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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    It's a nice idea, but I've seen firsthand what happens in places like that. Hell, I was part of it. When raid ends and ppl want to do M+, they pull from other raiders on the team, not the socials. Social members were there to fill guild chat with random conversation. They weren't on the raid team for a reason, and not necessarily because they didn't want to, or couldn't.
    The guild I'm in is definitely not like that. I'm on the raid team, but the people I usually run M+ with are "socials" in the guild. You just need to take a little bit of initiative and of course find people on the same skill-level as you. You of course cant expect to play with people who push +20 keys if you only do +5 yourself
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-04-16 at 09:11 PM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    And PUG'ing is the main problem. A lot of people become very toxic when they play with strangers who they don't care about at all. Especially when it happens on the internet. You almost never see the same level of toxicity in a guild group or friend group that you see in a group of complete strangers. Sure it happens, but it's much less frequent.
    Oh boy, you were this | | close.

    Pugging existed back in the day before group finder.

    The problem is the lack of reputation surrounding it. Before we could join a group and hop to any server, you were limited to grouping with people in your community. That meant you tried harder and were more respectful. If you became known to be a shit or ninja looter, you could get yourself blacklisted on a server level and find it very difficult to continue your WoW experience. Good players would no longer join your groups. You became shunned and your only choice was to hope to try for a name change and not be noticed or hope for a server transfer and have your bullshit not follow you across servers.

    Now that we don't have that accountability, people act like total assholes because they can.

  3. #63
    Valid points. I wish I knew this years ago and didn't see the people who didn't give a damn as the people who did care since they treated me the same as my family

  4. #64
    Pit Lord Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The guild I'm in is definitely not like that. I'm on the raid team, but the people I usually run M+ with are "socials" in the guild. You just need to take a little bit of initiative and of course find people on the same skill-level as you. You of course cant expect to play with people who push +20 keys if you only do +5 yourself
    Of course not. Very unlikely to find people who only do my key level in organized guilds though. Most of the ones I've inquired about run far above 6 and 7. So I pug.

  5. #65
    Bloodsail Admiral Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magistrate View Post
    This website's community is toxic.
    Yeah it can be. I just had someone jump down my throat because he/she didn't like my opinion of Bwonsamdi possibly being mortal.
    I miss the day when people were nice to each other on the internet. I think I need to take a break from browsing for a while

    I'm aware I'm on some people's Ignore Lists, don't worry lol
    'Oi Rastakhan! I be havin' Friends on De Other Side mon! Ain't dat just crazy?'

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    Just another thing that WoW did better when it was just you and the people on your server. I played on a medium to low pop server in early WoW and if you were a massive dick to people then people would know and not invite you
    While this is definitely true it's also a sad reflection on humans in general that we only care about how we treat other people if there is a fear that it will come back to bite us in the back in the future.

  7. #67
    So people are the problem. Got it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zantera View Post
    While this is definitely true it's also a sad reflection on humans in general that we only care about how we treat other people if there is a fear that it will come back to bite us in the back in the future.
    Yup. This is in no way a fault of Blizzard's doing. Just humans being shitty.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    You almost never see the same level of toxicity in a guild group or friend group that you see in a group of complete strangers. Sure it happens, but it's much less frequent.
    Stay away from 99% of high end guilds lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    I miss the day when people were nice to each other on the internet
    This must have been the first couple weeks the internet existed lol
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  9. #69
    That is a bullseye accurate assessment, but the more difficult question is why do players PUG. There are a lot of reasons why, some beyond Blizzard's control to fix, others not. Some players are anti-social. Others may feel they are either too old (over 45) or too young (Under 15) to relate to the average player. Others may find themselves between guilds. Others may be fed up with Guild politics (the reality is - there are a ton of terrible guilds out there). Some guilds may turn to PUGs to help facilitate a few spots here and there, now and then. Some players prefer playing with the strangers because they don't want to be on their best behavior. All of the aforementioned are pretty much beyond Blizzard's control.

    What's not beyond Blizzard's control is putting out a trash product in both WOD and BFA. As a result players quit (usually temporarily) and a greater number of players find themselves in a dead guild or stuck on a dead server. In fairness there isn't much Blizzard can do to prevent players from quitting for a period of time or even putting out trash content (cause the content is more often than not - 100% subjective). Where Blizzard utterly fails is that they have NO CLUE this gap of disenfranchised players exists and they do very little to bring players together or more importantly do something to give incentive to skilled or better geared players to be more inclusive. I honestly don't have any solutions (or at least a fully polished and thought out solution) but at the very least this is a discussion Blizzard should be having with the players, but no...

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    "Classic will be a much happier experience for players because if you don't get into line, you will be blacklisted and harassed off the server." Yeah, that's a healthy social community.

    Even with all of that, Classic is socially not that different an experience than the other game. Assholes are everywhere, even on your realm. Be in a guild, have some friends. If you can't manage either of those there's plenty to do on your own.

    Be open to making friends but be strong enough to not put up with any shit either. People who behave badly are bad people.
    I don't think its always true that people that behave badly are bad people, some people are frustrated and confused with life in general, depression, mental illness. So many things can make a person have a bad day or be lost in life because there are so many parents that think there kids are like plants and make no investment in learning how to do the most important thing they will ever do. Also the failure of religion to teach the value and method of praying for others so we care more for others has led to throwing out the baby with the bath water on all faith. There is hope for most people but it's a process of progression not an on/off switch.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    there are so many parents that think there kids are like plants and make no investment in learning how to do the most important thing they will ever do.
    I found out at least in western society the majority of parents land in 2 camps: one that treat the kid as a special snowflake, "liittle prince(ss)" and such kid grows up to be entitled and expecting everyone to cater to him / her, so everything is someone else's fault, throwing tantrums leads to getting your way etc., and second camp that expects perfection from the kid because they shift their unfulfilled dreams onto the kid and that kid is their future extension, such kid will grow up frustrated, depressed, never satisfied with anything, either themselves or stuff happening around them - so we have people who expect perfect runs, zero wipes, etc.

    Both problems end up with people being toxic, first group are the people who never bother putting any effort and "I pay 15$ a month I deserve" attitude, and second group is people who will put effort but will expect 0 failure both from themselves and from everyone else and insta get tilted if something goes wrong, which means you can't make a challenging game and incorporate "learn from your failures" scenario because failures insta lead to ragequits etc.

    And worst case is both people mingling together.

  12. #72
    It's as if half the post are people wanting better players to PUG with, and the other half are those people not wanting to PUG.

  13. #73
    I have plenty of horror stories involving being in guilds. PUG'ing isn't the only problem. The game just attracts really terrible human beings.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    I found out at least in western society the majority of parents land in 2 camps: one that treat the kid as a special snowflake, "liittle prince(ss)" and such kid grows up to be entitled and expecting everyone to cater to him / her, so everything is someone else's fault, throwing tantrums leads to getting your way etc., and second camp that expects perfection from the kid because they shift their unfulfilled dreams onto the kid and that kid is their future extension, such kid will grow up frustrated, depressed, never satisfied with anything, either themselves or stuff happening around them - so we have people who expect perfect runs, zero wipes, etc.

    Both problems end up with people being toxic, first group are the people who never bother putting any effort and "I pay 15$ a month I deserve" attitude, and second group is people who will put effort but will expect 0 failure both from themselves and from everyone else and insta get tilted if something goes wrong, which means you can't make a challenging game and incorporate "learn from your failures" scenario because failures insta lead to ragequits etc.

    And worst case is both people mingling together.
    While parenting has an effect, it'd only account for kids who are still completely under their parents still. Even worst case scenario (and I'd disagree on some outcomes based upon the starting assumptions), once the kid leaves their parents' watch, real life kicks in and either forces the kid to grow up or permits them to stay a child. I could see a case that growing up takes longer based upon the assumptions, as starting conditions may hamper speed of development and ingrain some behaviors/ideas that are hard to unlearn.

    Be that as it may, I think a more probable correlation is the lack of experiencing true adversity and victimology as a whole with relation to toxicity in WoW as it relates to social norms. While parenting can contribute to the outcome, ultimately it comes down to what society will allow as socially acceptable. If being a victim is praised or lauded, of course people will flock to claim such status as the easy path. If society is fine with people just putting in the mediocre effort to reap the same rewards, again people will take the easy path. Humans tend to default to the path of least resistance, especially if they don't have any driving force, morality, or adversity keeping them on the harder path (doubly so if society doesn't promote it). In essence, the toxicity you see in WoW is actually just a reflection of the socially accepted norms of the players themselves.

    Anecdotally, my experience in WoW is that some of the least toxic people I've met in-game have been people who have actually experience true adversity and didn't claim victimhood over working towards overcoming said adversity. Even seen in in my guild, where there's quite a few people in their 20's and 30's who have never had anything bad happen to them and always fell on easy times constantly virtue signaling, and their behavior and mentality towards others in the game can be borderline or just plain toxic... but there tends to be an inherent lack of self-awareness, too, where they become what they admonish. Sometimes it feels like I'm dealing with 12 year olds when it comes to said players interacting with others. On the other hand, there are others in my guild who have had to grow up in actual poverty/hunger for most of their childhood, insanely dangerous living conditions growing up, or have had serious health issues or are partially/permanently disabled (or a combination of the above). These people tend to be insanely level headed and brush off the petty stuff, and are a lot more self aware and considerate towards others... not everyone's perfect, mind you, but the trend is there.

    Overall, what's really driving toxic behavior is that much of the WoW player base is shifting towards a newer generation that's lived in mostly peaceful/prosperous times and has been fostered by a society that embraces/praises mediocrity and victimhood. Parents can certainly influence this, but it all comes down to the individual in the end once they become an adult or leave their parents whether they actually grow up or not. In the end, the toxic behavior in WoW isn't likely going to go away (and may actually increase) as long as the social norms remain the same. Only way you 100% remove toxic behavior from WoW is to wait until no one is playing the game anymore, as you're asking people to resist their human nature without an impetus to do so.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    It's elitist to believe there is such a class as 'real WoW players', no you cannot claim that people left WoW because wow changed to much that is simply once more your personal bias dictating what you believe to be the reason people left.

    Believe what you want you're free to add citations to your claims.
    I mean we are arguing what came first the chicken or the egg... its alright to not reach consensus.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Anecdotally, my experience in WoW is that some of the least toxic people I've met in-game have been people who have actually experience true adversity and didn't claim victimhood over working towards overcoming said adversity. Even seen in in my guild, where there's quite a few people in their 20's and 30's who have never had anything bad happen to them and always fell on easy times constantly virtue signaling, and their behavior and mentality towards others in the game can be borderline or just plain toxic... but there tends to be an inherent lack of self-awareness, too, where they become what they admonish. Sometimes it feels like I'm dealing with 12 year olds when it comes to said players interacting with others. On the other hand, there are others in my guild who have had to grow up in actual poverty/hunger for most of their childhood, insanely dangerous living conditions growing up, or have had serious health issues or are partially/permanently disabled (or a combination of the above). These people tend to be insanely level headed and brush off the petty stuff, and are a lot more self aware and considerate towards others... not everyone's perfect, mind you, but the trend is there.

    Overall, what's really driving toxic behavior is that much of the WoW player base is shifting towards a newer generation that's lived in mostly peaceful/prosperous times and has been fostered by a society that embraces/praises mediocrity and victimhood.
    What you say also is true, but I think the "prosperity" created a situation where people are obsessed with belongings, be it irl ("omg I don't have the newest iphone yet") or in game (loot whoring etc.), people who grew up in true poverty (as: worrying how to pay the basic bills and afford food, not about newest model of iphone) or in sickness tend to be more appreciative of what they have while people who are typical "middle class" always look up what they "could have" creating the proverbial "first world problems". So we have toxicity in wow in a way where people leave dungeons mid way because the run is 2 minutes slower than what they expected and similar pettiness.

    Thing is, it's mostly middle class and above people who have the luxury to spend lots of free time gaming, while poor people catch second jobs and side jobs to make ends meet. So you will meet a lot of people who are spoiled by as you described, lack of hardships in life.

    On the other hand I think there's too much social acceptance for general leeching. Beggars, people who "borrow for forever to return" etc. I once heard a story about a guy in my hometown who was a professional beggar and collected so much money he built a house out of it. And people kept giving him free stuff without a question. In the same way in game there's too much acceptance towards players who beg for gold, free carries, etc. There's no work ethic where people would stand firm behind the belief you reap what you sow and actually ostracize leeches. The design of "world of casino craft" and shift from deterministic loot to rng loot also reinforced the belief it's about being "lucky" not about honing your skill and putting in the effort.

    The fact you can't trust a stranger to not be a freeloader created the "elitism" and all the addons like gearscore and r.io, because after too many players trying to scam their way in, good faith was lost. It's not just in pugs, it's the same in guilds. Guilds don't want low xp low geared applicants because among all applicants who swear on their pinky that they're willing to learn and put in the effort 9 out of 10 are just freeloaders that want to leech off some easy gear then will quit and "gearing them up" is a complete waste of time for the whole guild.

    Toxicity and hostility often stems not just from "being an asshole for the sake of it" but from the response to assholes and trying to protect yourself from them. It's hard to be nice and trusting if that niceness and trust was exploited too many times.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Once upon a time the friends you have were strangers to you.

    Blizzard encourages people to play together (not a strange concept for an MMO) and everyone who is toxic chooses to be toxic, it's not Blizzards fault.
    That blizzard allowed more toxicity by lowering the skill of its players is imho part of the problem ( and also I don't think the example you provided is a good one, to be honest. Simply because I happend to have fun with both friends and random players I was put with. I am just against players who don't want to learn and just care for the loot, and because of that ruin the game for other players who are looking for people who "at least" know their class and what they are queueing for, but this doesn't mean to be toxic. It's just something I don't like ).

    Back in time I remember me and my friends being noobs, but also willingful to learn and improve.

    What I see now, most of the time, is just people who spam content without knowing what they are doing.
    Regardless the content ( m 15+, hc/mythic raid, and so on ).

    However, as many other pointed out, ways to prevent frustration and, eventually, toxicity exist.
    So it's up to the player itself.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    "Classic will be a much happier experience for players because if you don't get into line, you will be blacklisted and harassed off the server." Yeah, that's a healthy social community.

    Even with all of that, Classic is socially not that different an experience than the other game. Assholes are everywhere, even on your realm. Be in a guild, have some friends. If you can't manage either of those there's plenty to do on your own.

    Be open to making friends but be strong enough to not put up with any shit either. People who behave badly are bad people.
    I was more referencing how it was in Vanilla, rather than how it is now in Classic/Retail. Back in vanilla, the internet and MMO's were still new enough for people not to default to asshole mode. It's only more recently with the rise of social media and people realising the anonymity that the internet provides that being an asshole is the default for so many. Look at Twitter for example, it's a cesspit of hate and abuse because people aren't tied to their real identities.

    That same attitude of "I'll never have any consequences for how I behave" is shared in gaming for the same reason. There's no consequences. Anyone who penalises people for their behaviour is just a Nazi suppressing free speech! (It's worrying how often that term is used and how wrong some people have the concept of free speech), but unfortunately that's the mob mentality that exists and any developer who goes above the others to penalise players to try and provide a nice community just gets dog piled by the angry masses. Hell, WoW is lenient as fuck with behaviour and just look how many people cry over just receiving a chat ban and how many people rally around them agreeing Blizz is Nazi.

    Unfortunately toxicity is a given with any online interaction these days and until a bunch of devs come together to really crack down on it, nothing will change as no single dev is going to risk their income being the matyr.

  19. #79
    how is this a new or worthwhile take to discuss?
    Riot pretty much spend millions on researching this and bottom line is every kind of solo queue/pug content is gonna be like this because people might be have bots.
    The only way you fix that if you make content unpuggable/requires communication

  20. #80
    Mythic plus does indeed create unhealthy environment because of it's intended "Roflstomp" design.

    Give the players permanent time walking option where you are scaled down to scraps so people can get a slap of reality instead of mindlessly zerging everything, and then blame/leave if the zerg fails to succeed.

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