Truth Behind the Toxic Environment in WoW.

[meheez]

so its ok to be toxic with strangers or what?

toxic nerds need to be slapped but who cares, there are more interesting things in life

[Laughingjack]

I was talking about that in relation to how MMO's of old used to work and why it would not work any more on a large scale today, a lot of us were teens back than now we are working adults with obligations.

Old mmo's were structured so that you needed to be online at specific times or you could do nothing, there wasn't any meaningful small scale content, there were even world bosses on very long timers, Wow did a bit better in having instanced raids but other games also had instanced raids on specific spawn timers, you had people camping sites. You had to be part of a large guild, alliance of raidbots channels.

That am i saying would no longer work to this day, it was more a need of necessity to be nice and even that wasn't always the case there were plenty of toxic groups out there and some of them even were in charge. In any case i would not want to sacrifice the QoL changes for the sake of a 'maybe' better community.

I never understand this logic. People change but not by such a degree. To claim otherwise is to claim that no one would want to watch the old star wars movies they love the new ones!

Some people just demanded a product change to suit their own interests to the determinant of the majority. I can agree on some aspects getting better over time ( I would argue world bosses are a failed design) but to pretend there has been some monumental shift is folly. WoW changed more then its audience did. It is how it lost most of it.

[Acidbaron]

I never understand this logic. People change but not by such a degree. To claim otherwise is to claim that no one would want to watch the old star wars movies they love the new ones!

Some people just demanded a product change to suit their own interests to the determinant of the majority. I can agree on some aspects getting better over time ( I would argue world bosses are a failed design) but to pretend there has been some monumental shift is folly. WoW changed more then its audience did. It is how it lost most of it.

Movies are not an interactive media experience so that comparison does not really hold up.

People do change as the gaming landscape has also changed, before our choices of online gaming were limited. Don't see at this a change of personalities however but more as options became plentiful what we wanted out of gaming also changed. In the early days there were a few mmo's and a small range of shooters, some multiplayer online took place in diablo and there might have been some RTS but not much else.

So now you have a whole range of games competiting for our attention and a lot of them that are successful are games playable in shorter sessions, things that range from 30 minutes to an hour, while on after raiding is 3,5 hours that's quite the investment. Now add in the preparations that were needed back in the day and the time needed is even longer for a single play session.

That's why WoW classic also initially saw a large surge but it has also died down, i am not questioning there is a demand for that format but i personally don't believe this sense of community was lost due to QoL changes, WoW has obviously constantly been changing as that's what a game must do to remain relevant if we had 10 years of clone of expansion after clone of expansion it would have never last as long, Blizzard has always tried to copy what worked elsewhere and port it back in their game.

I am saying that this community and sense of community would have been seeing the same 'loss' whether the game stayed true to its original vision or not and yes i do believe there has been a shift in gaming because the market is far larger and far more diverse now than it was when mmo's were new.

[potis]

Well obviously, forcing players to do unfun content to fill their daily / weekly bucket of chores will create frustration and even more so when that content has to be done in a group. In the same aspect a lot of people are frustrated with the visions (there was recently a thread "visions can go f*ck themselves") but since you can do it solo you'll vent frustration on the forums or in your empty room rather than at other players.

And the forced chores concept was recycled nearly every expansion because if there weren't ones, or were minimal, people cried they "have nothing to do" and they run laps around main city or idle in garrison etc.

But it wasnt the frustration of the content, the people that want their char to be up to par or decent, will do the content anyway, as example people farming every single world quest at the start of the expansion for like 2 months.

Its who you are doing it with that causes the problems, its like telling a Phd mathematician that he isnt allowed to help the 12th grader with 2+2=X, whats X and he cant leave the room until the 12th grader gets it right, and you wonder how the fuck is the 12th grader not able to do this in a timely manner and you actually have to wait more than half a second for such a fucking simple thing, this is how LFR feels to anyone half-competent to the game.

The people wanting a relevant char, or the tryharders that simply farm everything/play a lot, will do so either way cause its integrated inside the way they play, no matter how boring or frustrating that content is, if its required to be done.

[Trend]

One thing that has to be said though is that this does not excuse the toxicity some people display and Blizzard's inability to deal with it properly. As much as I agree that not pugging saves you from toxic players for the most part, you shouldn't have to find closed communities not to be constantly shat on. There's a lot that can be done to punish those people that Blizzard is not doing, for whatever reason.

What are you talking about in terms of what kind of players need to be punished and what do you think Blizzard can and should be doing? Not saying you're wrong, I just haven't seen some problem beyond the general "yeah people can be assholes" in my 15 years of playing. And I am very wary of reporting systems with stiff penalties because those are often used as a form of harassment.

[Laughingjack]

Movies are not an interactive media experience so that comparison does not really hold up.

People do change as the gaming landscape has also changed, before our choices of online gaming were limited. Don't see at this a change of personalities however but more as options became plentiful what we wanted out of gaming also changed. In the early days there were a few mmo's and a small range of shooters, some multiplayer online took place in diablo and there might have been some RTS but not much else.

So now you have a whole range of games competiting for our attention and a lot of them that are successful are games playable in shorter sessions, things that range from 30 minutes to an hour, while on after raiding is 3,5 hours that's quite the investment. Now add in the preparations that were needed back in the day and the time needed is even longer for a single play session.

That's why WoW classic also initially saw a large surge but it has also died down, i am not questioning there is a demand for that format but i personally don't believe this sense of community was lost due to QoL changes, WoW has obviously constantly been changing as that's what a game must do to remain relevant if we had 10 years of clone of expansion after clone of expansion it would have never last as long, Blizzard has always tried to copy what worked elsewhere and port it back in their game.

I am saying that this community and sense of community would have been seeing the same 'loss' whether the game stayed true to its original vision or not and yes i do believe there has been a shift in gaming because the market is far larger and far more diverse now than it was when mmo's were new.

The world has changed less then you believe...

If anything the market is more limited now then before. Games have become for the most part a dull slog through micro transaction ridden garbage. I would go so far to say that games like WoW had MORE competition during their release then they experience currently. It just over time they shifted from making a game their audience enjoyed and trying to make a game that everyone enjoys and that is always doomed to fail.

[Kaver]

so its ok to be toxic with strangers or what?

It's definitely not okay. It's just the sad reality.

And we definitely also see it in other games like LoL and CS Go.

[Acidbaron]

The world has changed less then you believe...

If anything the market is more limited now then before. Games have become for the most part a dull slog through micro transaction ridden garbage. I would go so far to say that games like WoW had MORE competition during their release then they experience currently. It just over time they shifted from making a game their audience enjoyed and trying to make a game that everyone enjoys and that is always doomed to fail.

You are limited by your preference in games not actually physically limited in the games available, which was the case before. Games like WoW did not have more competition only from within the MMO genre that was growing still, it no longer is growing and has over been over taken by other online game formats.

If you disagree with this you may look at how many people used to play MMO's followed by the rise of MOBA's and later the rise of Battle Royale games.

I don't buy into this whole "real WoW player" argument either, it comes across elitist and not grounded in reality as WoW has always attracted different kind of gamers.

[Sunderella]

This must be a wow only thing because I have been playing FFXIV the last months and I still have to find the first toxic person when pugging. I have done the trials, dungeons and other group based content up to level 60 and no matter how many wipes nobody lost his shit about it.

[Laughingjack]

You are limited by your preference in games not actually physically limited in the games available, which was the case before. Games like WoW did not have more competition only from within the MMO genre that was growing still, it no longer is growing and has over been over taken by other online game formats.

If you disagree with this you may look at how many people used to play MMO's followed by the rise of MOBA's and later the rise of Battle Royale games.

I don't buy into this whole "real WoW player" argument either, it comes across elitist and not grounded in reality as WoW has always attracted different kind of gamers.

It is elitist a game should cater to the group that enjoys it... if it doesn't want to it should create a new game something blizzard hasn't had much success with beyond hs.

Games are always limited by preference and there hasn't been many ground breaking new genres. It is a cop out to say the markets drastically changed when they really haven't. I won't pretend wow would of stayed so large but A LOT of people have quit wow over the years from its neck breaking switch from a rpg with a normal progression system to crazy wacky loot fun time land.

[Advent]

How do you do when you look for a guild? What do you want from a guild?
I started playing WoW again at the end of 8.1, and talked to a work-colleague
who I found out played wow, he invited me to his guild who I healed raids for
until I got asked to join a more progressed guild on a higher pop-realm and
that is where I am now.

I decided a while ago that I wanted to play alliance and made a hunter on my old main-realm, looked at wowprogress and
found a guild I recognized people in from when way back when I used to play there, whispered an officer and asked if they
accepted socials, and since then I've raided and done m+ with them. Nice people.

You're very fortunate that you knew someone IRL who played. I don't. Everyone I once knew quit the game between 5 and 10 years ago.

I used to look through the official forums, and my realm forums for guilds for stuff like Mythic+ and the like. What I find most often are instead mythic raiding guilds which have requirements and expectations far beyond what I'm willing to meet. Or half-dead communities that no one talks in, or guilds with cliques of 4 or 5 players who aren't interested in engaging with anyone outside their circle. All this is fine, but it's like being the little brother trying to hang out with big brother's friends. He doesn't want you there, they don't want you there, but mom said so and everyone your age is a thousand miles away so you're left twirling a stick in the sand while everyone else has fun.

[Magistrate]

This website's community is toxic.

[Kaver]

This website's community is toxic.

True. But this is website is also strangers discussing on the internet.

[Advent]

This must be a wow only thing because I have been playing FFXIV the last months and I still have to find the first toxic person when pugging. I have done the trials, dungeons and other group based content up to level 60 and no matter how many wipes nobody lost his shit about it.

Wait till you get into EX trials and savage, you'll see a whole new world of rage in that game.

[Acidbaron]

It is elitist a game should cater to the group that enjoys it... if it doesn't want to it should create a new game something blizzard hasn't had much success with beyond hs.

Games are always limited by preference and there hasn't been many ground breaking new genres. It is a cop out to say the markets drastically changed when they really haven't. I won't pretend wow would of stayed so large but A LOT of people have quit wow over the years from its neck breaking switch from a rpg with a normal progression system to crazy wacky loot fun time land.

It's elitist to believe there is such a class as 'real WoW players', no you cannot claim that people left WoW because wow changed to much that is simply once more your personal bias dictating what you believe to be the reason people left.

Believe what you want you're free to add citations to your claims.

[Kaver]

I used to look through the official forums, and my realm forums for guilds for stuff like Mythic+ and the like. What I find most often are instead mythic raiding guilds which have requirements and expectations far beyond what I'm willing to meet.

Joining a mythic raiding guild as a "social" would be good option for the situation you describe. You don't have to meet the tough requirements or follow the raid schedule and you can still take part in M+ runs with your guildies.

[Advent]

Joining a mythic raiding guild as a "social" would be good for you. You don't have to meet the requirement or follow the raid schedule and you can still take part in M+ runs with your guildies.

It's a nice idea, but I've seen firsthand what happens in places like that. Hell, I was part of it. When raid ends and ppl want to do M+, they pull from other raiders on the team, not the socials. Social members were there to fill guild chat with random conversation. They weren't on the raid team for a reason, and not necessarily because they didn't want to, or couldn't.

[Kaver]

It's a nice idea, but I've seen firsthand what happens in places like that. Hell, I was part of it. When raid ends and ppl want to do M+, they pull from other raiders on the team, not the socials. Social members were there to fill guild chat with random conversation. They weren't on the raid team for a reason, and not necessarily because they didn't want to, or couldn't.

The guild I'm in is definitely not like that. I'm on the raid team, but the people I usually run M+ with are "socials" in the guild. You just need to take a little bit of initiative and of course find people on the same skill-level as you. You of course cant expect to play with people who push +20 keys if you only do +5 yourself

[fwc577]

And PUG'ing is the main problem. A lot of people become very toxic when they play with strangers who they don't care about at all. Especially when it happens on the internet. You almost never see the same level of toxicity in a guild group or friend group that you see in a group of complete strangers. Sure it happens, but it's much less frequent.

Oh boy, you were this | | close.

Pugging existed back in the day before group finder.

The problem is the lack of reputation surrounding it. Before we could join a group and hop to any server, you were limited to grouping with people in your community. That meant you tried harder and were more respectful. If you became known to be a shit or ninja looter, you could get yourself blacklisted on a server level and find it very difficult to continue your WoW experience. Good players would no longer join your groups. You became shunned and your only choice was to hope to try for a name change and not be noticed or hope for a server transfer and have your bullshit not follow you across servers.

Now that we don't have that accountability, people act like total assholes because they can.

[Advent]

The guild I'm in is definitely not like that. I'm on the raid team, but the people I usually run M+ with are "socials" in the guild. You just need to take a little bit of initiative and of course find people on the same skill-level as you. You of course cant expect to play with people who push +20 keys if you only do +5 yourself

Of course not. Very unlikely to find people who only do my key level in organized guilds though. Most of the ones I've inquired about run far above 6 and 7. So I pug.