Truth Behind the Toxic Environment in WoW.

[M1r4g3]

There is a difference between Thing A having an impact on Thing B and Thing A being the cause of Thing B. You could recognize that if you weren't actively looking for ways to make blizzard a scapegoat and making excuses for people who choose to be toxic assholes in the game.

Blizzard does thing>people react to thing , if thing didn't exist, people wouldn't react to thing, meaning blizzzard is also to blame.
Not quite sure how i benefit from any of that, considering i'm in a guild and don't have any assholes around me, im just looking at it objectively, and not through some moral highground lens.

But based on this logic Blizzard are only allowed to make extremely easy content with no risk of failure.

Do you really believe that it's Blizzard's responsibility to keep people out of situations where they might behave toxic?

What are you on about, what does difficulty have to do with anything? Just look at lfr, easiest content imaginable, and still just as toxic, if not more.

Not keep people out, but rather avoid creating those situations in the first place, or make things have consequences like in the real world, nice people might not need those consequences but assholes do, and since we cant get rid of assholes, the only solution is to fix them, either with consequences or not putting them in asshole inducing situations.

[NineSpine]

I admit that the environment does impact how people act. But that is not the same as the environment being to blame for how people act. If someone makes a verbal attack in M+ then that person is 100 % to blame for that action no matter what. He might have been poked, but the action is still 100 % his responsibility.

If people cant handle being in the environment then they should no be in it. And more importantly, you should avoid those people if they are in that environment. But nobody force them to be there and nobody force you to play with them.

The following can both be true at the same time:

1. If you are a jerk, it's your fault.
2. If a piece of content or a system is filled with jerks, it's the fault of the design of the system.

[Accendor]

IMO, the actual toxicity comes from anonymity.

How would we engage with each other if everyone knew our IRL names and addresses? I know half the people who name call would never do it in person.

This is just the way it is.

It was pretty different in classic, before server transfers, name change and instant near-maxlevel-boosts for money were a thing. If you fucked up, you fucked up and nobody would invite you. No IRL names and addresses needed for that.

[Agent Smith]

It was pretty different in classic, before server transfers, name change and instant near-maxlevel-boosts for money were a thing. If you fucked up, you fucked up and nobody would invite you. No IRL names and addresses needed for that.

"back in my day...." ??

Shits over dude. We are here, now.

[Highelf]

after playing classic for a few months i can tell you that the toxicity levels there are off the charts,i dont recall how it was in vanila i was like 16 when i started and i was a bit of an ass myself lol

You must be REALLY super hyper sensitive then. Just because not everyone acts like an episode of Teletubbies dones't mean it's toxic. grow up and have some confidence in yourself and realize you're not always going to have your mom there to tell you good job and bake you your favorite pie if something doesn't happen the way you think it should.

[Freighter]

this is extremly backwards in my experience,i have with almost 100% accuracy found that the people who are or think they are on a ''high skill level'' act more toxic in pugs,this is the reason why i completly stoped using raider io when looking for a m+ pug to fill a group,the high score guys are asshats like clockwork if ANYTHING goes wrong,and join groups clearly listed as ''weekly'',now i just chose based on ilvl and very rarerly had problems

No, you just confirmed that this is the case with what you said.

If you are not up to their skill level, of course people are going to be pissed when you screw up with basic things everyone should know.

[deenman]

No, you just confirmed that this is the case with what you said.

If you are not up to their skill level, of course people are going to be pissed when you screw up with basic things everyone should know.

yeah,thats exactly my point lol

- - - Updated - - -

You must be REALLY super hyper sensitive then. Just because not everyone acts like an episode of Teletubbies dones't mean it's toxic. grow up and have some confidence in yourself and realize you're not always going to have your mom there to tell you good job and bake you your favorite pie if something doesn't happen the way you think it should.

im just comparing it to retail experience,toxic people dont rly bother me

[Accendor]

"back in my day...." ??

Shits over dude. We are here, now.

Please read the context of the post and don't do random interpretations.

[Redlikemyrage]

I agree partly. It's MOSTLY our own fault. Though removing yourself from it is just to flee, and do not solve anything but your own needs.

You also have to remember that most of the time, there's one person in the group that comes out as toxic first. Thats 20% in a group of five and even lower in a group of more. Most of the time the other poeople are pretty nice but it doesn't show, only the person spewing toxicity is noticed and that suffecated the atmosphere completely. So what can we do? Remove the toxic person? Well yes, but as some content (looking at you, mythic+) are constructed, you won't be able to replace that person. The group either suck it up and move on or disband.

I'm the kind of person who enjoy puging, you meet so many different people and as long as you show a friendly, understanding and chill attitude the toxicity have a hard time getting through. It does, sometimes but most of the times a showing of chill attitude and understanding spark a more constructive discussion which ends up in the players doing better and over all having a better experience while learning a thing or two.

I think at least 60-70% of my pugs have been a great experience where everyone had a decent time.

How do we change this? It's by steping in, showing that niceness is the dominant way and that toxicity does not have a place in our groups. People tend to adjust to the most accepted behaviour so we make it not about toxicity but friendliness.

TL;DR: it starts with you. Be nice

Haven’t gotten through the whole thread so sorry if I’m parroting a later response, but you are spot on with the assessment that it starts with you, the individual, first.

Thanks to the XP buff I’ve been collecting up quite the alt army, and as such, have spent a lot of time in lower level LFG content. Regardless of the role selected, it always seems to help by establishing a tone early. What I mean, for example, can be seen in just one group I ran today before work. Gnomer with a fairly competent healer (me as tank) and some newbie dps (based on play style). I start the group off immediately in chat greeting everyone and explaining that we will be jumping off the first level and to use the parachute. One guy was confused, two other members jumped in to politely help him. This opened up his comfort, he asked a few more questions, and everyone participated in polite convo while we cleared.

Had I not started talking, the poor guy with the parachute issue probably leaves, with or without some shit slung his way as a parting gift.

As the quoted poster stated. It starts with you.

Another point, there is currently zero punishment for leaving a m+ key. This part is on Blizzard, as their refusal to punish people who desert their teams is a large oversight. I think their excuse would be “but it’s manually formed groups” and all that. This is a conscious choice by Blizzard to feign ignorance. The LFG feature is alive and well in the m+ scene. Them pretending for a moment that we have all the tools needed to vet our groups to make sure no one rage quits or trolls the group ruining the key exist is ridiculous. If I can get a deserter rebuff for leaving pleb lowbie dungeons or random bgs, joke content as far as challenge goes, then why at the most difficult level of small group content is there no way to corral this behavior outside of the very personal level ignoring them allows?

Overall, social interaction in game can be very positive, and I’ve had way more positive experiences than negative. But man... knowing that toxic asshats can drop keys with zero backlash irks me just a tad.

[Alkizon]

monkaTOS
You mean YOU talked about your favourite subject of how everyone is mean to you in groups, because the dungeon has timers? "We" certainly didn't talk about it

M+ is awesome and much less toxic than you make it out to be. There's a range of low keys (12-15) where you encounter people who are very obviously "trying too hard", but going past (or below) that, the community is generally (as far as you can generalize online communities) nice, helpful and caring.

Statistics and logic goes against your opinion. Simple as is

You apparently didn't read any of proposed, it's about experience that gives one or another element of gameplay (subsystem). Naturally, if, according to your initial experience, you have already formed certain type of behavior, that's possible, there is nothing strange here (you're confident and assertive and not malleable to influence from outside, which I seriously doubt ), but there are huge number of people who don't or have different experience and style of behavior, and this element of gameplay doesn't take into account this, it doesn't take calculation own influence on other systems (ignores fact that it's negatively dependent). If you break this connection, then everything will be relatively normal.

If we'll talk about timers in particular, then old "timers" were mobs' respawn, enrage/near-one-shot system on bosses, amount of resources and their consumption by various participants, etc., etc. Now it has turned into some kind of mythical numbers, absolutely not logically tied to encounter (by the way, in this sense, I don't agree with whining on visions, that implementation of "timers" is quite logical for them, but this is special lore case; sometimes there were timers in old stuff, but which were justified by something specifically). Dungeons themselves are very small (but shouldn't, and if recall organisation of "polysyllabic" system ) and “persecution” of characters is their only way to create at least some tension (easy and cheap solution, but completely not original or interesting, freebie devs' stuff; the idea is to bombard you with loot, which is mostly useless, because current uncontrollable progress system based on RNG requires this; system acts not by quality, but by quantity). So, since process is part of one of “mandatory” gaming system, arriving in a way unnatural for gaming world universe as a whole, it causes negative consequences. I repeat, it's enough to turn them into challenges for statistics/training/cosmetic-awards and remove it from effective progress system and that’s all (dungeons should be part of the progress system, but only as one of its stages, no more and no less). Another thing is that right dungeons' design itself has certain limitations and is dictated by rules of outside world (both content and gameplay parts of it).

At the same time (I repeat once again) it doesn’t matter at all how much fun it's for you personally, it doesn't have any meaning/influence within framework of overall design. Its task is to fit correctly into overall design, complement it, and not interfere with it. Technically, it does, because entire design is now for "faster and cheaper". Another thing is that I don't agree with this approach in design of content and organization of its consumption... a-a-and here our roads diverge in different directions.

tl;dr You speak for yourself, and I for performance and attractiveness of entire system as a whole.

monkaTOS
You do you!
The M+ system is a success. In terms of gameplay, community and popularity. But I'm sure you are going to shove more links to your old posts at me.

Oh. So, you're troll, that's honest confession, then I won't waste time on this, thanks

Redlikemyrage
Another point, there is currently zero punishment for leaving a m+ key. This part is on Blizzard, as their refusal to punish people who desert their teams is a large oversight. I think their excuse would be “but it’s manually formed groups” and all that. This is a conscious choice by Blizzard to feign ignorance. The LFG feature is alive and well in the m+ scene. Them pretending for a moment that we have all the tools needed to vet our groups to make sure no one rage quits or trolls the group ruining the key exist is ridiculous. If I can get a deserter rebuff for leaving pleb lowbie dungeons or random bgs, joke content as far as challenge goes, then why at the most difficult level of small group content is there no way to corral this behavior outside of the very personal level ignoring them allows?

Рunishment won't be full, because there is no one to punish him, the only punishment here will be an active act by manipulation part of the system, which means it can be used for evil, punishment should be passive, but since there is no effective social organization in the game, it’s impossible to do this in framework of current content design "with such crutches" putting here, they will only be larger and cause system failure (it’s like with "mute" in chat, they should make good filter, and not give "shotgun to everyone’s hands").

It won't work... it doesn't work.

[Mayia]

Toxicity in video games (like WoW) mainly occurs between strangers. Toxic environment most commonly involve people who don't care about each other at all.

Most of the threads in here about toxic behavior have one thing in common: They are all based on experiences from PUG'ing.

And PUG'ing is the main problem. A lot of people become very toxic when they play with strangers who they don't care about at all. Especially when it happens on the internet. You almost never see the same level of toxicity in a guild group or friend group that you see in a group of complete strangers. Sure it happens, but it's much less frequent.

A lot of people like to blame the content for the toxicity. "M+ is to blame for toxic behavior" and so on.. But the content is not to blame for people's toxic behavior. When you take 5 people who don't give a sh*t about each other and put them in a group, then the risk of toxic behavior will increase significantly.

The toxic behavior exists because you choose to spend time with people who don't give a damn about you. Instead of making friends and playing with these friends, you choose to play with strangers all the time. And many of these strangers don't care about you or your well-being. They see you as nothing more than a tool to get the loot. They see you as another NPC in the game instead of a human being. And if you make the smallest mistake then hell breaks loose. It's funny how much peoples behavior change once they use discord and actually talk with each other. I never heard anyone on discord say "Oh your f*cking noob, learn to play!". It mostly happens when people are typing behind their keyboards.

Most of the toxic environments in WoW are created by complete strangers playing together. You cant just blame the content for that. Do yourself a favor and remove yourself from these environments. Find a good guild and make some friends to play with and your own experience in the game will most likely improve.

Yes but blizzard have failed in making guilds important enough to truly worry about as a casual player, so there are loads of "nobodies" ready to abuse.
tribalism is built into our species we have to see everyone else as human or we'll treat them like poop.

[lockybalboa]

From my experience in both hardcore and casual guilds, I find raiders to be generally more toxic and elitist

[neik]

you can do bigger pulls in TW than in a mythic plus if you Pre-select people for TW. Mostly because there are no affixes. But it is in no way or form any "slap". RDF TW? Sure, as you get grouped with a person who does not have an interrupt on their bars.

Everyone acting as it's blizzards fault and shit. Look online, comment sections is full of some bold statements, generalizations or people who are replying some foul stuff to people just sharing their experience and they are like "got ya good idiot". Look at these forums... supposedly "old school" gamers should be extremely social but we end up seeing both retailers and classic players ripping each other throats out. Thing is, that forums will generally have more toxic people on them anyway. It's very similar to "men in jail" - general population of men are okay and law abiding people, but there are portion men who are going to do crimes and get jailed, in our case people are willing to talk, go to forums. Let's just take a random number of 10%, not an actual figure. Some of the men are in jails for some stupid shit, but big part of them will be in there for aggressive crimes, which would in no way represent general population but if you looked at those 10% who are on the forums (jail) and did a survey you would come to conclusion 50% of men are aggressive af. While in reality it would be just 5% of actual population. And ofc everyone knows, that there are 120 guys in a lecture but you will certainly get 2-3 who are vocal and "jokers". Internet can be a good place, but given the "unreachability, anonymity and so on lots of people just show their bitterness. Internet knights. It was always a thing.
I only can make assumptions, but maybe the accessibility has played a part in this internet trolling and shitpits, as in general back in the old days it was more of "smart" people thing, who tend to be more modern and flexible, open-minded now it is so accessible that any random mong can use their phone to type shit under random people posts. Not that general population does that. If you look at "seen" counts you get 300 views and 10 comments, few of them might be shitposting.
Also internet tribalism. Humans are just like that, there are always "them and us". Counties, towns, sports teams, games, raiders vs casuals and so on.

One thing is clear: most mythic plus players have no humility, but a jumbo-size egos.

You can see this often manifesting into hysteria, insults, and rage quitting. Nature of anonymity allows them to face zero consequences, so they continue on doing so.

The other day we had a healer who was seething very hard, making passive aggressive and snarky comments through out the entire instance. And just before the last boss he/she just exploded and left the party, rendering our instance unfinished.

I guess my main point is that mythic plus is a ground zero for breeding toxic players. That's all I have to say on this topic.

[Redlikemyrage]

Рunishment won't be full, because there is no one to punish him, the only punishment here will be an active act by manipulation part of the system, which means it can be used for evil, punishment should be passive, but since there is no effective social organization in the game, it’s impossible to do this in framework of current content design "with such crutches" putting here, they will only be larger and cause system failure (it’s like with "mute" in chat, they should make good filter, and not give "shotgun to everyone’s hands").

It won't work... it doesn't work.

Because they currently do not have an effective system in place is not an excuse. They should be trying to implement one and reiterate upon as needed until it is relatively abuse proof. You’re speaking as if no online game ever has been harsh on toxic players of all sorts. Just look at GTA V online for an example. I’m not even suggesting that the system has to be knowable by us, the players. This could all be handled behind the scenes. Conditions could be checked, and various levels of appropriate punishment could be handed out without anyone but the offending party being aware.

Just because it requires more than they currently do is not an excuse to dismiss the idea as one that simply won’t ever work. That’s being incredibly narrow sighted. No offense of course

Hell, just spitballing here, but even a simple system to check a couple if>then statements. Did the player leave the group. If so, was he removed? This I’m sure is two different actions in the servers eyes. If removed by the group, then there is no penalty (this part needs more in place as it doesn’t combat trolls). If the player leaves the group on his own, before dungeon completion, simple deserter buff style system would work. It already prevents bullying in the sense that a group can’t kick you and force a deserter on you.

I admit I already see flaws in that. What if one of the players decides to force a kick by ninja pulling or fucking the run up intentionally because the timer wouldn’t be met. Of course there’s small issue with this. But I’m not a designer. And people smarter than me get paid to do this. There is no excuse for there not being one yet.

[ErrandRunner]

This reminds me of the old "guns don't kill people, people kill people" issue. Unfortunately it's just that some humans are toxic and glimpses of their true self comes through when they are put in stressful or uncomfortable situations.

[Alkizon]

Redlikemyrage
I admit I already see flaws in that. What if one of the players decides to force a kick by ninja pulling or fucking the run up intentionally because the timer wouldn’t be met. Of course there’s small issue with this. But I’m not a designer. And people smarter than me get paid to do this. There is no excuse for there not being one yet.

Again, hint apparently was not clear without reading links. I hinted that "violator" is punished not by system, but by society that was offended. Moreover, they don't lynch him (can torture from time to time, but within the game - it's rather rat fuss), but by their inaction in personal direction - restrict person's access to content and progress, which, as you know, was already paid. What leaves "defendant" to spend time exclusively on aimless and useless "narcissism". Naturally, when whole guilds are engaged in this, situation turns out to be quite difficult, but still not hopeless. Point is that devs themselves destroyed mechanism of influence, which formed naturally earlier, and now not only aren't trying to restore it, but replace it with artificial automatic systems that aren't capable of targeted analysis of situation. Of course, this won't work, it's quite difficult, since it's necessary to make not just "accurate", but "right" decision, which current automatic systems aren't capable of.

ErrandRunner
This reminds me of the old "guns don't kill people, people kill people" issue. Unfortunately it's just that some humans are toxic and glimpses of their true self comes through when they are put in stressful or uncomfortable situations.

There is some mutual, of course, but not quite. It's more like how their private interior issues were solved within several families/villages, without involving feudal lord/government ("when in Rome do as the Romans do"). Devs have deprived you of this opportunity. For good, problems that community creates for itself aren't devs' problems, but automatically become so, when they take away initiative. They just didn't take this into account when planned "modern" design. So, system now begin to require immense amount of "crutches", which ultimately spawn demand only on even larger number of new "crutches" and there is no end to this process.

As I already hinted in the answer to 1 quote above: system went beyond scope of game world, which devs should have resisted as much as possible, since final control of system should have remained in their hands, and now they themselves contributed to its loss (strictly speaking, they left no choice for players), they lost strings of intelligent control and all that was left for them is to punish without trial (2 extremes are fighting in game now - anarchy and dictatorship, neither is attractive).

M1r4g3
- - - stuff - - -

Draylock
Are you toxic to your screwdriver if you can't utilize it properly?

Well, why not, if you have thousand of "them" in the pantry and getting new one is easy task, why not scold/blame/break "tool"... but! if change "it" will become very problematic for you, and working without "it" is almost impossible... I think you'll treat "it" much more carefully

Your weapon, Miller! lt's your life! You knew that, and you saved it. You're learning, son.

See the difference?

Toxicity is provoked by lack of direct need for friendship and mutual assistance. People have neither social/situational need for each other <A friend in need is a friend indeed>, nor need to assess consequences of their actions <Social cohesion/interdependence>.

"Even wolves hunt in packs."

[Zephire]

Haven’t gotten through the whole thread so sorry if I’m parroting a later response, but you are spot on with the assessment that it starts with you, the individual, first.

Thanks to the XP buff I’ve been collecting up quite the alt army, and as such, have spent a lot of time in lower level LFG content. Regardless of the role selected, it always seems to help by establishing a tone early. What I mean, for example, can be seen in just one group I ran today before work. Gnomer with a fairly competent healer (me as tank) and some newbie dps (based on play style). I start the group off immediately in chat greeting everyone and explaining that we will be jumping off the first level and to use the parachute. One guy was confused, two other members jumped in to politely help him. This opened up his comfort, he asked a few more questions, and everyone participated in polite convo while we cleared.

Had I not started talking, the poor guy with the parachute issue probably leaves, with or without some shit slung his way as a parting gift.

As the quoted poster stated. It starts with you.

Another point, there is currently zero punishment for leaving a m+ key. This part is on Blizzard, as their refusal to punish people who desert their teams is a large oversight. I think their excuse would be “but it’s manually formed groups” and all that. This is a conscious choice by Blizzard to feign ignorance. The LFG feature is alive and well in the m+ scene. Them pretending for a moment that we have all the tools needed to vet our groups to make sure no one rage quits or trolls the group ruining the key exist is ridiculous. If I can get a deserter rebuff for leaving pleb lowbie dungeons or random bgs, joke content as far as challenge goes, then why at the most difficult level of small group content is there no way to corral this behavior outside of the very personal level ignoring them allows?

Overall, social interaction in game can be very positive, and I’ve had way more positive experiences than negative. But man... knowing that toxic asshats can drop keys with zero backlash irks me just a tad.

Way to go! I'm glad to read of someone other than me doing that in groups Love it when new/inexperienced players open up and dare to ask questions!

I think Blizz should be more relaxed with punishments instead of enforcing them. This would also require you as a player to be able to keep going even though others drop out.

I'm not a fan at all of punishment, it might be the only way from time to time but I much rather that you were encuraged to do positive things. Lead the way and show what's okay, not the other way around showing what's not okay.

To be honest, why can't you invite new people to an already ongoing m+? What's the deal behind that? To avoid people clearing to before last boss then kicking someone and inviting a paying player who wants loot? I mean, there has to be some way to sort that out, such as handeling loot in a different way etc.

My theory is that gaming companies focus a lot on enforcing rules on the playerbase. Be it due to political, exploiting or abusive reasons. This clearly shows that the company does not trust you as a consumer to do the right thing. You as a player are striped from all responsibility. This could change over time with a long going plan. It's not something that would change over night, players has to get used to that way of thinking and it will take time. I've seen some companies slowly work their way towards this and I hope it spreads and that us gamers embrace it for a better community. It's difficult but I'm positive that it can be done. It's a society thing though and not only gaming. Time will tell but as we both said, it starts with you :P

[M1r4g3]

From my experience in both hardcore and casual guilds, I find raiders to be generally more toxic and elitist

From my experience its the opposite, raiders are a part of a guild and generally need to act better or they risk getting kicked, as opposed to people who are guildless and have nothing to lose.

Because they currently do not have an effective system in place is not an excuse. They should be trying to implement one and reiterate upon as needed until it is relatively abuse proof. You’re speaking as if no online game ever has been harsh on toxic players of all sorts. Just look at GTA V online for an example. I’m not even suggesting that the system has to be knowable by us, the players. This could all be handled behind the scenes. Conditions could be checked, and various levels of appropriate punishment could be handed out without anyone but the offending party being aware.

Just because it requires more than they currently do is not an excuse to dismiss the idea as one that simply won’t ever work. That’s being incredibly narrow sighted. No offense of course

Hell, just spitballing here, but even a simple system to check a couple if>then statements. Did the player leave the group. If so, was he removed? This I’m sure is two different actions in the servers eyes. If removed by the group, then there is no penalty (this part needs more in place as it doesn’t combat trolls). If the player leaves the group on his own, before dungeon completion, simple deserter buff style system would work. It already prevents bullying in the sense that a group can’t kick you and force a deserter on you.

I admit I already see flaws in that. What if one of the players decides to force a kick by ninja pulling or fucking the run up intentionally because the timer wouldn’t be met. Of course there’s small issue with this. But I’m not a designer. And people smarter than me get paid to do this. There is no excuse for there not being one yet.

Tbh i don't think a punishment based system would be good in a non competitive mmorpg(at least its not supposed to be outside of pvp) thats just asking people to find loopholes(which there is no way you can find and fix in a game as big as wow) to continue abusing it, t
Also the feeling of a ''higher power'' deciding gives a meh non-geniuine feeling in a community based game.
Id rather not design bad systems in the first place, for example in m+, what if when someone leaves the timer pauses and mobs become untargetable until the game detects 5 people inside, and you can just invite another person to continue(yes, there will obviously be ways to abuse it but its still better to have people abusing the game than each other, the game doesn't have feelings and can be easily fixed), or something along those lines, would probably lessen the overall toxicity and no one got banned for it.

This reminds me of the old "guns don't kill people, people kill people" issue. Unfortunately it's just that some humans are toxic and glimpses of their true self comes through when they are put in stressful or uncomfortable situations.

Not really the same tho, blizzard is the one creating the guns but also putting people in shitty situations to increase the chances of them using it.
Also, you could put literally the nicest person in the world in a stressful enough situation and they will eventually crack, is that their ''true self'' then?
I believe that assholes can only be considered assholes if they are assholes in their neutral/happy state(you know, the shitheads that just do crap like that for fun), and honestly there are very few of those compared to nice/neutral people who just got put in a shitty situation and are reacting assholeish/out of character.

[erifwodahs]

One thing is clear: most mythic plus players have no humility, but a jumbo-size egos.

You can see this often manifesting into hysteria, insults, and rage quitting. Nature of anonymity allows them to face zero consequences, so they continue on doing so.

The other day we had a healer who was seething very hard, making passive aggressive and snarky comments through out the entire instance. And just before the last boss he/she just exploded and left the party, rendering our instance unfinished.

I guess my main point is that mythic plus is a ground zero for breeding toxic players. That's all I have to say on this topic.

Most... well, most of people I roll in m+ are not toxic. You get one or two in 10 dungeons. And I run a lot of those. This season I have 100+ on timed 15s combined on two of my chars, probably around 50 of untimeds or under 15s. It would be interesting to see your "most of m+ players" source.

[Beloren]

Toxicity in video games (like WoW) mainly occurs between strangers. Toxic environment most commonly involve people who don't care about each other at all.

Most of the threads in here about toxic behavior have one thing in common: They are all based on experiences from PUG'ing.

And PUG'ing is the main problem. A lot of people become very toxic when they play with strangers who they don't care about at all. Especially when it happens on the internet. You almost never see the same level of toxicity in a guild group or friend group that you see in a group of complete strangers. Sure it happens, but it's much less frequent.

A lot of people like to blame the content for the toxicity. "M+ is to blame for toxic behavior" and so on.. But the content is not to blame for people's toxic behavior. When you take 5 people who don't give a sh*t about each other and put them in a group, then the risk of toxic behavior will increase significantly.

The toxic behavior exists because you choose to spend time with people who don't give a damn about you. Instead of making friends and playing with these friends, you choose to play with strangers all the time. And many of these strangers don't care about you or your well-being. They see you as nothing more than a tool to get the loot. They see you as another NPC in the game instead of a human being. And if you make the smallest mistake then hell breaks loose. It's funny how much peoples behavior change once they use discord and actually talk with each other. I never heard anyone on discord say "Oh your f*cking noob, learn to play!". It mostly happens when people are typing behind their keyboards.

Most of the toxic environments in WoW are created by complete strangers playing together. You cant just blame the content for that. Do yourself a favor and remove yourself from these environments. Find a good guild and make some friends to play with and your own experience in the game will most likely improve.

It's ture man, it's so true. Kaver for class president !!