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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Would your demand be satisfied by addition of a glyph that turns your currently equipped weapon into a twohander?

    Because you sound like you just want your toon to swing a two-handed weapon. It's kinda obvious that it's a lot of work to make two-handers to work with enhancement shaman, and reasoning behind it is "just for the sake of it"
    Like i said, many people would be satisfied yes. I would also be partially satisfied as well. However i added other "justifications" for wanting it. Having a tactile feedback on damage sources by nearly halving them and having a less normalized damage output is 2 of them ([I]if you fully read my posts, i deeply explained my reasoning and it's not about 1shoting people with 2h wf procs[/I)).

    Why is this any different for frost DK? They wanted 2h option for years. They wanted it just for the sake of it. They are getting it just for the sake of it. Why do we need to provide more justification for wanting it? Why must we be painted as stupid/inconsiderate people for wanting, just for the sake of it?

    A lot of people proposed a lot of problems that may arise. All of them considered when read everything everyone wrote in this thread. What it boils down to is: "It would require slightly more work than frost dk". Which i can't go beyond speculation since i don't exactly how they are doing these additions and guessing from what i read off of other people and datamining wowhead does. But i must say it looks quite easy work of an afternoon for experienced wow developers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Justifying changes because you want to make a new spec > justifying changes just because.
    Don't you think you're being a little hypocritical here? Can we better word it like?:

    Justifying changes just because you want to make a new spec = justifying changes just because you want new weapon choise.

    I'm not against tank spec. Go for it. More fun for shaman. But you guys keep comparing work required between frost 2h and enhancement 2h... While comparing work of 2h option and whole another spec doesn't cross your mind? You don't compare work when YOU want something? But it's too much work for other people's desires?

  2. #82
    I would be ok with a glyph yes. I don't really care if lava lash damages are coming from my left hand, my wrong foot or the bottom of the univers. I just need to figure out (or Wordup^^) if it's a filler, a builder or a spender etc, it's CD... when I'm supposed to press the button basically... the fantasy behind the name of spells never really made sense anyway apart from the obvious "heal" for healers, "fireball" for mage and a few other stuff like that.

    about "to much work just for the sake of it", it reminds me titan's grip. I always wondered why! just for the sake of it?? it never made sense to me. was it a lot of work? did the changes from old scholl disc priest to current disc cost us a full xpac worth of raids??

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    Here's why ion said enhancement is "trickier"

    In legion, every ability in game (except for casters) were tied to weapon damage to scale better. So specs like windwalker monk would still need a good weapon even tho they don't actively use it with their abilities.

    These formulas are not shown to public but wowhead thinks, they look something like this

    (Attack Power + Weapon DPS * 6) * AP Coefficient * Damage Multiplier

    Which is a fairly easy one to work around with^^ (you can search article on wowhead "formula for calculating ability damage")

    Now since we are moving away from spec design
    They HAVE TO make brewmaster abilities (2h) work for windwalker (duelwield) and visa versa. Since they are making 2 formulas for most of the class abilities, they probably thought like, "well, we might as well scale these remaining ones too, to give players a choise". Which is seriously awesome of them!

    But since enhancement only has 1 kind of melee dps spec, abilities were never made to scale around for 2h during legion. This is the only reason i can think of why they are not giving us 2h.

    All damage formulas for death knights, monks and hunters (most probably warriors too) are being updated to work with both 2h weapons and duel wielding for this business. They are excluding enhancement because its too much of a hassle.

    It's now or never guys. We have to make them know we want it bad. This is the only expansion they decided to listen to players.
    it will not happen.

    as MUCH (this is a huge MUCH) as i would like it (2hand mace days felt soooo great, and not because of wind fury or numbers), blizz will not do it.

    why i am sure?

    look, all the class changes you see are based on easy eye catching. technology wise all what they do is easy and.... cheap. doing enhance 2h right is NOT easy. and NOT cheap. and when i hear blizz saying in the first week of alpha „stuff like 2h enhance will not happen“ then i know for sure, that they are sooooo far away from doin it.

    in the end, blizz have a customer base over 36 specs. this means they please for that investment a 36th of their playerbase. very low gain for that investment. result: ignored.

    would it be cool like shit ? yes.
    will they go for it ? no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S2H View Post
    Everyone acts like its so hard to remove an OH item restriction from a spell. I'm against 2H enhancement but seriously you can remove the restriction
    this is not that easy. blizzard formed in Legion well rounded combat styles. every spell has a specific animation. to get a good looking 2h enhancer, you not only have to „allow 2h transmog“. you have to make sure, when i.e. the 2hand glyph is active, all the enhance spells use 2h version of the animation. the code here is not the problem. these are a few ifs and thens. but a 2h animation for lets say Stormstrike not yet exists. so deisgmers have to design it. after that you have to look at all spells and if, with given standard rotation, the whole combat feeling looks good and works, when rotation is running and all animations come in sequence. this is what they did with all melees in Legion. you have to do that with new enhancer 2h too, even when its „just“ tmog.

    this costs time and effort aka money and is not just a DB switch. for a 36th of your playerbase i am not sure blizz will invest that.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-04-18 at 03:05 PM.

  4. #84
    Well they ARE doing it for 1/36, which is frost. Which doesn't have ANY more justification than we do. (which is awesome). They ARE considering for SMF too. Damage formulas has been iterated for a hundred times and i bet they made them very easy for themselves to tweak around.

    Did you just see developer interview notes on here? They will adjust damage numbers of EVERY torghast enemy for EACH spec. Not for every role, for EACH spec. If adding 2h option for a spec is too much work, making 36 versions of EVERY torghast enemy would be literally impossible. I think this kind of balancing we ask, is something they eat for breakfast after 15 years of balancing and iterating their system.

    About animations, i believe attack animations are tied to races and not abilities. Like each race has 3-5 1h attack and every ability use 1 of them and get some sparkle added onto them ie: lightning.

    I don't think this is something we should feel bad for wanting it. They DID it for frost. If it really turns out harder than balancing frost, they could use this time to take a better look at enhancement. Maybe they figure out something they couldn't before and even duel wield becomes better for it. We can't be bad people for wanting something! Come on.

    This is alpha, with removal of BFA systems AND level squish. EVERY ability is already getting looked at and being tweaked. Lightning shield damage is being removed, they will add that damage % into something else. They COULD do these things with our desire for 2h in mind. Which is NOT gonna double their work. They will simply add another coefficiency for 2h, along with DW. Weapons are (probably) just attack power sticks as far as damage system is concerned.

    They need to know just how much we want it. And how much of us think 2h enhancement is an awesome looking addition. Which some of you don't agree and that's ok.

    But there really isn't a balance/technology/workload problem to implement it. You CAN want it. I think you guys are just afraid to be dissappointed again

  5. #85
    I'd much prefer the transmog route so they don't have to do any, or much, additional work on class mechanics.

    I don't know what the guts of Blizzard's game looks like, but I can infer based on the way they handle artifact transmog, certain buffs that replace your weapon with a 2hander, and animation changes caused by transmog (2h sword -> polearm, 1h sword -> fist weapon), that they could make it work without having it look broken.

    Concerns and solutions:

    Auto attack animation speed - Only play animation on main hand swings.

    Auto attack combat text not matching swing animations - Group MH and OH damage numbers in floating combat text or ignore it since abilities often clip auto attack animations anyway.

    Missing offhand for certain abilities - Move particle effects to main hand, designate substitute animation.

    Dual weapon ability animations - same as above, though I think attacks like Stormstrike could still look cool with an empty offhand.

    That's all I could think of. 1handers for Fury wouldn't really require any changes other than removing the weapon-type restriction on transmog.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    Well they ARE doing it for 1/36, which is frost. Which doesn't have ANY more justification than we do. (which is awesome). They ARE considering for SMF too. Damage formulas has been iterated for a hundred times and i bet they made them very easy for themselves to tweak around.

    Did you just see developer interview notes on here? They will adjust damage numbers of EVERY torghast enemy for EACH spec. Not for every role, for EACH spec. If adding 2h option for a spec is too much work, making 36 versions of EVERY torghast enemy would be literally impossible. I think this kind of balancing we ask, is something they eat for breakfast after 15 years of balancing and iterating their system.

    About animations, i believe attack animations are tied to races and not abilities. Like each race has 3-5 1h attack and every ability use 1 of them and get some sparkle added onto them ie: lightning.

    I don't think this is something we should feel bad for wanting it. They DID it for frost. If it really turns out harder than balancing frost, they could use this time to take a better look at enhancement. Maybe they figure out something they couldn't before and even duel wield becomes better for it. We can't be bad people for wanting something! Come on.

    This is alpha, with removal of BFA systems AND level squish. EVERY ability is already getting looked at and being tweaked. Lightning shield damage is being removed, they will add that damage % into something else. They COULD do these things with our desire for 2h in mind. Which is NOT gonna double their work. They will simply add another coefficiency for 2h, along with DW. Weapons are (probably) just attack power sticks as far as damage system is concerned.

    They need to know just how much we want it. And how much of us think 2h enhancement is an awesome looking addition. Which some of you don't agree and that's ok.

    But there really isn't a balance/technology/workload problem to implement it. You CAN want it. I think you guys are just afraid to be dissappointed again
    They are doing it for frost because as recently as mid WoD, it was a supported spec/playstyle. IIRC, 2H frost was the preferred spec through early highmaul, before 1h overtook it. What that means is they have animations, itemization, and a framework for balance, none of which exist for enh, which hasn't been a real spec really ever, but you could sort of play it in vanilla/early BC. I think people are also underestimating the balance issues that the switch between 1h/2h will cause, for both specs. The two specs are pretty similar really, with a lot of the same issues. How do you balance weapon inbues/runeforging? Proc based systems such as killing machine/stormbringer? resource generating talents based on hitting the target? If your comeback is, "well, they're doing that for frost!" My answer is, they haven't done it for frost - on the alpha 2H frost is non competitive atm, and even in previous iterations, there was always one version that was clearly better. Some people may say that they would be happy doing less damage if they could go 2H, but for every person who says that, there is probably 10 who would be upset if their preferred playstyle isn't optimal.

    Torghast balancing is way different from live DPS balancing. They just have to adjust mob health/damage to make sure content is clearable. They don't have to design whole class mechanics around it.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by MBTL90 View Post
    They are doing it for frost because as recently as mid WoD, it was a supported spec/playstyle. IIRC, 2H frost was the preferred spec through early highmaul, before 1h overtook it. What that means is they have animations, itemization, and a framework for balance, none of which exist for enh, which hasn't been a real spec really ever, but you could sort of play it in vanilla/early BC. I think people are also underestimating the balance issues that the switch between 1h/2h will cause, for both specs. The two specs are pretty similar really, with a lot of the same issues. How do you balance weapon inbues/runeforging? Proc based systems such as killing machine/stormbringer? resource generating talents based on hitting the target? If your comeback is, "well, they're doing that for frost!" My answer is, they haven't done it for frost - on the alpha 2H frost is non competitive atm, and even in previous iterations, there was always one version that was clearly better. Some people may say that they would be happy doing less damage if they could go 2H, but for every person who says that, there is probably 10 who would be upset if their preferred playstyle isn't optimal.

    Torghast balancing is way different from live DPS balancing. They just have to adjust mob health/damage to make sure content is clearable. They don't have to design whole class mechanics around it.
    Oh yea, frost deserve it cus they had it more recently?
    They are not doing it for frost? 2h frost is not competative atm? Why are you just lying man? Why are you doing this to yourself.

    You know what, don't read.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJGHjqfwGck

    watch this. 2h frost and duel frost is IDENTICAL on alpha. Even with auto attacks and every ability. Everything deal EXACT same damage.

    I'm amazed at people on this thread opposing passionately something they won't even feel. Is it simply you dont want anyone to enjoy anything? 2h enhancement, just like 2h frost, will hit and play exactly like duel wield. It WON'T touch your playstyle.

  8. #88
    The Patient Motso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post

    It's now or never guys. We have to make them know we want it bad. This is the only expansion they decided to listen to players.
    This will never, ever happen. The number of Shaman players who actually want a 2h Enh spec is pathetically small, they just bitch a lot here. It is a stupid idea and Blizzard know this.

  9. #89
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    People are still fixated on that vanilla spec that lasted 5 min before it got obliterated? You think you would again 1 shot peeps with windfury procs? Ye, good luck with convincing Blizz. I mean, why is no one asking about bringing back sham tanks? Rockbiter did generate high threat in the past, after all.
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  10. #90
    Raid itemization is a bigger issue than Lava Lash. Just count how many 2H axe/mace specs there are. That said, dual wield doesn’t feel good and I would kill for 2H back.

  11. #91
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    I play an Enh/resto shaman, can't say I would use 2H if it was an option. DW feels so much more aggressive/befitting of them IMO. Like using Doomhammer + the purely-elemental offhand in Legion, that was amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I mean, why is no one asking about bringing back sham tanks? Rockbiter did generate high threat in the past, after all.
    I'd be more excited for this than 2H, by a mile.
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    watch this. 2h frost and duel frost is IDENTICAL on alpha. Even with auto attacks and every ability. Everything deal EXACT same damage.

    I'm amazed at people on this thread opposing passionately something they won't even feel. Is it simply you dont want anyone to enjoy anything? 2h enhancement, just like 2h frost, will hit and play exactly like duel wield. It WON'T touch your playstyle.
    This guy is wrong btw.
    Killing machine (frosts main mechanic) is tied to swing timer as is Runic Attenuation (resource gen) both skills proc significantly more with DW. That's not even going into losing the razorice runeforge (which in turn makes mastery more valuable for DW) which the guy in your video (who clearly doesn't play dk, like at all) basically immediately accidentally discovers the difference.
    If they want 2h to scale at all it will have to be balanced separately from DW.

    I'm not saying don't advocate for 2h enhance if that's you hill to die on. I'm saying 2h Frost is not going to help your argument.

  13. #93
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    I don't understand why you guys are against it.
    Well personally it has to do with what I've seen happen in the past. Once people get 2H enhancement back, they won't be happy unless its playstyle is right. Then they'll want more weapons, and then they'll want it to be balanced, or in some cases, better than dual wield. Additionally, the time they'll have to take properly tuning 2Hand enhancement is time they could be spending making the current spec more engaging and balanced. It's a question of importance. Bring something back that hasn't seen the light of day for 10 years or more, OR polish what we already have to a gorgeous shine? I'd prefer the latter, and they have a long way to go before current enhancement is in a proper state. This clamoring for 2hand to return needs to be put on a back burner until we're in a better place.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Well personally it has to do with what I've seen happen in the past. Once people get 2H enhancement back, they won't be happy unless its playstyle is right. Then they'll want more weapons, and then they'll want it to be balanced, or in some cases, better than dual wield. Additionally, the time they'll have to take properly tuning 2Hand enhancement is time they could be spending making the current spec more engaging and balanced. It's a question of importance. Bring something back that hasn't seen the light of day for 10 years or more, OR polish what we already have to a gorgeous shine? I'd prefer the latter, and they have a long way to go before current enhancement is in a proper state. This clamoring for 2hand to return needs to be put on a back burner until we're in a better place.
    This is the same sentiment I've said since the inception of this ragtag argument that crops up every Alpha/Beta cycle.

    The spec has had so many issues over the past 4-6 years, adding 2h in basically doubles the requirement to get it competitive. The "I'd reroll in a heartbeat" sentiments about it kind of fall flat when so many have rolled away FROM it this expansion in particular not because of how it looks, but because of how much it's struggled. Adding 2h will not change that at all and may actively add fuel to the fire of it being behind.

  15. #95
    Guys, last time enh was "designed" with 2h in mind it was '06-'07. Then they gave them DW and ever since then EVERY design aspect was around that.

    Comparing DKs and Monks having this choice to enh is comparing apples to oranges, since both of those spec were DESIGNED to have this choice in their playstyle (from procs, resources, everything else). To make 2h work on enh is effectively reworking the ENTIRE spec from SCRATCH.
    Now, if you just want a 2h shaman melee spec, i have no problem with this idea, it fits thematically, and blizzard can design it from the ground up as a new spec. BUT, if your point is the want 2h ENHANCEMENT, which last time was viable, our rotation was stormstrike>frost shock, then i am against that.

    In trying to make that work you will make the current playstyle worse, move dev resources that could be used in other matters, and even drive people away that like the enh spec as it is now (which to be frank, most of the people never knew how it played as 2h).

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    I find it more surprising that people want this more than a tanking spec.

    I'd very much prefer to have a Earthwarder spec
    I'm with you on this.

    You know what would be cool? Make a tanking spec and make it based on using a 2hander or build it with the idea of 2H or DW like monks. Shams are the only hybrid class with no tank spec. We got a whole lot of potential for it with the underused earth element (I hate earth for enh, but for a tank spec, yeah I'd like it). Since they went away with the whole spec identity, earthwarder spec could have WF as part of it's toolset. I'd honestly really like it if they did that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    this is not that easy. blizzard formed in Legion well rounded combat styles. every spell has a specific animation. to get a good looking 2h enhancer, you not only have to „allow 2h transmog“. you have to make sure, when i.e. the 2hand glyph is active, all the enhance spells use 2h version of the animation. the code here is not the problem. these are a few ifs and thens. but a 2h animation for lets say Stormstrike not yet exists. so deisgmers have to design it. after that you have to look at all spells and if, with given standard rotation, the whole combat feeling looks good and works, when rotation is running and all animations come in sequence. this is what they did with all melees in Legion. you have to do that with new enhancer 2h too, even when its „just“ tmog.
    Just a nuance, I believe the current animations were made to be easily interchangeable. Enh doesn't have unique animations, all specs use the same bank of moves now. Some moves are even the same between 2H and 1H. Death strike for example use the same exact animation that you are in 2H or 1H. 2H users also use some moves that have the weapon only in 1 hand. They made it this way to be easier to maintain. it's why things like stormstrike now simply change the weapon's color and transparency and have some particles effects on them. They made weapon animations streamlined exactly so they can easily played with.

    There is a 2H animation similar to lava lash (spin with the weapon in 1 Hand from behind), boulderfist animations uses the MH and can be kept intact, some 2H classes already uses it. SS has a choice of several 2H moves and I just saw that SS first strike is called "execute". Which I went to check on and arms warriors do use the same animation when executing. It does feel like it was thought out a bit more for DW tho. I'd rather they use the big jump 2H attack for the first strike but it might become a bit redundant, although SS has the particularity of using a different animations when used in succession.

    As far as animation goes, thats the part I am the least worried about. They did a good job with the weapon animation and this is IMO a moment where that work would pay off.

    My problem with 2H enh really lies with the fact that we are a chaotic class with procs that can proc other stuff which then proc back your first proc. Your DMG can be very different 1 minute to the next. I would be afraid that changing enh's mechanic to work in a PPM fashion would make the spec feel a lot different. Then again, maybe all enh would need would be to make it so that when you use 2H, wind comes to your aid and make you attack faster and then all blizz need to do is to increase the proc chance of WF, SB and MSW to be increased by X% to equalize.

    I just did some testing on the PTR (since I quit BFA after 3 months), I don't have any worthwhile 2Handers other then... a 340 staff... and using 2 ilvl 20 1Handers VS a 2Hander and everything hit for more or less the same thing up to a difference of 10-15 dmg. That means that with minimum AP impact from the weapon, both spec would have every ability deal very similar DMG. How different would that DMG be with proper 2Hander, I can't really tell. My doomhammer (233) SS dmg was 11 825 while with the staff (340) it was 11 875. Lower ilvl but very similar DMG so there is probably some formula they use to calculate AP when in 2H vs DW. Weapon swing dmg is of course totally ignored as the weapon DMG of the staff is 2.5 times that of doomhammer. Which is expected since as I said earlier, all abilities use % of attack power now and do not use the weapon swing DMG.

    And yes, currently, if you equip a 2Hander, WF does proc. FT attacks do happen and they all deal almost the same DMG.

    I wish I was a dev at blizz so I could just lift off the the restrictions on SS and LL, pop myself a 2H axe that has agility (which is a non-issue considering we have personal loot now. The only pitfall would be what if you want nothing to do with 2Handers and a boss drop a 2H axe AND a 1H axe... Which is kinda a problem SMF fury and frost will have so perhaps they already got something in mind) and test out how it works.

    Flametongue DMG would also be a problem. The problem is that it will always deal the same DMG. If you increase the DMG it does, it also means it will deal more DMG overall because of SS and LL. It would need some weird calculations like if attack is auto -> DMG = base DMG times * whatever speed modifier Else -> DMG = base DMG.

    Crash lightning is non issue as it procs on LL and SS which would stay the same.

    A very easy and simple solution I could see for blizz to do this would be to make it so that when you use a 2hander, your attack speed is increased to give the same number of attacks per minute but lower the auto-attack DMG of it to be equal to if that weapon was a 1Hander. Which would probably look funky TBH lol. Also, 2Handers needs to be able to have 2 imbues.

    Overall, I'm not totally closed to the idea. I think they should study it and see how much work it would take. I saw the frost DK's actually have different calculations for frost strike and obliterate depending on if using 1Hander or 2Hander. I know that back in the days the priority was different, if anyone has beta or knows, is that formula different because AP is different from using a big 2Hander VS 1 hander or is it because they will keep the the difference like back in the days where DW would use KM on frost strikes while 2H uses them on obliterate?

    Anyways, there is a lot to take into account in the case of enh 2H. I don't think it's impossible. Nothing is impossible. I just think the class is not designed with that in mind and the way it has been makes it really hard to balance. You not only have to change dmg coefficient but chances to proc stuff. Out spec is procs on procs as I said earlier. Moving to PPM would probably hurt the feel of the class. There is just... a lot to think about. I'm down for them trying it, specially since were not getting a new class but... I don't want that time to hurt time spent on our spec and others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    Oh yea, frost deserve it cus they had it more recently?
    They are not doing it for frost? 2h frost is not competative atm? Why are you just lying man? Why are you doing this to yourself.

    You know what, don't read.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJGHjqfwGck

    watch this. 2h frost and duel frost is IDENTICAL on alpha. Even with auto attacks and every ability. Everything deal EXACT same damage.

    I'm amazed at people on this thread opposing passionately something they won't even feel. Is it simply you dont want anyone to enjoy anything? 2h enhancement, just like 2h frost, will hit and play exactly like duel wield. It WON'T touch your playstyle.
    Ah, so I didn't check the video much but it shows everything dealing the same DMG? Well see, yes that means their dmg formulas using attack power instead of weapon swing works. It also means that right now, frost will always have the same gameplay while it used to be different between 2H and DW. 2H focused on obliterate, DW on FS. I'm intrigued as to if there will be a difference in DMG in the end as DW uses 2 runes instead of 1.

    But see, this doesn't fix enh's problems. Frost is a straighforward spec. You auto-attack, you crit, you get KM procs which are set on as PPM. You will always have the same amount of auto-attacks in 1 minute, so the proc chance depending on weapon attack speed is easy to calculate. Your obliterates are controlled by your runes which always generate at the same speed. You OB have a chance to proc rime which again, you will be able to use OB at the same rate that you DW or use a 2H. Frost was thought for this. It was harder to balance in the past because the gameplay was slightly different but now if they settle for only 1 gameplay, it becomes much simplier.

    Enh doesn't have that luxury. We have procs that depend on our weapon swings, weapon swings and abilities proc more stuff. Those stuff proc other stuff, etc etc. Stop trying to compare enh to frost, monks or SMF. Those were all built around the choice and use of ressources. Enh was built around randomness and chaos. I'm all down for them to try and test it, but the fact that the 2H people are hellbent on using examples that have nothing to do with enh's challenges turns me off completely. Hell, I explained that WF would deal the same dmg that you DW or use a 2hander earlier in the thread and now it's being used as an argument as to why 2H should work. Abilities doing the same DMG does not change the fact our problems lie with our numerous procs and passive DMG from all attacks and not with tuning each abilities DMG. All procs chances need to be studied. Flametongue weapon DMG needs to be individually looked at to stay the same between having much less weapon swings but the same amount of SS and LL. WF procs needs to be tuned to happen around the same amount of times. Everything needs to be looked at.

    The one thing I could see is them having more complicated formulas. Like WF could be turned into a PPM (or higher proc chance) only for 2Handers auto-attacks. SS would retain 20% chance. Same for SB and MSW. Same proc chance on abilities but different on AA. But then you also need a special case for when you get a WF proc out of a SS. It needs to be able to say that a WF proc coming from SS has the same chance to proc MSW and SB then DW.

    There is a lot to think about. It's not so easy to do for enh.
    Last edited by Kalarm; 2020-04-19 at 05:55 AM.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarm View Post
    I'm with you on this.

    You know what would be cool? Make a tanking spec and make it based on using a 2hander or build it with the idea of 2H or DW like monks. Shams are the only hybrid class with no tank spec. We got a whole lot of potential for it with the underused earth element (I hate earth for enh, but for a tank spec, yeah I'd like it). Since they went away with the whole spec identity, earthwarder spec could have WF as part of it's toolset. I'd honestly really like it if they did that.

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    Just a nuance, I believe the current animations were made to be easily interchangeable. Enh doesn't have unique animations, all specs use the same bank of moves now. Some moves are even the same between 2H and 1H. Death strike for example use the same exact animation that you are in 2H or 1H. 2H users also use some moves that have the weapon only in 1 hand. They made it this way to be easier to maintain. it's why things like stormstrike now simply change the weapon's color and transparency and have some particles effects on them. They made weapon animations streamlined exactly so they can easily played with.

    There is a 2H animation similar to lava lash (spin with the weapon in 1 Hand from behind), boulderfist animations uses the MH and can be kept intact, some 2H classes already uses it. SS has a choice of several 2H moves and I just saw that SS first strike is called "execute". Which I went to check on and arms warriors do use the same animation when executing. It does feel like it was thought out a bit more for DW tho. I'd rather they use the big jump 2H attack for the first strike but it might become a bit redundant, although SS has the particularity of using a different animations when used in succession.

    As far as animation goes, thats the part I am the least worried about. They did a good job with the weapon animation and this is IMO a moment where that work would pay off.

    My problem with 2H enh really lies with the fact that we are a chaotic class with procs that can proc other stuff which then proc back your first proc. Your DMG can be very different 1 minute to the next. I would be afraid that changing enh's mechanic to work in a PPM fashion would make the spec feel a lot different. Then again, maybe all enh would need would be to make it so that when you use 2H, wind comes to your aid and make you attack faster and then all blizz need to do is to increase the proc chance of WF, SB and MSW to be increased by X% to equalize.

    I just did some testing on the PTR (since I quit BFA after 3 months), I don't have any worthwhile 2Handers other then... a 340 staff... and using 2 ilvl 20 1Handers VS a 2Hander and everything hit for more or less the same thing up to a difference of 10-15 dmg. That means that with minimum AP impact from the weapon, both spec would have every ability deal very similar DMG. How different would that DMG be with proper 2Hander, I can't really tell. My doomhammer (233) SS dmg was 11 825 while with the staff (340) it was 11 875. Lower ilvl but very similar DMG so there is probably some formula they use to calculate AP when in 2H vs DW. Weapon swing dmg is of course totally ignored as the weapon DMG of the staff is 2.5 times that of doomhammer. Which is expected since as I said earlier, all abilities use % of attack power now and do not use the weapon swing DMG.

    And yes, currently, if you equip a 2Hander, WF does proc. FT attacks do happen and they all deal almost the same DMG.

    I wish I was a dev at blizz so I could just lift off the the restrictions on SS and LL, pop myself a 2H axe that has agility (which is a non-issue considering we have personal loot now. The only pitfall would be what if you want nothing to do with 2Handers and a boss drop a 2H axe AND a 1H axe... Which is kinda a problem SMF fury and frost will have so perhaps they already got something in mind) and test out how it works.

    Flametongue DMG would also be a problem. The problem is that it will always deal the same DMG. If you increase the DMG it does, it also means it will deal more DMG overall because of SS and LL. It would need some weird calculations like if attack is auto -> DMG = base DMG times * whatever speed modifier Else -> DMG = base DMG.

    Crash lightning is non issue as it procs on LL and SS which would stay the same.

    A very easy and simple solution I could see for blizz to do this would be to make it so that when you use a 2hander, your attack speed is increased to give the same number of attacks per minute but lower the auto-attack DMG of it to be equal to if that weapon was a 1Hander. Which would probably look funky TBH lol. Also, 2Handers needs to be able to have 2 imbues.

    Overall, I'm not totally closed to the idea. I think they should study it and see how much work it would take. I saw the frost DK's actually have different calculations for frost strike and obliterate depending on if using 1Hander or 2Hander. I know that back in the days the priority was different, if anyone has beta or knows, is that formula different because AP is different from using a big 2Hander VS 1 hander or is it because they will keep the the difference like back in the days where DW would use KM on frost strikes while 2H uses them on obliterate?

    Anyways, there is a lot to take into account in the case of enh 2H. I don't think it's impossible. Nothing is impossible. I just think the class is not designed with that in mind and the way it has been makes it really hard to balance. You not only have to change dmg coefficient but chances to proc stuff. Out spec is procs on procs as I said earlier. Moving to PPM would probably hurt the feel of the class. There is just... a lot to think about. I'm down for them trying it, specially since were not getting a new class but... I don't want that time to hurt time spent on our spec and others.

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    Ah, so I didn't check the video much but it shows everything dealing the same DMG? Well see, yes that means their dmg formulas using attack power instead of weapon swing works. It also means that right now, frost will always have the same gameplay while it used to be different between 2H and DW. 2H focused on obliterate, DW on FS. I'm intrigued as to if there will be a difference in DMG in the end as DW uses 2 runes instead of 1.

    But see, this doesn't fix enh's problems. Frost is a straighforward spec. You auto-attack, you crit, you get KM procs which are set on as PPM. You will always have the same amount of auto-attacks in 1 minute, so the proc chance depending on weapon attack speed is easy to calculate. Your obliterates are controlled by your runes which always generate at the same speed. You OB have a chance to proc rime which again, you will be able to use OB at the same rate that you DW or use a 2H. Frost was thought for this. It was harder to balance in the past because the gameplay was slightly different but now if they settle for only 1 gameplay, it becomes much simplier.

    Enh doesn't have that luxury. We have procs that depend on our weapon swings, weapon swings and abilities proc more stuff. Those stuff proc other stuff, etc etc. Stop trying to compare enh to frost, monks or SMF. Those were all built around the choice and use of ressources. Enh was built around randomness and chaos. I'm all down for them to try and test it, but the fact that the 2H people are hellbent on using examples that have nothing to do with enh's challenges turns me off completely. Hell, I explained that WF would deal the same dmg that you DW or use a 2hander earlier in the thread and now it's being used as an argument as to why 2H should work. Abilities doing the same DMG does not change the fact our problems lie with our numerous procs and passive DMG from all attacks and not with tuning each abilities DMG. All procs chances need to be studied. Flametongue weapon DMG needs to be individually looked at to stay the same between having much less weapon swings but the same amount of SS and LL. WF procs needs to be tuned to happen around the same amount of times. Everything needs to be looked at.

    The one thing I could see is them having more complicated formulas. Like WF could be turned into a PPM (or higher proc chance) only for 2Handers auto-attacks. SS would retain 20% chance. Same for SB and MSW. Same proc chance on abilities but different on AA. But then you also need a special case for when you get a WF proc out of a SS. It needs to be able to say that a WF proc coming from SS has the same chance to proc MSW and SB then DW.

    There is a lot to think about. It's not so easy to do for enh.
    maybe you are right with your mid part. cant say too much about it, bc i am just not deep enough into it. but i just talked about (or better said: answered the other guy) t-mogging to 2h and that its not THAT easy like some ppl here think. i talked not about changing enh to 2h via a „single minded fury“ (warrior) talent or something along those lines. ofc, making enh full 2h is a lot of work and many things to consider and ofc animations is the smallest part compared with the class mechanics itself.

    i just wrote this to clarify, not to disagree.

    that said: in the end of the day i personally have the feeling, regardless what and how, blizzard will not invest the time/effort aka money, wether for tmog nor for mechanics, because they always go the cost effective development route since 5+ years. and they simply not invest in a feature that please a 36th of their playerbase (enh is 1 spec of 36 specs). so, imo, its useless to speculate. they will not do it. sad but true.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-04-19 at 10:01 AM.

  18. #98
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    This is the same sentiment I've said since the inception of this ragtag argument that crops up every Alpha/Beta cycle.

    The spec has had so many issues over the past 4-6 years, adding 2h in basically doubles the requirement to get it competitive. The "I'd reroll in a heartbeat" sentiments about it kind of fall flat when so many have rolled away FROM it this expansion in particular not because of how it looks, but because of how much it's struggled. Adding 2h will not change that at all and may actively add fuel to the fire of it being behind.
    This makes sense.

    Rather they spend their time & resources fine tuning the way the spec currently works than taking that way to just add 2 hand.

    If you guys want time allocated to smth else, argue for a tank spec. At least, in vanilla the talent tree actually had skills that were tank oriented and, you know, people actually built tanking specs.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    This is the same sentiment I've said since the inception of this ragtag argument that crops up every Alpha/Beta cycle.

    The spec has had so many issues over the past 4-6 years, adding 2h in basically doubles the requirement to get it competitive. The "I'd reroll in a heartbeat" sentiments about it kind of fall flat when so many have rolled away FROM it this expansion in particular not because of how it looks, but because of how much it's struggled. Adding 2h will not change that at all and may actively add fuel to the fire of it being behind.
    my sentiment is that when blizzard made such big change in a spec, it ended up being overpowered in most of the cases.... this is not going to add fuel of the fire of being behind after all those years of issues, even if the op'ness doesn't last long, at last we'll be competitive for a bit.... and just like you wrote, the spec has had so many issues over the years, makes me want to say that dual whielding doesn't work that good. is starting from scratch with 2H would be much more work than keep trying to make dual competitive? 4-6 years, still issues with it. they need to put some work on it anyway....
    Last edited by Beuargh; 2020-04-19 at 04:58 PM.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    If shaman became 2H again i change my main in a heartbeat.
    Shaman cannot become 2H *AGAIN*, since they have never been 2H to begin with.

    Yes, there were a few Shaman in Vanilla, who dabbed into 2H enhancement, but it was never intended, supported or wanted by Blizzard. Also, the DPS from 2H was always inferior to DW.
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > ShaLa > MoP > DF > BfA > WoD = WotLK

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