Torghast seems to be the holy grail of "rental power!"

[Kathranis]

I'm surprised so many people are excited for it. The horrific visions were super lame and felt worse than dailies.
Rogue-Likes/Lites are my favorite types of games but it seems super thin here. Looks like typically wow filler stuff for people who can only play an hour or two every few days. But is a quick fix for that addiction. Which is fine if the core RPG game is great. But it seems like they are focusing on stuff like this again and its all hype then meh when it comes about.

I hope I'm surprised and maybe I'm missing something...

Horrific Visions weren't roguelite. There was nothing really random about them apart from affixes.

This is heavily procedural with tons of randomization and replayability, not only due to the layout and encounters changing, but also your power progression options.

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As for replayability, there is a delicate balance they need to find. It can't just be something you play infinitely, because they want you to engage with the rest of the game. They don't want you to live in Torghast. So the logical solution is to make you earn runs through playing other content.

Though that's not necessarily the best option, I think. My gut instinct is rather than earning currency or keys to access it, maybe just have a limited number of runs per day (say 2 or 3) but let them stack over the week so you can save them up, maybe with a way to earn additional runs.

A sort of "soul fatigue" thing could also be done. Playing in Torghast fatigues you, playing in the world refills it, gaining anima (completing quests) fills it faster. Something like that. They could even use the exp bar to track it and have rest areas replenish it faster.

[Big Thanks]

Its 2 years of your life...wake up

2 years

This is one of the worst arguments ive ever seen.
Rental Power sounds like a cool term...but is not an issue

[Omedon]

A structured end point for each character is good.

Totally agree. Me I have 30 120's right now, and for torghast I will almost certainly keep some characters to run alone, and keep some in reserve for runs with friends!

[DemonDays]

Aside from watching Blizzard no1 shill Towellie(yuck). This does look pretty decent.

This is where Rental Powers should stay. In a confined area.

I just really hope this isn't all they're banking on for the entire expansion - an endlessly repeatable tower with the same assets used all expansion long. I hope we still get new things in patches like new dungeons etc.

[Oracles]

I'm only afraid they are gonna lock the game mode behind annoying grinds for keys instead of letting you have fun spending all the time you want inside the game mode.

Ideally it should have no limit to enter and be used as wow's version of "slay the spire" and similar roguelikes like hearthstone's "battlegrounds" with people playing it over end over just for the fun of it because it has infinite replayability.

I don't care about rewards just let me play for like 2 hours whenever I feel like it just like I can queue an island or a battleground with no one stopping me to tell me i need more currency.

[CalamityHeart]

Torghast is by far the one thing I'm most excited about seeing in this expansion, gameplay-wise, and while I haven't been able to see too much of it yet, it's very pleasing to see that it seems to be received well so far.

Visions were the only good thing to come out of 8.3, if you ask me, and the only thing I disliked about it was that I was basically soft-gated from being able to do it whenever I wanted. I hope that this next iteration of solo-friendly endgame content sort of relaxes a little bit on that. A chest or something that you can get every day/week with nice things in it would be nice, but I'd really love the opportunity to just rerun it whenever I wanted, whether I got a big reward out of it or not.

[kaminaris]

Think of it for a sec, if they are not going to limit them in some ways, people are gonna complain about being forced.

Also this wasn't blizzard idea. Community had this idea long before.

But overall, it looks good. I just hope:
1. They will add different assets in mid expansion cause its gonna get boring eventually.
2. It won't be just shadowlands feature and will be extended to new expansions.

[FossilFree]

Is it just me, or does Torghast seem like something out of Diablo?

[VinceVega]

So I'm watching Towelliee streaming torghast (linked on the main page right now) and I have to say, this is rental power done right!

It's a contained environment where players can get diablo levels of overpowered, and it's literally one of the coolest gameplay features I've ever seen in WoW!

It's for one TO five players, operative and exciting word there being "TO."

It's possible that the power gain is in a testing state, but honestly, the place is infinite and is allowed to get subsequently harder and harder, *requiring* the contained, ridiculous OP player(s) to progress.

Expansion to expansion rental powers are a huge and valid talking point of much complaint/debate, but I can't help but feel that Torghast may be this concept finally applied correctly! I'm so hyped for this feature now!

Ohhhh wait till players realize that they will hit a wall they cannot get over... people seem to hate that there is stuff in the game they cannot do because of... well skill...
Like me and PvP^^

Forums will go bonkers including MMOchampion^^

I thought Visions were amazing short term fun. Quick run and done and you can make it more difficult if you want. But poeple shit on them like crazy because they can't finsih 5mask run^^

[Tojara]

The only bad part about visions is there is a cap to how hard you can make them and the acquisition of attempts in there.

Torghast looks fun, not sure how it's anything like Diablo beyond an infinite scaling system like GRs (M+ is like this too). Torghast is literally like Binding of Issac or Risk of Rain, where maps are random, power ups are random and you just try to make the best out of each run. Skill plays a massive factor, but sometimes you just get shitty or godly runs because the layouts and power ups just line up perfectly.

Having a sandbox where you character can literally get ludicrous amounts of power is incredibly fun, and being confined to one space means that they can really go crazy with it.

[Archmage Alodi]

The only concern that I have is having your class feel like shit after coming out of torghast.

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Ohhhh wait till players realize that they will hit a wall they cannot get over... people seem to hate that there is stuff in the game they cannot do because of... well skill...
Like me and PvP^^

Forums will go bonkers including MMOchampion^^

I thought Visions were amazing short term fun. Quick run and done and you can make it more difficult if you want. But poeple shit on them like crazy because they can't finsih 5mask run^^

I'm shitting on visions because I've been doing 5 masks with no orbs in last month or so, it's just too easy.

[VinceVega]

The only concern that I have is having your class feel like shit after coming out of torghast.

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I'm shitting on visions because I've been doing 5 masks with no orbs in last month or so, it's just too easy.

Well yes for many it is. For me too. But finshing it is tied to progression. So you cannot make them unreachable. But the 5 mask run is still too difficult for the majority of players.

[Gatto]

Seems really good.

However, I wonder if it would be mandatory or not.
The concerns are towards raiders and pvpers.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Think of it for a sec, if they are not going to limit them in some ways, people are gonna complain about being forced.

Also this wasn't blizzard idea. Community had this idea long before.

How would this be forced if the rewards are capped anyway? Without TF there is also no reason to run it for lower rewards endlessly.

"Because I feel I have to get better by improving my skill" was NEVER EVER a cause for people to feel forced to do anything. The raiding scene has proven that for 15 years straight.

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Seems really good.

However, I wonder if it would be mandatory or not.
The concerns are towards raiders and pvpers.

You will most likely have to run a set number of floors until you fill your weekly quota for the legendary crafting mats, anima and soulbind currency.

The big difference so far is that unlike islands, this one actually seems to be fun in some regard at least. It will remain to be seen if you can get the resources via other means as well, but Torghast is a central piece of endgame progression and a large part of the story (you go there to rescue souls along the way and all that).

[Kokolums]

Torghast should lead to massive increases in botting.

Most bots are discovered, caught, and punished because other players see it in the open world. Torghast is a complex game system enclosed in instanced play. That means no-one can report them. And blizzard is lax at best looking for bots on their own. Botting might very well go mainstream with Torghast. Maybe this is how WoW dies: it devolves from a vast open world filled with players to a bunch of solo instanced content filled with bots.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Torghast should lead to massive increases in botting.

Most bots are discovered, caught, and punished because other players see it in the open world. Torghast is a complex game system enclosed in instanced play. That means no-one can report them. And blizzard is lax at best looking for bots on their own. Botting might very well go mainstream with Torghast. Maybe this is how WoW dies: it devolves from a vast open world filled with players to a bunch of solo instanced content filled with bots.

That's like saying there is a massive botting problem in heroic dungeons..lol.

[Kokolums]

That's like saying there is a massive botting problem in heroic dungeons..lol.

Heroic dungeons are strictly a group activity so its much harder to bot. Torghast *can* be run solo. So they will be run solo a lot. And then people will bot them to hell.

[Selastan]

I wonder what Torghast will be like in future expansions. Imagine coming back at level 100, then getting to a floor that actually gives you trouble.

[owbu]

The eternal cycle of definitions.

A term describes something that is wrong precisely and becomes popular. People start to attach it to more and more other things they don't like. The term starts to lose all meaning.

See also grind, time gated, MAUs and clunky.


Next up: why buffs should be removed from the game because they are borrowed power.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Heroic dungeons are strictly a group activity so its much harder to bot. Torghast *can* be run solo. So they will be run solo a lot. And then people will bot them to hell.

Rubbish. If botters wanted to farm it efficiently they'd multibox the shit out of it. Not even sure what they would be farming there with the intended caps and all that. Also you seriously overestimate the capabilities of bots if you think they can breeze through torghast, all the traps alone, not to mention the randomized layouts make this quite a bit harder than your run of the mill pathing bot that farms anchorweed and stands still and fishes till the end of time. Edit: If it isn't clear, you pretty much claim that complex dungeon level gameplay will be botted because you can do them alone. If you could bot dungeon level content that easily, then there would be guilds already doing that.