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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    Sorry but when servers weren't combined and there was no LFD/LFR, people were incredibly less toxic. Maybe it was just as much society as game mechanics. But I think a bit part of it was the communities that were built and people really were unaccepting of jackasses. You could make a name for yourself, good or bad. Just two cents.
    after playing classic for a few months i can tell you that the toxicity levels there are off the charts,i dont recall how it was in vanila i was like 16 when i started and i was a bit of an ass myself lol

  2. #142
    Banned CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Toxicity in video games (like WoW) mainly occurs between strangers. Toxic environment most commonly involve people who don't care about each other at all.

    Most of the threads in here about toxic behavior have one thing in common: They are all based on experiences from PUG'ing.

    And PUG'ing is the main problem. A lot of people become very toxic when they play with strangers who they don't care about at all. Especially when it happens on the internet. You almost never see the same level of toxicity in a guild group or friend group that you see in a group of complete strangers. Sure it happens, but it's much less frequent.

    A lot of people like to blame the content for the toxicity. "M+ is to blame for toxic behavior" and so on.. But the content is not to blame for people's toxic behavior. When you take 5 people who don't give a sh*t about each other and put them in a group, then the risk of toxic behavior will increase significantly.

    The toxic behavior exists because you choose to spend time with people who don't give a damn about you. Instead of making friends and playing with these friends, you choose to play with strangers all the time. And many of these strangers don't care about you or your well-being. They see you as nothing more than a tool to get the loot. They see you as another NPC in the game instead of a human being. And if you make the smallest mistake then hell breaks loose. It's funny how much peoples behavior change once they use discord and actually talk with each other. I never heard anyone on discord say "Oh your f*cking noob, learn to play!". It mostly happens when people are typing behind their keyboards.

    Most of the toxic environments in WoW are created by complete strangers playing together. You cant just blame the content for that. Do yourself a favor and remove yourself from these environments. Find a good guild and make some friends to play with and your own experience in the game will most likely improve.
    Everything you said is basically true. However, if you pug and no one makes mistakes, there is zero toxicity. The source of toxicity is not really pugging, it's people making mistakes. Like you said it's true that if people know each other or at least use discord they are much more tolerant of mistakes they would typically get mad about. So it all comes down to the same thing: idiotic mistakes push people to toxicity.

    The question then becomes this: should everyone be a Mother Theresa and take everyone by the hands with a smile on their face or should we not tolerate mistakes that shouldn't happen in extremely easy content that is over a year old?
    People are not toxic at the beginning of an xpack when we're all learning the dungeons, even in pugs, so this again proves that pugging is not the source of toxicity.

    If people would simply stop sucking, stop body pulling shit as if they played with their monitor turned off, stop moving as if they used click to move with their nose on a laptop touchpad, there would be no toxicity.

    Why do people suck at this easy game? What are these people gonna do in real life? They are never gonna be allowed to drive a car because driving is harder than this game. They are gonna cause accidents and kill people. As a species we should not tolerate mediocrity, we should point it out and the guilty party should welcome the criticism of others in order to better themselves and it should not be seen as toxicity.

    Now if we're talking about randomly throwing insults out of nowhere then yeah sure that's bad, but the vast majority of "toxicity" that I see is nowhere near that, it's always someone saying something to a party member who just did something stupid as fuck that NO ONE should do at this point in the game.

    I get it if people want a safe space where everybody is nice to them so they never feel like they failed, but that's literally a regressive mentality that is feeding today's gaming industry into making things extremely easy and never forcing players to improve like they used to in older games.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    What about people start taking responsibility for their own behavior and actions. Blizzard are not to blame for peoples toxicity and they should not be restricted in their game design just because some people are extremely uncivilized. M+ doesn't force anyone to behave badly towards other people. And nobody forces you to play with strangers who don't care about you. Your actions are your responsibility.. Not Blizzard's.
    Yes they should be blamed, not entirely, but mostly, they are the ones that created the toxic environments...
    And why exactly would they ''take responsibility'' when there are no consequences?
    And before you say something as stupid as ''ban them'' or along those lines, yes you can ban the worst of the worst, but that wont change the fact that the toxic environment will continue convert more and more normal people into toxic ones given enough time in the cesspool.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Everything you said is basically true. However, if you pug and no one makes mistakes, there is zero toxicity. The source of toxicity is not really pugging, it's people making mistakes. Like you said it's true that if people know each other or at least use discord they are much more tolerant of mistakes they would typically get mad about. So it all comes down to the same thing: idiotic mistakes push people to toxicity.

    The question then becomes this: should everyone be a Mother Theresa and take everyone by the hands with a smile on their face or should we not tolerate mistakes that shouldn't happen in extremely easy content that is over a year old?
    People are not toxic at the beginning of an xpack when we're all learning the dungeons, even in pugs, so this again proves that pugging is not the source of toxicity.

    If people would simply stop sucking, stop body pulling shit as if they played with their monitor turned off, stop moving as if they used click to move with their nose on a laptop touchpad, there would be no toxicity.

    Why do people suck at this easy game? What are these people gonna do in real life? They are never gonna be allowed to drive a car because driving is harder than this game. They are gonna cause accidents and kill people. As a species we should not tolerate mediocrity, we should point it out and the guilty party should welcome the criticism of others in order to better themselves and it should not be seen as toxicity.

    Now if we're talking about randomly throwing insults out of nowhere then yeah sure that's bad, but the vast majority of "toxicity" that I see is nowhere near that, it's always someone saying something to a party member who just did something stupid as fuck that NO ONE should do at this point in the game.

    I get it if people want a safe space where everybody is nice to them so they never feel like they failed, but that's literally a regressive mentality that is feeding today's gaming industry into making things extremely easy and never forcing players to improve like they used to in older games.
    I never said pugging = toxicity. I just said that the majority of toxicity happens in pugs. The majority of toxicity happens because people choose to play with people they dont give a shit about. Anti-social behavior is what brings toxicity.

    If people actually made a little bit of social effort then the amount of toxicity would be reduce greatly. How many players in WoW do you think have under 5 people on their friend list? I think it's a lot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    And why exactly would they ''take responsibility'' when there are no consequences?
    This right here is the mindset of the toxic person. Do you really need consequences in order to take responsibility for your own behavior? Do you really need consequences in order to behave like a decent human being? Haven't your parents taught you any values and how to treat other people nicely.

    Blizzard are not to blame for people bad behavior. The "environment" they create are not to blame for peoples bad behavior. You cannot behave like an idiot and then blame the environment.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-04-21 at 03:15 PM.

  5. #145
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I never said pugging = toxicity. I just said that the majority of toxicity happens in pugs. The majority of toxicity happens because people choose to play with people they dont give a shit about. Anti-social behavior is what brings toxicity.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This right here is the mindset of the toxic person. Do you really need consequences in order to behave like a decent human being? Haven't you parents taught you any values and how to treat other people nicely.

    Blizzard are not to blame for people bad behavior. The "environment" they create are not to blame for peoples bad behavior. You cannot behave like an idiot and then blame then environment.
    I played in a raid with people I didn't give a shit about years ago, should we all go back to being a cog in a wheel with raids again? Is that what's going to "lead us to the light"?

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    the toxic environment will continue convert more and more normal people into toxic ones given enough time in the cesspool.
    What?! Normal people are not converted into toxic ones because of the environment they are in. This is completely crazy. Start taking responsibility for your own behavior.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    I played in a raid with people I didn't give a shit about years ago
    That's your problem mate. Don't put that on me or other people. If you spend time raiding with the same people for a long time and then still don't give a shit about them, then that's a "you-problem".

    I take responsibility for my own situation and actively avoid people like you. How do I do that? By getting to know the people I play with.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-04-21 at 03:22 PM.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post

    This right here is the mindset of the toxic person. Do you really need consequences in order to take responsibility for your own behavior? Do you really need consequences in order to behave like a decent human being? Haven't your parents taught you any values and how to treat other people nicely.

    Blizzard are not to blame for people bad behavior. The "environment" they create are not to blame for peoples bad behavior. You cannot behave like an idiot and then blame the environment.
    I guess your parents also thought you to make personal attacks when you have no arguments, what a nice guy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    What?! Normal people are not converted into toxic ones because of the environment they are in. This is completely crazy. Start taking responsibility for your own behavior.
    Go ahead and tell me then why people should take responsibility, without including ''because my parents said so''.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    I guess your parents also thought you to make personal attacks when you have no arguments, what a nice guy!
    I didn't mean to make personal attacks. When I said "you" or "your" I didn't mean it to be referring to you specifically but more directed towards "people". I'm sorry if it came across in the wrong way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    Go ahead and tell me then why people should take responsibility, without including ''because my parents said so''.
    People should just behave well and take responsibility for their own behavior because that is what we do in a civilized world. There should not be required an incentive to behave well.

    And even if someone don't want to take responsibility for their own bahavior, they can never blame Blizzard for it. Blizzard will never be responsible for how a random person behaves. If a person choose to verbally attack another player then that person is to blame for that behavor. It can never be Blizzard's fault.

    I cannot say: "YOU F*CKING NOOB LEARN TO PLAY!" to another player and then blame M+ for that behavior.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-04-21 at 03:35 PM.

  9. #149
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    That's your problem mate. Don't put that on me or other people. If you spend time raiding with the same people for a long time and then still don't give a shit about them, then that's a "you-problem".

    I take responsibility for my own situation and actively avoid people like you. How do I do that? By getting to know the people I play with.
    My point was that playing for a long time with people doesn't mean you're going to grow to know or like them. I worked alongside people I didn't like for a long time, that's what guilds felt like. Guilds form little cliques within themselves often in my experience, and toxicity isn't magically absent from those at all.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    My point was that playing for a long time with people doesn't mean you're going to grow to know or like them. I worked alongside people I didn't like for a long time, that's what guilds felt like. Guilds form little cliques within themselves often in my experience, and toxicity isn't magically absent from those at all.
    I completely agree. And I never said Guilds are free of toxicity. But the question is how often do the toxicity happen and to what degree. And the level of toxicity you see in pug groups you most likely wont see in Guilds. In PUGs people go on rampages and verbally attack other players based on the smallest mistake. And it happens very often. This will most likely not happen if you run with guildies or friends.

    Also, in guilds there will of course be people you like more than others. I will gladly admit that there are people in the guild I'm in that I really dislike. But I also take responsibility for my own situation and actively avoid those people as much as possible. I choose to play M+ with the guildies that I enjoy spending time with.

    The problem with PUGs is that you have no control over what people you're playing with. But that is your responsibility. You put yourself in that situation. You chose to play with strangers and you chose to take the risk of being grouped up with a toxic person. You have the option to avoid the toxic people but it requires you to be social and find the nice people. No matter what, Blizzard is not to blame for who you choose to group up with.

    (when I say "you" I don't mean you specifically. It's meant as "you" in general. This is not a personal attack)
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-04-21 at 04:13 PM.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I didn't mean to make personal attacks. When I said "you" or "your" I didn't mean it to be referring to you specifically but more directed towards "people". I'm sorry if it came across in the wrong way.
    Fair enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    People should just behave well and take responsibility for their own behavior because that is what we do in a civilized world. There should not be required an incentive to behave well.

    And even if someone don't want to take responsibility for their own bahavior, they can never blame Blizzard for it. Blizzard will never be responsible for how a random person behaves. If a person choose to verbally attack another player then that person is to blame for that behavor. It can never be Blizzard's fault.

    I cannot say: "YOU F*CKING NOOB LEARN TO PLAY!" to another player and then blame M+ for that behavior.
    Obviously its not blizzards fault for what people say, but it is their fault for making situations where people are more likely to say it.
    Imagine if m+ had no loot, no timer, no weekly, no achievement and people just did it for fun, do you think there would be the same amount of toxicity?
    If yes, then you are basically saying the toxic people in m+ are toxic in every other game and probably irl as well, because the environment doesn't matter, toxic be toxic.
    If no, then you admit that the environment does have an impact on how people act, which makes it indirectly blizzards fault, because they are the ones that created it.

    And while a lot of people do behave well, not everyone reacts the same way to getting poked with a stick, id rather have the poker be removed rather than the people that have a negative reaction to getting poked.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    id rather have the poker be removed rather than the people that have a negative reaction to getting poked.
    I guess this is where we disagree. I don't think Blizzard should limit their game design just because some people cannot handle being poked. They should not make the game less competitive just because some people cannot behave themselves when they get provoked (the poking stick). This happens in a competitive environment and some people cannot handle that. But that is no Blizzard's responsibility. My solution to this is to simply avoid those people. The way I do it is by getting to know the people who do behave nicely.

    When you join a PUG you have no control of what kind of people you choose to play with. But that is your choice to put yourself in that situation. Blizzard is not to blame if one of those people turn out to be toxic. And Blizzard should restrict their game design to keep that person from being toxic. It's not their job to make people behave civilized. What you can do is to be social and make sure you know who you play with. If you choose not to do that then it's your issue. Not Blizzard's.

    (when I say "you" I don't mean you specifically. It's meant as "you" in general. This is not a personal attack)
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-04-21 at 05:02 PM.

  13. #153
    Honestly, I tend to make my own groups (though this is helped by the fact I play a Tank generally, of course) and try to maintain a rather good attitude - and replace people that don't have a great attitude. Arguably the biggest barrier to this is M+ where someone might start acting up part-way through the run, which complicates things - but generally by asking people to make sure they'll stay if we don't make the timer, or otherwise just taking the reins when making my own raid and replacing people that're being overly obnoxious I feel like I tend to avoid 95% of the toxicity. I can't imagine playing a DPS and not really being able to make my own groups with ease.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    then you admit that the environment does have an impact on how people act, which makes it indirectly blizzards fault, because they are the ones that created it.
    I admit that the environment does impact how people act. But that is not the same as the environment being to blame for how people act. If someone makes a verbal attack in M+ then that person is 100 % to blame for that action no matter what. He might have been poked, but the action is still 100 % his responsibility.

    If people cant handle being in the environment then they should no be in it. And more importantly, you should avoid those people if they are in that environment. But nobody force them to be there and nobody force you to play with them.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-04-21 at 05:09 PM.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    Fair enough.


    Obviously its not blizzards fault for what people say, but it is their fault for making situations where people are more likely to say it.
    Imagine if m+ had no loot, no timer, no weekly, no achievement and people just did it for fun, do you think there would be the same amount of toxicity?
    If yes, then you are basically saying the toxic people in m+ are toxic in every other game and probably irl as well, because the environment doesn't matter, toxic be toxic.
    If no, then you admit that the environment does have an impact on how people act, which makes it indirectly blizzards fault, because they are the ones that created it.

    And while a lot of people do behave well, not everyone reacts the same way to getting poked with a stick, id rather have the poker be removed rather than the people that have a negative reaction to getting poked.
    There is a difference between Thing A having an impact on Thing B and Thing A being the cause of Thing B. You could recognize that if you weren't actively looking for ways to make blizzard a scapegoat and making excuses for people who choose to be toxic assholes in the game.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    but it is their fault for making situations where people are more likely to say it.
    But based on this logic Blizzard are only allowed to make extremely easy content with no risk of failure.

    Do you really believe that it's Blizzard's responsibility to keep people out of situations where they might behave toxic?
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-04-21 at 05:19 PM.

  17. #157
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    Honestly, people need to grow some thicker skin. If you take personal what someone says on a game, over a monitor, most times not even about you personally, then leave the group and hit that LFR button again. Instead of being so weak in your own skin that something like that can ruin your experience. I've been in many environments like this from WC3, SC1, Counter Strike, etc and not once did someone saying something silly ruin my experience to the point where I label it as "toxic" and complain about it.

    Thinking that you'll never run in to people like that over a game that requires mass amounts of different people to play with you is incredibly naive, and then once it happens, you allow it to ruin your experience and think that it's "toxic" says more about you than them.
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  18. #158
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    So it all comes down to the same thing: idiotic mistakes push people to toxicity.
    The same mistake that being done in almost any of these topics. Don't confuse warm with soft. Toxicity is provoked by lack of direct need for friendship and mutual assistance. People have neither social/situational need for each other <A friend in need is a friend indeed>, nor need to assess consequences of their actions <Social cohesion/interdependence>.

    M+, again, as has already been said many times, is a small part of large system in which not only gigantic number of errors starting from dungeons' design particular and local direct interactions, but also organization of social interactions within world as a whole (which now isn’t equivalent to "server", and if we'll also remember about shards with phasing, everything even worse), as well as principle of progress system (which for a long time already has been for the most part as endless and almost uncontrolled process). All that auto/search engine and M+ lacked was impersonal ranking/rating and lo and behold! devs, without hindrance, allowed players to write it and successfully implement and now, within framework of current system, almost without chances of inventing a “vaccine”.
    Kaver
    choose to play with people they dont give a shit about.
    It’s not because people choose, but because game offers it them as fastest, easiest and most profitable solution of their problems. This is experience current game gives them (this doesn't solve by momentary intervention, process is long and must be constant).
    Kaver
    Do you really believe that it's Blizzard's responsibility to keep people out of situations where they might behave toxic?
    The point is not "to allow or not to allow", but to organize adequate consequences in this regard. This is learning process. These are conditions for gaining experience and formation of certain behavior:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Well, I won't call it "mandatory" because there is still alternative and if this tank is really that bad, you will have to do all these manipulations with new tank search. Ie let's formulate it better this way: "that" game offers a polite solution as a more easy one - that's how it sounds better. And also this is mutual polite decision and tank will be interested to listen to all your instructions in order to not get into "black list" even if not for server, but at least for separate guild.

    That's how it's done. Simple and neat. Game doesn't forbid you to be an asshole, but it doesn't encourage, rather educates, makes penalty, and this is done through game collective, through community.
    and since there is no community (there is no mechanism to fight back), so no consequences.

    So... since we started for anonymity, so significant part of problem from "anonymity" turns into lack of adequate/healthy politeness' motivation (this is not coercion, you can do it differently, but easier... to do it right)
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2020-10-15 at 04:10 PM.
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  19. #159
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    I don't think I've ever seen this "community feeling" people talk about in reference to the older WoW from 10+ years ago, and I've been playing since TBC. Where the F was it when I started? In a cave somewhere? In Goldshire?

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    after playing classic for a few months i can tell you that the toxicity levels there are off the charts,i dont recall how it was in vanila i was like 16 when i started and i was a bit of an ass myself lol
    Yeah, I just feel like the gaming culture as a whole is just so far down this path that you're not going to get away from it. I only played one server in Vanilla, so it's somewhat anecdotal, but our server definitely had an understood code of ethics. You'd get shitbagged in trade if you ninja'd, completely ignored tactics, etc. Guilds talked as well.

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