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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I didn't mean to make personal attacks. When I said "you" or "your" I didn't mean it to be referring to you specifically but more directed towards "people". I'm sorry if it came across in the wrong way.
    Fair enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    People should just behave well and take responsibility for their own behavior because that is what we do in a civilized world. There should not be required an incentive to behave well.

    And even if someone don't want to take responsibility for their own bahavior, they can never blame Blizzard for it. Blizzard will never be responsible for how a random person behaves. If a person choose to verbally attack another player then that person is to blame for that behavor. It can never be Blizzard's fault.

    I cannot say: "YOU F*CKING NOOB LEARN TO PLAY!" to another player and then blame M+ for that behavior.
    Obviously its not blizzards fault for what people say, but it is their fault for making situations where people are more likely to say it.
    Imagine if m+ had no loot, no timer, no weekly, no achievement and people just did it for fun, do you think there would be the same amount of toxicity?
    If yes, then you are basically saying the toxic people in m+ are toxic in every other game and probably irl as well, because the environment doesn't matter, toxic be toxic.
    If no, then you admit that the environment does have an impact on how people act, which makes it indirectly blizzards fault, because they are the ones that created it.

    And while a lot of people do behave well, not everyone reacts the same way to getting poked with a stick, id rather have the poker be removed rather than the people that have a negative reaction to getting poked.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    id rather have the poker be removed rather than the people that have a negative reaction to getting poked.
    I guess this is where we disagree. I don't think Blizzard should limit their game design just because some people cannot handle being poked. They should not make the game less competitive just because some people cannot behave themselves when they get provoked (the poking stick). This happens in a competitive environment and some people cannot handle that. But that is no Blizzard's responsibility. My solution to this is to simply avoid those people. The way I do it is by getting to know the people who do behave nicely.

    When you join a PUG you have no control of what kind of people you choose to play with. But that is your choice to put yourself in that situation. Blizzard is not to blame if one of those people turn out to be toxic. And Blizzard should restrict their game design to keep that person from being toxic. It's not their job to make people behave civilized. What you can do is to be social and make sure you know who you play with. If you choose not to do that then it's your issue. Not Blizzard's.

    (when I say "you" I don't mean you specifically. It's meant as "you" in general. This is not a personal attack)
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-04-21 at 05:02 PM.

  3. #163
    Honestly, I tend to make my own groups (though this is helped by the fact I play a Tank generally, of course) and try to maintain a rather good attitude - and replace people that don't have a great attitude. Arguably the biggest barrier to this is M+ where someone might start acting up part-way through the run, which complicates things - but generally by asking people to make sure they'll stay if we don't make the timer, or otherwise just taking the reins when making my own raid and replacing people that're being overly obnoxious I feel like I tend to avoid 95% of the toxicity. I can't imagine playing a DPS and not really being able to make my own groups with ease.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    then you admit that the environment does have an impact on how people act, which makes it indirectly blizzards fault, because they are the ones that created it.
    I admit that the environment does impact how people act. But that is not the same as the environment being to blame for how people act. If someone makes a verbal attack in M+ then that person is 100 % to blame for that action no matter what. He might have been poked, but the action is still 100 % his responsibility.

    If people cant handle being in the environment then they should no be in it. And more importantly, you should avoid those people if they are in that environment. But nobody force them to be there and nobody force you to play with them.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-04-21 at 05:09 PM.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    Fair enough.


    Obviously its not blizzards fault for what people say, but it is their fault for making situations where people are more likely to say it.
    Imagine if m+ had no loot, no timer, no weekly, no achievement and people just did it for fun, do you think there would be the same amount of toxicity?
    If yes, then you are basically saying the toxic people in m+ are toxic in every other game and probably irl as well, because the environment doesn't matter, toxic be toxic.
    If no, then you admit that the environment does have an impact on how people act, which makes it indirectly blizzards fault, because they are the ones that created it.

    And while a lot of people do behave well, not everyone reacts the same way to getting poked with a stick, id rather have the poker be removed rather than the people that have a negative reaction to getting poked.
    There is a difference between Thing A having an impact on Thing B and Thing A being the cause of Thing B. You could recognize that if you weren't actively looking for ways to make blizzard a scapegoat and making excuses for people who choose to be toxic assholes in the game.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    but it is their fault for making situations where people are more likely to say it.
    But based on this logic Blizzard are only allowed to make extremely easy content with no risk of failure.

    Do you really believe that it's Blizzard's responsibility to keep people out of situations where they might behave toxic?
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-04-21 at 05:19 PM.

  7. #167
    Epic! Highelf's Avatar
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    Honestly, people need to grow some thicker skin. If you take personal what someone says on a game, over a monitor, most times not even about you personally, then leave the group and hit that LFR button again. Instead of being so weak in your own skin that something like that can ruin your experience. I've been in many environments like this from WC3, SC1, Counter Strike, etc and not once did someone saying something silly ruin my experience to the point where I label it as "toxic" and complain about it.

    Thinking that you'll never run in to people like that over a game that requires mass amounts of different people to play with you is incredibly naive, and then once it happens, you allow it to ruin your experience and think that it's "toxic" says more about you than them.
    “I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”
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  8. #168
    Bloodsail Admiral Alkizon's Avatar
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    So it all comes down to the same thing: idiotic mistakes push people to toxicity.
    The same mistake that being done in almost any of these topics. Don't confuse warm with soft. Toxicity is provoked by lack of direct need for friendship and mutual assistance. People have neither social/situational need for each other <A friend in need is a friend indeed>, nor need to assess consequences of their actions <Social cohesion/interdependence>.

    M+, again, as has already been said many times, is a small part of large system in which not only gigantic number of errors starting from dungeons' design particular and local direct interactions, but also organization of social interactions within world as a whole (which now isn’t equivalent to "server", and if we'll also remember about shards with phasing, everything even worse), as well as principle of progress system (which for a long time already has been for the most part as endless and almost uncontrolled process). All that auto/search engine and M+ lacked was impersonal ranking/rating and lo and behold! devs, without hindrance, allowed players to write it and successfully implement and now, within framework of current system, almost without chances of inventing a “vaccine”.
    Kaver
    choose to play with people they dont give a shit about.
    It’s not because people choose, but because game offers it them as fastest, easiest and most profitable solution of their problems. This is experience current game gives them (this doesn't solve by momentary intervention, process is long and must be constant).
    Kaver
    Do you really believe that it's Blizzard's responsibility to keep people out of situations where they might behave toxic?
    The point is not to allow or not to allow, but to organize adequate consequences in this regard. This is learning process. These are conditions for gaining experience and formation of certain behavior:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Well, I won't call it "mandatory" because there is still alternative and if this tank is really that bad, you will have to do all these manipulations with new tank search. Ie let's formulate it better this way: "that" game offers a polite solution as a more easy one - that's how it sounds better. And also this is mutual polite decision and tank will be interested to listen to all your instructions in order to not get into "black list" even if not for server, but at least for separate guild.

    That's how it's done. Simple and neat. Game doesn't forbid you to be an asshole, but it doesn't encourage, rather educates, makes penalty, and this is done through game collective, through community.
    and since there is no community (there is no mechanism to fight back), so no consequences.

    So... since we started for anonymity, so significant part of problem from "anonymity" turns into lack of adequate/healthy politeness' motivation (this is not coercion, you can do it differently, but easier... to do it right)
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2020-04-23 at 08:08 AM.
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  9. #169
    Pit Lord Advent's Avatar
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    I don't think I've ever seen this "community feeling" people talk about in reference to the older WoW from 10+ years ago, and I've been playing since TBC. Where the F was it when I started? In a cave somewhere? In Goldshire?

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    after playing classic for a few months i can tell you that the toxicity levels there are off the charts,i dont recall how it was in vanila i was like 16 when i started and i was a bit of an ass myself lol
    Yeah, I just feel like the gaming culture as a whole is just so far down this path that you're not going to get away from it. I only played one server in Vanilla, so it's somewhat anecdotal, but our server definitely had an understood code of ethics. You'd get shitbagged in trade if you ninja'd, completely ignored tactics, etc. Guilds talked as well.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    There is a difference between Thing A having an impact on Thing B and Thing A being the cause of Thing B. You could recognize that if you weren't actively looking for ways to make blizzard a scapegoat and making excuses for people who choose to be toxic assholes in the game.
    Blizzard does thing>people react to thing , if thing didn't exist, people wouldn't react to thing, meaning blizzzard is also to blame.
    Not quite sure how i benefit from any of that, considering i'm in a guild and don't have any assholes around me, im just looking at it objectively, and not through some moral highground lens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But based on this logic Blizzard are only allowed to make extremely easy content with no risk of failure.

    Do you really believe that it's Blizzard's responsibility to keep people out of situations where they might behave toxic?
    What are you on about, what does difficulty have to do with anything? Just look at lfr, easiest content imaginable, and still just as toxic, if not more.

    Not keep people out, but rather avoid creating those situations in the first place, or make things have consequences like in the real world, nice people might not need those consequences but assholes do, and since we cant get rid of assholes, the only solution is to fix them, either with consequences or not putting them in asshole inducing situations.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I admit that the environment does impact how people act. But that is not the same as the environment being to blame for how people act. If someone makes a verbal attack in M+ then that person is 100 % to blame for that action no matter what. He might have been poked, but the action is still 100 % his responsibility.

    If people cant handle being in the environment then they should no be in it. And more importantly, you should avoid those people if they are in that environment. But nobody force them to be there and nobody force you to play with them.
    The following can both be true at the same time:

    1. If you are a jerk, it's your fault.
    2. If a piece of content or a system is filled with jerks, it's the fault of the design of the system.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    IMO, the actual toxicity comes from anonymity.

    How would we engage with each other if everyone knew our IRL names and addresses? I know half the people who name call would never do it in person.

    This is just the way it is.
    It was pretty different in classic, before server transfers, name change and instant near-maxlevel-boosts for money were a thing. If you fucked up, you fucked up and nobody would invite you. No IRL names and addresses needed for that.

  14. #174
    I am Murloc! Saninicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    Just another thing that WoW did better when it was just you and the people on your server. I played on a medium to low pop server in early WoW and if you were a massive dick to people then people would know and not invite you

    If you played on off peak server times. Getting a group was NOT fun. More so if you played on a low pop or faction imagined realm like lightbringer. I don't miss those days one bit.

  15. #175
    The Patient Sanstos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    It was pretty different in classic, before server transfers, name change and instant near-maxlevel-boosts for money were a thing. If you fucked up, you fucked up and nobody would invite you. No IRL names and addresses needed for that.
    "back in my day...." ??

    Shits over dude. We are here, now.

  16. #176
    Epic! Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    after playing classic for a few months i can tell you that the toxicity levels there are off the charts,i dont recall how it was in vanila i was like 16 when i started and i was a bit of an ass myself lol
    You must be REALLY super hyper sensitive then. Just because not everyone acts like an episode of Teletubbies dones't mean it's toxic. grow up and have some confidence in yourself and realize you're not always going to have your mom there to tell you good job and bake you your favorite pie if something doesn't happen the way you think it should.
    “I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”
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  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    this is extremly backwards in my experience,i have with almost 100% accuracy found that the people who are or think they are on a ''high skill level'' act more toxic in pugs,this is the reason why i completly stoped using raider io when looking for a m+ pug to fill a group,the high score guys are asshats like clockwork if ANYTHING goes wrong,and join groups clearly listed as ''weekly'',now i just chose based on ilvl and very rarerly had problems
    No, you just confirmed that this is the case with what you said.

    If you are not up to their skill level, of course people are going to be pissed when you screw up with basic things everyone should know.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinro View Post
    No, you just confirmed that this is the case with what you said.

    If you are not up to their skill level, of course people are going to be pissed when you screw up with basic things everyone should know.
    yeah,thats exactly my point lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Highelf View Post
    You must be REALLY super hyper sensitive then. Just because not everyone acts like an episode of Teletubbies dones't mean it's toxic. grow up and have some confidence in yourself and realize you're not always going to have your mom there to tell you good job and bake you your favorite pie if something doesn't happen the way you think it should.
    im just comparing it to retail experience,toxic people dont rly bother me

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    "back in my day...." ??

    Shits over dude. We are here, now.
    Please read the context of the post and don't do random interpretations.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    I agree partly. It's MOSTLY our own fault. Though removing yourself from it is just to flee, and do not solve anything but your own needs.

    You also have to remember that most of the time, there's one person in the group that comes out as toxic first. Thats 20% in a group of five and even lower in a group of more. Most of the time the other poeople are pretty nice but it doesn't show, only the person spewing toxicity is noticed and that suffecated the atmosphere completely. So what can we do? Remove the toxic person? Well yes, but as some content (looking at you, mythic+) are constructed, you won't be able to replace that person. The group either suck it up and move on or disband.

    I'm the kind of person who enjoy puging, you meet so many different people and as long as you show a friendly, understanding and chill attitude the toxicity have a hard time getting through. It does, sometimes but most of the times a showing of chill attitude and understanding spark a more constructive discussion which ends up in the players doing better and over all having a better experience while learning a thing or two.

    I think at least 60-70% of my pugs have been a great experience where everyone had a decent time.

    How do we change this? It's by steping in, showing that niceness is the dominant way and that toxicity does not have a place in our groups. People tend to adjust to the most accepted behaviour so we make it not about toxicity but friendliness.

    TL;DR: it starts with you. Be nice
    Haven’t gotten through the whole thread so sorry if I’m parroting a later response, but you are spot on with the assessment that it starts with you, the individual, first.

    Thanks to the XP buff I’ve been collecting up quite the alt army, and as such, have spent a lot of time in lower level LFG content. Regardless of the role selected, it always seems to help by establishing a tone early. What I mean, for example, can be seen in just one group I ran today before work. Gnomer with a fairly competent healer (me as tank) and some newbie dps (based on play style). I start the group off immediately in chat greeting everyone and explaining that we will be jumping off the first level and to use the parachute. One guy was confused, two other members jumped in to politely help him. This opened up his comfort, he asked a few more questions, and everyone participated in polite convo while we cleared.

    Had I not started talking, the poor guy with the parachute issue probably leaves, with or without some shit slung his way as a parting gift.

    As the quoted poster stated. It starts with you.

    Another point, there is currently zero punishment for leaving a m+ key. This part is on Blizzard, as their refusal to punish people who desert their teams is a large oversight. I think their excuse would be “but it’s manually formed groups” and all that. This is a conscious choice by Blizzard to feign ignorance. The LFG feature is alive and well in the m+ scene. Them pretending for a moment that we have all the tools needed to vet our groups to make sure no one rage quits or trolls the group ruining the key exist is ridiculous. If I can get a deserter rebuff for leaving pleb lowbie dungeons or random bgs, joke content as far as challenge goes, then why at the most difficult level of small group content is there no way to corral this behavior outside of the very personal level ignoring them allows?

    Overall, social interaction in game can be very positive, and I’ve had way more positive experiences than negative. But man... knowing that toxic asshats can drop keys with zero backlash irks me just a tad.

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