This is normalization. Enhancement is THE class with HIGHEST number of damage sources in BFA, BY FAR! Duel wield spreads these even thinner.

That it takes 5 points to get to this is funny, because all 4 of those beforehand show it's not about cosmetics. If they gave it, but it sucked, you'd still have an issue with it. All of the bluster about it being a choice isn't the problem, it's that you want it to be an equally balanced choice (lest it stop being a choice at all), and given that Enhancement has had a real slew of misses on the balance side you want to add in an entire subset weapon balancing requirement?

Also whatever that point you tried to make about crit% like, it's not a point nor does it make much sense.

[Beuargh]

I'm a "2h for enha" supporter. I've seen the topic coming back for every xpac and between, ever since they fucked with it at the end of vanilla. but reading all the people against it and their arguments just makes me laugh...... yeah it's "too much work" like it's never been done before lol .... probably will cost a raid. we shouldn't ask too much from blizzard at this point, that's for sure......

too much people played cloth classes in vanilla and kept the trauma of being destroyed by the broken enha of that time, after a purge and a SS proc'ing WF triple crit. they've screaming "NEveR AgaIN DuuUh" for a decade and a half.... we all know blizzard was never able to make a melee class work with 2h weapons right? it's too much work....

[Cazmosis]

Lets focus on getting rid of race/class restrictions here

Would be nice to rock a Shaman that didnt suffer from crippling scoliosis, run like it has an impacted colon, and can properly display a boot model

[asamu]

Out of curiosity, can someone explain to me why 2h enhancement has been such a difficulty for Blizz? It's something I don't understand.

Probably that they effectively removed it in TBC when they added dual wield and lavalash. + oldschool windfury RNG made 2h shaman a bit too swingy in PvP.
None of those things are really an issue now though, so it's probably more that it hasn't been a thing for so long that they don't consider 2h part of the class.

It's also an agility spec, and the only 2h weapons that have agility on them these days are polearms and staves for monks/druids. Occasionally there's a mace. If they make 2h enh work, they'd need to make all 2h weapons except swords work with agility.

[Rhinox]

Can this please die? 2H enhance was never viable and only saw fringe play among top Shamans in Vanilla/TBC. It was never really a thing, and it doesn't need to be a thing now.

Classes that use 2Hers: DK/Paladin/Warrior
Classes that use 1Hers (axes/maces): DK (frost - but maybe not really in SL)/Monk/DH/Rogue(mace only).

Even from a gameplay perspective, shifting Shamans into 2Hers will skew the distribution of weapons. It also doesn't gel thematically with what the spec is now. The Doomhammer, the most famous Shaman weapon is a one-hander.

Please let this stupid request die, it's as dumb as wanting High-Elves.

[Unholyground]

Its been 13 years and its not coming back. Get over it.

People swore Zandalari Paladin would not happen , but we bitched and got it. Just need enough Shaman to bitch.

[cparle87]

Well, 2H Enh would require an agility-based 2H mace and/or 2H axe to be added into every raid tier, for the sake of a half-a-spec. If your group doesn't have this person, it's probably trash unless SV/Feral happen to have the same stat prio as 2H enh. Until now they've been using staves and polearms too so...

Druids can't use two handed axes. So they'd either use 2h maces exclusively and share them with us and survival hunters, or expand you to be able to use other weapon types.

[Oturanboa]

This doesn't warrant ALL of the work you just posted above.

It's not worth it. All of what you said is hypothetical using numbers you don't have, calculations you don't know will work, and none of it would be worth the effort. Again: Why do it?

I'm not going to play with hypothetical numbers that you refuse to recognize are hypothetical and won't, at all, help in our discussion. Keep calling out other posters who will, but I'm not about to go play with them any more than I play with you.

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This. If we're going to do anything with Shaman 2h specs, give them this.

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The problem is, this isn't feedback. This is your idealized version of a class which hasn't functioned the way you want in ages, and was made NOT to work that way for a good reason.

They want FEEDBACK, as in, try what exists and tell them how it works, how it feels, what could be better about what it currently is, and where damage feels good/needs work.

Cosmetic changes aren't feedback. "I want this spec to function entirely different" isn't feedback.

The "hypoteticaly" numbers i used, was to answer your ppm question. It just means: Lower the frequency of wf proc if it was to do more damage with 2h... Ofc i'm not gonna pretend to balance numbers here. I know no player here (nor blizzard) would care for it. You just asked a very simple balance question which required numeric answer. So i gave it a simple and numeric answer.

It's not worth it? Worth what? In legion they made quest chains and legendaries and legendary trait trees for every single spec for every single class. THAT was work. This is hardly anything more than a decision.

Earthwarder? You think implementing 2h is time consuming and another spec is just fine to use their time on? Really?

They are trying to make a game that we enjoy. Anything i say that will increase / decrease my "love" for game is feedback enough.
This isnt about my "idealized" version of the class. This isnt "the spec functioning entirely different". This is a minor addition that will NOT effect duelwield in anyway.

That it takes 5 points to get to this is funny, because all 4 of those beforehand show it's not about cosmetics. If they gave it, but it sucked, you'd still have an issue with it. All of the bluster about it being a choice isn't the problem, it's that you want it to be an equally balanced choice (lest it stop being a choice at all), and given that Enhancement has had a real slew of misses on the balance side you want to add in an entire subset weapon balancing requirement?

Also whatever that point you tried to make about crit% like, it's not a point nor does it make much sense.

Well, those 3 point are "soothing" ANSWERS to fearfully raised questions. They're NOT concerns in any case.
4th point is just talking about why i dont need it to be balanced and now you're saying that i will want it to be equally balanced. Seriously, i feel like you guys are not reading and just replying to arguments in your own heads.

The bit about crit is:
chance of getting a roll dice as 6 is %11,6
chance of getting 2 dice rolls as 6 is %9,1 (this isnt about game mechanics this is probability of rolling a dice)

A duel wield stormstrike (lets say main hand 20k damage, off hand 10k damage) attack has 4 outcomes.
Main crit, off hit = 50k damage
Main hit, off crit = 40k damage
Both crit = 60k damage
Both hit = 30k damage

Now if i add their respected probabilities and make a mistake about it, you guys are going to rip me apart.
My point is: Duel wield attacks have really low chance to "full" crit. While on the other hand templars verdict of retri, just crits or doesn't. This is what i mean about normalization. Having a range between 30k and 60k damage, instead of only those 2.

This means basicly nothing in a 5min pve fight. But it may mean kill or die in a pvp stuation.

This may be a niche point for you and honestly it is a niche point for me as well. But it IS a point and it DOES make sense. This is THE reason blizzard adds so many damage sources(usually passive) into the game for every spec. Warlocks don't have much, hence! OP in pvp.
Shamans have way too many and duel wield doubles all of them.

Thankfully a lot of passive power adjustments are being removed. Lightning shield damage is thankfully gone, "stormbringer doesnt increase SS damage" is awesome for me. If we could kiss forcefull winds away, it would be awesome too.

We are getting much less normalized through passive effects which will make us feel more impactfull with our buttons. 2h storm strike crit(not saying wf) will fill your screen with mayhem. 2h SS normal hit will make you sad... Yes less normalized. This is 1 of the reasons of making it a "CHOISE" is awesome. I'm not saying normalization of duel wield is not saving us out of unlucky stuations. But it also steadies it very much.

I just wanna add 1 more real important thing(for me atleast): Seeing a flurry of damage numbers on screen ranging from 5k to 200k, not knowing which hit what. This really takes the satisfaction away. Seeing 2 chaos bolts splash on the screen...
BAAAM 200k!
BAAAM 200k! just melts my heart... I want similar feeling for my enhancement shaman.

I hope you guys read this time.


Edit: If damage calculation formulas are like they are mentioned in this thread, balance will not be a problem and they will do exactly same damage over 5minutes. This is probably why they couldn't do it in the past for frost dk and SMF, and why they are doing it now. Because formulas have changed.

If this is not the case and raidbot gods declare 2h enhancemant is %5 better than duel wield. Blizzard can just add a blanket aura on 2h to nerf it by %10 to make duel wield %5 better. These kinds of things are being done nowadays. I LOVE duelwield mechanics and looks of it just like you guys. But this addition is not as balance breaking as you think, is not as hard to add as you think AND will enrich enhancement shamans by a lot.

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Imagine this craftable legendary weapon in shadowlands.

A huge ass totem (like the one in vanilla cinematic that tauren has)!

Through additional crafting traits you can make it provide wf totem effect as an aura so you dont have to drop it around every 3 seconds. (or could act as another totem buff of your choise).

You could add an active ability to smack the totem into the ground vertically to deal damage around you! Or slow or heal or stun or debuff...

Maaaaybe it could give armor for resto and elemental. So they could walk around with a 2h too? Smack the ground for an instant aoe heal or small haste buff for the party? junior bloodlust!

[Ragedaug]

lol after classic 2 handed was dead. with dual wield. it was not even good in classic it was just what they could use. and no "we all" don't want it back at all... just cause you see it in classic doesnt mean it should be there in live.

2H was alive and well in PVP during BC.

[Charge me Doctor]

5) Why i want it?
Firstly: Cosmetic, flavour, choise of rpg. To be honest most people would be satisfied if it came as transmog option.

Would your demand be satisfied by addition of a glyph that turns your currently equipped weapon into a twohander?

Because you sound like you just want your toon to swing a two-handed weapon. It's kinda obvious that it's a lot of work to make two-handers to work with enhancement shaman, and reasoning behind it is "just for the sake of it"

[S2H]

lava lash is an offhand attack if i recall correctly so idk how it'd work with a 2h

Everyone acts like its so hard to remove an OH item restriction from a spell. I'm against 2H enhancement but seriously you can remove the restriction

[Charge me Doctor]

It's not worth it? Worth what? In legion they made quest chains and legendaries and legendary trait trees for every single spec for every single class. THAT was work. This is hardly anything more than a decision.

Earthwarder? You think implementing 2h is time consuming and another spec is just fine to use their time on? Really?

Justifying changes because you want to make a new spec > justifying changes just because.