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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    No. PUG'ing is not the problem. The problem is entitled people who seem to think they the $15/20 they give Blizzard per month makes them somehow more special than the rest of us. They seem to think they can dictate the terms and such. It is all about them. I had this happen last week in an LFR. 28 people wanted to Vexiona for loot, completion of the raid, encrypted texts, etc. One tank and a healer tried to hold the group hostage because they did not want to do that boss and Blizzard made a mistake in not gating Hive/Ra'den behind Vexiona. The group just sat there until an Unholy DK went Blood and, on the fly, tanked it with the second one after the two jerks left.

    When you PUG, you have 4-29 other people you are working WITH. People forget that. Blizzard did not take the the "multiplayer" out of MMO, players did.

    The real "Truth Behind the Toxic Environment in WoW" can be boiled down to one word.... SELFISHNESS.
    I agree. But the simple fact is that if you play with your friends or with a good guild then you can avoid the people you describe. Makes life much easier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Pretty much. The stranger of today, may be the friend list buddy of tomorrow, so I behave appropriately.
    And this is why you should befriend the strangers that are nice. So you don't have to always run with strangers. Because the chance of running into a nasty person is much greater if you always are PUG'ing.

  2. #22
    Real problem is a lack of segregation among players naturally. Add to that the fact gold selling is a extremely toxic element in the community pushing people past what they can actually achieve and you build a community that doesn't trust itself.

    It is why raider io is king. It is the hardest system for players to cheat.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    Real problem is a lack of segregation among players naturally. Add to that the fact gold selling is a extremely toxic element in the community pushing people past what they can actually achieve and you build a community that doesn't trust itself.

    It is why raider io is king. It is the hardest system for players to cheat.
    I agree. I mostly run with friends and guildies, but when I need a random person for M+ I use raider.io. Because it's my only chance to quickly get a little bit of insight in who this person is. From experience I often find that people who also have mythic raid progression are less toxic than people who only run M+. Maybe because they are used to being in a guild team and behaving nicely.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I agree. I mostly run with friends and guildies, but when I need a random person for M+ I use raider.io. Because it's my only chance to quickly get a little bit of insight in who this person is. From experience I often find that people who also have mythic raid progression are less toxic than people who only run M+. Maybe because they are used to being in a guild team and behaving nicely.
    People who group together to take down a goal they are unable to alone and one that requires rather regimented thinking like mythic are always more willing to take the most efficient path to getting something done.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But then it's not really toxic is it? If you say something to people you know as a joke then it's not the same as insulting strangers. I can also call most of my real-life friends c*nt with no issue because they know I'm joking.

    If you read through the threads in here complaining about toxicity in M+ etc. you will see that most of the experiences they are referring to are from PUGs.
    Which comes down to skillset again.

    People complaining about M+ are 99% doing irrelevant content, the +5 and +7s are literally nothing in terms of..I dont even know, they are simply joke content.

    And again those are guild content, just because Blizzard allows pugging, doesnt mean anything, and its why raider.io was created, to create artificial walls because people got tired of wasting their time, and the people complaining about raider.io are basically two categories.

    1)Entitled selfish spoiled people that believe their 15$ allows them into content without actually being able to play at that content level.

    2)Players that dont understand how low skilled they are at this time of the game, even if they were somehow not shit 10 years ago, which they probably were, but the game was 200 times easier.

    People are expected to get carried because they got spoiled over the years by the way the game is designed and the need for the better players to grind their things.

    Take mandatory grinding away and you are only left with the swamp, of bad players tormenting each other.
    Last edited by potis; 2020-04-16 at 12:58 PM.

  6. #26
    The Patient Sanstos's Avatar
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    IMO, the actual toxicity comes from anonymity.

    How would we engage with each other if everyone knew our IRL names and addresses? I know half the people who name call would never do it in person.

    This is just the way it is.

  7. #27
    Bloodsail Admiral Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    I actually stopped doing raids/dungeons altogether because so many people in groups I went into were complete a**holes. It took a huge toll on my anxiety and I finally decided that I wasn't going to put myself into an environment like that if I'm just going to feel awful every time I do it.

    I do miss doing Dungeons and Raids though

    I'm aware I'm on some people's Ignore Lists, don't worry lol
    'Oi Rastakhan! I be havin' Friends on De Other Side mon! Ain't dat just crazy?'

  8. #28
    "Make some friends" i consider that toxic or stupid advice tbh. Most people dont have a group of 4 friends to do dungeons with, not to mention raids. Even if you manage to get in a guild that doesnt disband halfway into a tier its actually pretty rare to get 4 ppl that are up for a dungeon when you want to do one. And if u actually have enough friends to do a dungeon with, speaking from experience, actually getting everyone available at the same time takes more time than just joining/making a pug. Be decent, dont do stupid shit or join unprepared and ppl wont be toxic towards you.

  9. #29
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    No, pugging isn't the problem. The problem is the people who are trying to do content beyond their skill level and ruining it for others who do have the skill level.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    Just another thing that WoW did better when it was just you and the people on your server. I played on a medium to low pop server in early WoW and if you were a massive dick to people then people would know and not invite you
    Not all the time. I started on TBC on a very low pop server with only two guilds that had stable 25 raiding teams and they were dicks to everyone on the server because they knew that they were on the top of the food chain and could pick up players from any of the lesser guilds. So yeah, depending on the situation there was still toxicity even back then.

    I do agree that overall it is way more toxic then it used to be, but thats why finding the right guild for you is so important. I've lasted as long as I have because I'm still in the same guild that I had started way back in TBC. Not a lot of people from when I first started are still playing but we have picked up via pugging some outstanding people who fit our guild culture over the various xpacs. In fact in BFA we picked up about 7 people from different servers who transferred over to our server to continue raiding with us because they enjoyed pugging with us a few raids.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    That was common among all mmo's but that also came with a big negative of being highly reliant on others to do about anything in game. It simply does not work for the majority of people who have to balance a social life, work and a gaming hobby.
    The work life balance doesnt play a role. You just had to not be a dick to people lol

  12. #32
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    The work life balance doesnt play a role. You just had to not be a dick to people lol
    I was talking about that in relation to how MMO's of old used to work and why it would not work any more on a large scale today, a lot of us were teens back than now we are working adults with obligations.

    Old mmo's were structured so that you needed to be online at specific times or you could do nothing, there wasn't any meaningful small scale content, there were even world bosses on very long timers, Wow did a bit better in having instanced raids but other games also had instanced raids on specific spawn timers, you had people camping sites. You had to be part of a large guild, alliance of raidbots channels.

    That am i saying would no longer work to this day, it was more a need of necessity to be nice and even that wasn't always the case there were plenty of toxic groups out there and some of them even were in charge. In any case i would not want to sacrifice the QoL changes for the sake of a 'maybe' better community.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatto View Post
    In the end, the toxicity is something which blizzard allowed back in the years by starting throwing everything to everybody.
    The result of this, is that the game is a casual one and more than before people refused to learn how to play, since they can get rewards almost for free.
    Once upon a time the friends you have were strangers to you.

    Blizzard encourages people to play together (not a strange concept for an MMO) and everyone who is toxic chooses to be toxic, it's not Blizzards fault.

  14. #34
    Pit Lord Advent's Avatar
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    Ain't nobody got time to spend the next twelve years finding a guild full of other neckbeards. :\

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Ain't nobody got time to spend the next twelve years finding a guild full of other neckbeards. :\
    Yeah that takes so much effort..

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I agree. But the simple fact is that if you play with your friends or with a good guild then you can avoid the people you describe. Makes life much easier.
    That is not a cure-all though. My guild is pretty tight-knit but we still have to PUG on occasion to fill a raid or M+ slot. We also have people who cannot commit to the raid times so they use LFR to see that content.

    And, ultimately, it is not an excuse to be an asshole either.

  17. #37
    depends on the context.

    i see a lot more people getting upset/angry/frustrated/passive aggressive in my guild. usually when we get repeat mistakes in raids or when you fuck up a key with certain people in the group. and since you usually are on voice the level of the toxicity is more intense than chat. never been in a guild where everybody gets along and on occasion that shows.

    meanwhile in pugs you see a lot more leavers, people calling others idiots (but a quick inspect/compare achievements usually makes that funny instead), afkers, kicking people, etc.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Most of the threads in here about toxic behavior have one thing in common: They are all based on experiences from PUG'ing.
    While I agree with you, it would still be nice if one could be a bit respectful and decent with each other. Even if you probably never see you again.

    But you are right, its not the game to blame, its the people, but you can see the same thing here in the Forum. I didnt read the thread yet. But I would wager on the first 2 Pages there are probably at least 3 Insults.

    Edit:
    Oh, I´m suprised, just one insulting Post.
    Last edited by LanToaster; 2020-04-16 at 05:20 PM.

  19. #39
    Pit Lord Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Yeah that takes so much effort..
    Idk about you, but it has for me.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Blizzard encourages people to play together (not a strange concept for an MMO) and everyone who is toxic chooses to be toxic, it's not Blizzards fault.
    It's not blizzard fault but they can take steps to discourage it. It's by no means easy and it'll probably take 2-4 years of carefully designed changes to the game and support policies, but it's theoretically possible.

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