It's Time To Do Away With The Holy Trinity

[blankfaced]

The point of the holy trinity is for the tank to get threat and thereby get hit and need the heals.

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I'd argue it is broken. There aren't enough tanks, ever. 16 years of tank shortages are enough to conclude we have a problem.

The problem is how the player base is allowed to treat people in game. (Heaven forbid you want to do the WQ.) We caused the tank shortage by treating tanks like garbage in dungeons for 16 years.

[Thirtyrock]

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Not hard to use the vast amount of resources out there to learn before ever setting foot into the dungeon itself. People who can't take the heat need not apply anyways, but the game should be designed to not need those people or rely on a particular type of (very rare) person for random match making to function.

Again, if you're talking about boss encounters, sure, but expecting someone to know each and every pull before ever trying to tank a dungeon is silly. There are too many and they vary based on dungeon difficulty, key level, group comp, etc. It is hard to absorb all of that and then execute without experience.
We need to give people grace to learn the more difficult roles.

[NihilSustinet]

Pre tell, what exactly constitutes an MMO and what can't you get from dark souls to fill those vague definitions?

An MMO is a game where hundreds if not thousands of people share the same game world at the same time, and can interact with eachother. diablo 3 is not an MMO, destiny 2 is not an MMO, dark souls is not an MMO, etc.

[BeepBoo]

The problem is how the player base is allowed to treat people in game. (Heaven forbid you want to do the WQ.) We caused the tank shortage by treating tanks like garbage in dungeons for 16 years.

First part of good root-cause analysis is don't ever blame the user. Design the system to circumvent all the shortcomings you KNOW your user is going to have. Ergo, think of ways to solve the issue that will naturally occur. Some games get rid of chat altogether (bad IMO). Some games design it so content is easy (also bad IMO). I'd say the best way of ensuring tanks don't get flamed for being bad is giving it the DPS treatment. No one cares about slack-ass horrible dps players in random queues because they have so little responsibility and that responsibility is shared amongst 3 people.

Want tanks to not NEED to be good at the game? Make content beatable even if your tank sucks. Make it so tanks aren't solely responsible for the group's pacing, the group's survival, the mob's positioning, etc.

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An MMO is a game where hundreds if not thousands of people share the same game world at the same time, and can interact with eachother. diablo 3 is not an MMO, destiny 2 is not an MMO, dark souls is not an MMO, etc.

Hmm, so POE isn't an MMO, either? I'd say your definition is garbage. Any game that has enough people and multiplayer content where you can connect with any of those people freely and openly is an MMO.

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Again, if you're talking about boss encounters, sure, but expecting someone to know each and every pull before ever trying to tank a dungeon is silly. There are too many and they vary based on dungeon difficulty, key level, group comp, etc. It is hard to absorb all of that and then execute without experience.
We need to give people grace to learn the more difficult roles.

You do that by getting friends (as the tank) and running those dungeons that way. PUGs have certain expectations in that you're expected to already know what you're doing.

Same as rando queue pvp. Do you ever expect that not to be vitriolic? No. Why? Because you're randomly grouping people together and the success of that group is directly dependent on people already being good at the game. No success = people gonna be mad. People mad and it's due to some random person they don't care about being bad = shit talking. Shit talking to someone who is emotionally sensitive = bad feels. Bad feels = less desire to participate.

[cuafpr]

You solve the tank issue by putting in AI Tanks and when needed Heals for anything LFG/LFR. They have the tech for it now in the game code, they use it on island expeditions for the enemy team and it works really well.

People who nay say this idea are going to be sad when it is inevitably implemented. There should be some restrictions, it should only activate when wait times exceed like 10 minutes (or whatever they find to be reasonable) and an AI tank will never take the place of an actual player, it will always find a player a real group over the AI when available.

in the new leveling zone in alpha this tech is on display even more.. the first dungeon. I queued waiting 10 mins or so for a group, then it popped me in there with an NPC tank/healer and me as DPS. So yeah they are close to allowing true solo story mode dungeons and that will be glorious.. and the tech can be used if tanks/heals are super low for LFD/LFR

[Blackmist]

We've been down this road before.

The result was Guild Wars 2 with its shit bosses that you all just flail at until they fall over, and Scenarios in WoW which were shit as well.

Stop fucking around with queued content. That's the answer.

[neocount]

The mechanics that made the holy trinity work are mostly long gone (threat management). Right now, the holy trinity is a vestigial appendage that only serves to make it more difficult for people to get into the content. It also restricts design decisions by making bosses hit so hard that you need tanks and healers, preventing creative solutions to encounters.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't have classes with tank and healer toolkits, but those roles should be altered to fit a model that does not require them.

There is already another MMO out there without the holy trinity and I'm sorry but... it sucks.

[Thirtyrock]

You do that by getting friends (as the tank) and running those dungeons that way. PUGs have certain expectations in that you're expected to already know what you're doing.

Same as rando queue pvp. Do you ever expect that not to be vitriolic? No. Why? Because you're randomly grouping people together and the success of that group is directly dependent on people already being good at the game. No success = people gonna be mad. People mad and it's due to some random person they don't care about being bad = shit talking. Shit talking to someone who is emotionally sensitive = bad feels. Bad feels = less desire to participate.

I mean, sure, but we're talking about why there is a shortage in LFG/LFR and it's exactly because of the mentality you're supporting. The fact that pugs are so unforgiving, even in the easiest of content, is exactly why so few players try to break into tanking. PVP is different, in my book, it's competitive.

If this behavior only happened in M+ and PUG raids (not LFR) I would be MUCH more understanding; those are not entry level activities. The fact that it happens even in lfg normal dungeons or lfg heroics...That's where the problem is. Expecting a tank to pull the whole dungeon and/or pulling for them without letting them get their feet wet...

Well, people who complain about how few tanks there are and then participate in that behavior are causing their own problem.

[Clone]

I'd like to see the holy trinity go too, but the content design needs to be more creative than the current one. To argue that holy trinity leads to dull content would be disregarding that most action adventure games don't rely on this concept too.

[Sansnom]

The problem is how the player base is allowed to treat people in game. (Heaven forbid you want to do the WQ.) We caused the tank shortage by treating tanks like garbage in dungeons for 16 years.

Pretty much. This partly because some people sees others primary as a mean to acquire what they want, which is loot loot loot. They are not there to socialize and play the game as a group. It is to acquire more loot.

Just look at the various other threads arguing about who deserve loot and who does not. LFR is a prime example where people argue over whether participants should be rewarded with loot.

[BeepBoo]

I mean, sure, but we're talking about why there is a shortage in LFG/LFR and it's exactly because of the mentality you're supporting. The fact that pugs are so unforgiving, even in the easiest of content, is exactly why so few players try to break into tanking. PVP is different, in my book, it's competitive.

All the same thing: people in it for solo gains, but those gains are tied to needing group competency.

If this behavior only happened in M+ and PUG raids (not LFR) I would be MUCH more understanding; those are not entry level activities. The fact that it happens even in lfg normal dungeons or lfg heroics...That's where the problem is. Expecting a tank to pull the whole dungeon and/or pulling for them without letting them get their feet wet...

Again, get your feet wet on your own time and with people who agree to allow you to get your feet wet comfortably. No one that signs up for random queues is sitting there hoping "Gee I really want to take an hour to do this dungeon I could normally do in 10 minutes if the tank and dps know wtf they're doing!" random queue match making only works if everyone is good. Having weak links participating in it is the issue, especially when the weak link has no one to carry them if they fail.

Well, people who complain about how few tanks there are and then participate in that behavior are causing their own problem.

OR they could just design the game so "problems" of trying to force people to be patient and accepting of others isn't even needed any more, because the roles are no longer so restrictive that one person shoulders a disproportionate amount of the responsibility.

[CalamityHeart]

Hmm, so POE isn't an MMO, either? I'd say your definition is garbage. Any game that has enough people and multiplayer content where you can connect with any of those people freely and openly is an MMO.

Not every game with a multiplayer element can be considered an MMO. My general thought is that if the game defines a limit in-game to the amount of players that can exist within it and interact with the environment and each other, it's not an MMO.

Path of Exile is not an MMO. Aside from its rest areas, the world is closed, unless you form a group, and that group can only contain... five people, I think? Maybe a little more. But there is a small, hard limit to the amount of players that can interact with any one instance of PoE's game world.

Dark Souls is not an MMO, for almost the same reason. The world is closed and you must opt into hard-limited multiplayer content.

Something like Planetside 2, a shooter, IS an MMO. The world is open, and while groups exist, you don't have to be in a group to interact with others. You are unlimited in the scope of multiplayer activity.

Warframe, a shooter, is not an MMO. Like PoE, there are safe hubs where players can interact and connect freely with other players, and unlike PoE, the core gameplay of Warframe defaults to and encourages group play. But that group play is still opt-in, and that gameplay is instanced, a la dungeons. You cannot jump into a mission in Warframe and randomly run into another player that's not involved directly with whatever mission you're on. Not even in the more open-world segments of the game.

I'm sure there's a better way I could be explaining this. But I hope that at least starts to help, anyway.

[BeepBoo]

I'm sure there's a better way I could be explaining this. But I hope that at least starts to help, anyway.

That's fair for a definition, just not my personal taste. The open world of wow might as well be closed, since pvp is optional and mobs are shared tagging now. Effectively solo games with no real impact of having other people around. All the MMO aspects reside in the intentional grouped content.

[exochaft]

We've been down this road before.

The result was Guild Wars 2 with its shit bosses that you all just flail at until they fall over, and Scenarios in WoW which were shit as well.

Stop fucking around with queued content. That's the answer.

I'd have to say that it's mostly an issue with random queuing systems, as well. We currently do have content where group comp (when it comes to DPS/tanks/healers) can be ignored: Horrific Visions. Now, the reason this non-standard group works for visions and not for content such as M+/raids is because the mechanics in Horrific Visions does not change based upon your role and are very limited, while M+/raids have tons of role-specific mechanics layered in. Also, the health/damage of mobs and mechanics does not currently scale dynamically in M+/raids based upon role. More importantly, Horrific Visions aren't tuned as high as M+/raids tend to be, which allows non-standard group comps to work.

[Thirtyrock]

Again, get your feet wet on your own time and with people who agree to allow you to get your feet wet comfortably. No one that signs up for random queues is sitting there hoping "Gee I really want to take an hour to do this dungeon I could normally do in 10 minutes if the tank and dps know wtf they're doing!" random queue match making only works if everyone is good. Having weak links participating in it is the issue, especially when the weak link has no one to carry them if they fail.
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You're just supporting the mentality that causes the problem. As long as the trinity exists tanks and healers will shoulder the load. I'm all about that because I love tanking. You could just as easily say "if people want to complete the dungeon in 10 minutes then they should do it with friends groups rather than trusting the random tank they're signing up with"

If you want to excuse people being crappy as poor game design, go ahead. I can tell you this wasn't NEARLY the issue it has become back when LFG/LFR wasn't a thing. I was a well known tank on my server and people knew they could expect competent runs with me. If they were rude or disruptive they didn't get reinvited and they had 1 less tank on the server to tank for them.

[NihilSustinet]

First part of good root-cause analysis is don't ever blame the user. Design the system to circumvent all the shortcomings you KNOW your user is going to have. Ergo, think of ways to solve the issue that will naturally occur. Some games get rid of chat altogether (bad IMO). Some games design it so content is easy (also bad IMO). I'd say the best way of ensuring tanks don't get flamed for being bad is giving it the DPS treatment. No one cares about slack-ass horrible dps players in random queues because they have so little responsibility and that responsibility is shared amongst 3 people.

Want tanks to not NEED to be good at the game? Make content beatable even if your tank sucks. Make it so tanks aren't solely responsible for the group's pacing, the group's survival, the mob's positioning, etc.

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Hmm, so POE isn't an MMO, either? I'd say your definition is garbage. Any game that has enough people and multiplayer content where you can connect with any of those people freely and openly is an MMO.

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You do that by getting friends (as the tank) and running those dungeons that way. PUGs have certain expectations in that you're expected to already know what you're doing.

Same as rando queue pvp. Do you ever expect that not to be vitriolic? No. Why? Because you're randomly grouping people together and the success of that group is directly dependent on people already being good at the game. No success = people gonna be mad. People mad and it's due to some random person they don't care about being bad = shit talking. Shit talking to someone who is emotionally sensitive = bad feels. Bad feels = less desire to participate.

no, PoE is clearly not an MMO. you are describing multiplayer games. the first M stands for "massively"

[BeepBoo]

If you want to excuse people being crappy as poor game design, go ahead. I can tell you this wasn't NEARLY the issue it has become back when LFG/LFR wasn't a thing.

I've never said anything to the contrary, but blizzard has systematically made the game into what it is by even indulging the idiotic design of huge cross server random match making in the first place. However, even if people weren't assholes, there would still be a disproportionate number of tanks/healers/dps compared to what the content necessitates.

Even if every person that actually wanted to tank was still tanking, there is no way they would constitute 20% of the community. Ergo, it doesn't matter. The design problem is needing to fill very rigid roles instead of letting groups just be 5 random people, a'la dungeons and dragons.

[Thirtyrock]

I've never said anything to the contrary, but blizzard has systematically made the game into what it is by even indulging the idiotic design of huge cross server random match making in the first place. However, even if people weren't assholes, there would still be a disproportionate number of tanks/healers/dps compared to what the content necessitates.

Even if every person that actually wanted to tank was still tanking, there is no way they would constitute 20% of the community. Ergo, it doesn't matter. The design problem is needing to fill very rigid roles instead of letting groups just be 5 random people, a'la dungeons and dragons.

You're describing a game I wouldn't enjoy, that's for sure.

[EasyE]

As said before there is no lack of tank or healers in this game, that is a lack of people that us tank and healers wanna play with because majority of you are horrible people that we dont want to waste my time tanking for.

[Sencha]

Play something else and see if it's better when everyone is dps (protip it's not).